Agree with you. Higher velocity is not a bad thing, as long as the bullet is up to it`s mission; reach vital organs.Main reason I wrote this was that I can not believe that the difference between the 444 and the 45/70 can be that noticeable as someone claims.

Norwegian; The difference is not noticeable with "same weight" bullets. The 45-70 gets the edge with bullets up in the 500 grain class, but they lose their power potential (energy and velocity) so fast that it relegates heavy bullet use to closer distances.............besides, if someone needs a bullet heavier than 400 grains or so to kill something................."A 400 grain bullet at 2150 will take ANY game animal on earth under ANY conditions". John Taylor said that and I do not dispute his word. Look at all the old black powder cartridges that were used for African big game/LDG prior to 1880..........they were anemic compared to the 444, yet, they got the job done. Frederick Selous's favorite rifle was the 450 BPE (Black Powder Express)...He took thousands of head of game with that rifle....to the point that he wore it out, and had to replace it!!!! The 450 BPE shot a 365 grain bullet at 1750 fps, and it was considered to be "THE" rifle for all large game world wide. About 1890 or so the 450-400 Nitro Express came on the scene and it made all previous cartridges look meek..........its ballistics: a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps.

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"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

well, not exactly. the 510g (approx) postell bullet has been a standard 1000yd accuracy load for a hundred years, or so. the article 45/70 at One Mile proved high penetration even at that distance. and they were probably subsonic all the way.

I guess the question might turn around this proposition. Would you rather be shot with a 240g 44 bullet or a 525g 45 bullet at 1000 yards. Comparing like kinds of bullets of course.

It's never completely simple. The 325g .44 was my deer round and a lot of them were dead before they hit the ground. That load was under 1200 fps, never failed, blew up hearts the same way a .338 does, and produced a lot of venison.

BUT

I was never confident that it was gonna stop a charging bear.

Regards,

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..., Grizz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI&feature=relmfu

http://www.brandtdary.com/goodtest.php

Griz; I think "stopping" and "killing" are two entirely different areas of terminal ballistics. A slow, bullet that penetrates will kill, but, as you said, will it "stop". In my opinion, there has to be terminal impact force exerted on the animal as well. It may not add anything to the killing process, but I am sure it aids in the stopping process.

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"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

But will it stop unless you hit the brain or neck? I mean any bullet wich is up to do that job, no matter what type of caliber, will kill the animal before it hits the ground. In south of Norway, were i live, we probably had one of the biggest moose populations in the world during the eighties and nineties, so I`ve witnessed a few moose kills, and heard stories about many. But i can`t think of one episode were a moose has dropped dead instantly upon impact, unless it was hit in the head or neck.
Anyway, I`m a winchester 444 owner myself, and I have to thank you guys in here, cause it was all the interesting reading on these forums that convinced me into getting one. The more I shoot it, the more i like it:-)

Exactly right. To stop an animal you have to make the CNS shot and disconnect the electrical system.

A heart-shot bear can kill you before it dies, it happens. This is why I value throw-weight and proper bullet construction.

Which is Flat Top's point about stopping an animal is different than killing it. It's killing it RIGHT NOW!

Best
Grizz

Norwegian and Griz; I took a deer this year with a neck shot (with my Peashooter 444). the bullet did not hit the spine or the artery to the brain....but the deer dropped instantly...at the spot of the shot. The bullet zipped right through the neck (it was a BTB 325 LCMNGC at 2096 fps). The force of the impact, speed of the bullet at impact, weight, and shape of the bullet, etc, produced such trauma that even though the bullet didnt hit a vital spot, it came close enough to the artery to burst it, and close enough to the spine to stun the nervous system, and "stop" the deer.....the deer was dead within 5 seconds after the shot.

Heavy and slow will kill, but, I think that "power" or"terminal impact force" has its place in the overall scheme of things as I witnessed with this deer kill.......but, that is just my opinion.

Depending on the type of game you expect to encounter, the distances of your shots, and the conditions you would hunt under, would dictate how much bullet weight and power you would need to get the job done.

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"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

375's are the preferred choice! But shoot with what you are comfortable with and premium ammunition.

As far as the African Big 5 didn't the Rough Rider Teddy take over the 405 and get the Big 5?

My buddy took a B&C bear this year and used 375 Ruger and 300 grain Nosler partitions, I won't say how many he shot but the 1st one did hit the shoulder!

Holy Cow! The Big Five with a .444 Marlin, dream on darlin. Nah, I'll pass on this one for sure gents. Now perhaps I might go the 45/70 way of things but I'll be content to knock over hogs and deer with 1895 Marlin Triple 4. Remember there is a big difference between a moutain Grizz at 350 pounds verses a full blown big brown (Grizzly) at 12 to 1500 pounds. The Big Five is out of the question but it does make for interesting "barber shop" conversation on a cold miserable day.

I want a bear gun that can in fact brake both shoulders of that bruin, so it will "not run away and hide". This starts with a model 70 Winchester rifle in caliber .375H&H. I used the .375-Weatherby in that model 70 Winchester, with a 300 grn bullet, backed up by 87 grns of IMR-4831 powder, going 2700-fps, this is 4850 lbs of energy at the muzzle. Mr. Morris Tolfison once told me: If your gonna hunt the big bears (meaning browns) then best you bring along a model 70 Winchester (control round fed magazine) in .375H&H!

I have for the last 20 years or so, carried a model 70 Winchester in the .416-caliber for big bears and African planes game as well because it will break both shoulders and keep on trucking no matter what size bear or other big critter comes around the corner. I once saw a bullet that was 400 grns and went 22 feet through the body of a big tusker from the South end to the front right hand tusk. Now gents that is a bunch of penetration.

I'd use something bigger than a 444... I'd prefer a 45-70 loaded up to 45 Marlin power range, if I had to use one of my lever guns. I tried with my Marlin 444 with a 310 grain cast and it shot about as well as anything else (it was the only cast bullet that i got to shoot well enough for hunting). I also tried the 265 grain Hornady and others. I didn't have enough confidence in the rifle and I sold it. I never tried it on anything that would bite. After reading the great attributes for this combo from the above cimments, I wonder if I missed out on something???

At the time I sold that 444 I'd use a 30-06 with 200 grain Nosler Partitions before that 444. Today my first choice would be my 338 Win Mag with 250 grain Noslers over anything in my safe, but I'd consider some of the new premium bullets also.

Flattop, I am very found of the .444 Marlin 1895 I own and hunt with but I sure would not go up against any dangerous game in Africa, not even with Beartooth bullets in the gun. The 45/70 and Beartooth bullets, you betcha because they have more weight and penetrate deeper.

A side from that my African rifles are #1 a .375-Weatherby using 300 grn bullets. #2 A 470-Capstick and 400 grain bullet. Last but not least, a rifle that is expensive to shoot mind you. This is a 500-Jeffery with 600 grn bullets. Now these are indeed big enough for all of Africa's game.

2bits; OK! how about this. I have been working with a 445 grain bullet in the 444. Although I really like the new 410 grain Safari bullet that Marshall made for me in the Safari Grade 444, I decided to start a new project with the 445 grain bullet.....I call it the "Ultimate Buffalo Rifle". With my Safari Grade modification, and a a barrel change to 30 to 32 inches and a 1-18 twist, I can send that 445 (at 2250 fps), or substitute it for a 510 grain grain bullet (at 2150 fps), and get 5000+ ft lbs. Now I know there will be naysayers, and I have dealt with this before, when I developed the Peashooter and the Safari Grade 444 modifications (4000+ ft lbs), but, I dont pay them no mind anymore, because I have come to realize that the 444 has a lot more to offer than anybody ever realized....and, this is a heck of a lot more power than the 45-70 or the 450 Marlin can develop in a Marlin lever gun....and, its safe! I do not have to use max charges to get these numbers! Here is a photo of the 445, and Marshalls new Safari 410. Both have a .550 nose to crimp....a loaded cartridge, and a factory length cartridge. I have reported on the Safari Grade 444 on this forum, and, when the Ultimate Buffalo Rifle project is done, I will report on that here as well.

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"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, that a .444 lever gun loaded with the proper bullet (HARDCAST PILE DRIVERS) will knock a big grizzly on it's ARSE and it won't be getting up to run off, if the hunter hits the vitals. You simply have to look at the Beartooth Bullets available for that .444 caliber and you will see as I did when fired into wet (dripping wet) newprint at 15 ft.

Great info. Flat Top

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1965 444
1970 444
1990 444ss
2007 444
2007 450xlr
2001 45/70
1977 1894 44 Mag
1978 1894 44 Mag
2006 1894 SS 44 Mag

I've read this entire thread and I will point out one thing- FT's 444 is not a std issue 444, so technically it won't equal the 45/70 when comparing hot load to hot load in factory persuasion rifles, but I know very well what he has done to get this thing to do what he wanted, and I also know it'll knock a bear of any size onto it's hiennie as long as he hits the vitals or CNS. It will break large bones just fine with good cast bullets like he uses, and penetrate very well. With proper bullets it would do for most any animal in Africa as well. I'd rather have my 404 or 458 Lott for African animals or even brownies, but I wouldn't feel undergunned for very many animals with his version of the 444.

Ft lbs don't kill by themselves and neither does speed or momentum or any other whizz-bang formula. A bullet that willl penetrate and make a hole through the important parts does (and preferably exit even on bad angles), and the larger that hole, the more damage it does and the faster it allows the vital parts to bleed out or quit working altogether and cause death.

In spite of the posts in this thread, there is one thing that is certain, when you speak of hunting dangerous game animals. "STOPPING POWER" certainly must rein "supreme"!!!

If you can not stop that bear coming at you like a runnaway freight train, you are in big trouble. One must turn out the lights on all of those dangerous animal types first and foremost.

To put 2 shots through an enraged bears heart at 20 or 30 ft, just might end up with YOU being killed by the grizzly's paw swing. So always thing STOP as you first goal and then go kill the bear.

I was fortunate to meet that Biologist and I forget what other education awards he obtained over his years. However, he finally convinced his follow educated people that Grizzly Bears and those very large coastal Browns Bears, where indeed one in the same species.

He himself that summer was attacked by a large grizzly at his campsight. He was shaving and went to through the water in his basin, on some bushes just like he had been doing since he arrrived in the upper mountains. This time a bear was behind them and swung his forearm and giant paw down on him. He lost his eye, half his face and bicep muscle in in his arm. He sustained severa bits through his pelvis and legs.

This bear buried him halfway right there and had it not been for the local ranger checking on him. He would have died surely. Bears are no doubt big, very fast, easy to anger and will eat you as well. Carry the biggest gun you can handle and shoot well in a hurry.