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  #1  
Old 09-16-2012, 03:39 PM
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Question .50 AK or .416 when TSHTF


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OK...have spoke to lots of guys and looked at lots of data.
We know shot placement rules, that is a given, and bullet construction 2nd...given those things are taken care of, and all else equal;
what would you rather have in your hands & why, when a grizzly charges from 50 yds. or less...
a .50 Alaskan lever-gun or a .416 bolt-action rifle, not just the "action" type, but even more so the CALIBER?
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  #2  
Old 09-16-2012, 04:02 PM
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At 50 yards the rifle accuracy isn't as important as the shooters accuracy, so the inherent accuracy of a bolt gun is lost.

again if a griz is charging, you will only have time for one good shot...so the faster lever action plus is gone.

Either the 416 rem (or Roy) is plenty of gun with a good shot. So is the 50-348 IF that is what you mean by the 50 Alaskan.

416 bullet selection is probably better than any 50 cal bullet selection. so the 416 gets the nod....I like the 400 grain FMJ Hornady in a 416 mag.

All my bear have been killed over 50 yards, and the 50 yard ones were heading away...fast. I hunt a 416 mag. with a 400 grain hornady in the rem mag and a 350 grain Speer mag-tip in the 416 Weatherby.

My big lever gun is just a 348 win m71. But i trust that at 50 yards on a inland griz with some good handloads (most factories are 200 grain deer loads)

I really don't see a difference, it would depend upon the shooters comfort level.
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  #3  
Old 09-16-2012, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryS View Post
At 50 yards the rifle accuracy isn't as important as the shooters accuracy, so the inherent accuracy of a bolt gun is lost.

again if a griz is charging, you will only have time for one good shot...so the faster lever action plus is gone.

Either the 416 rem (or Roy) is plenty of gun with a good shot. So is the 50-348 IF that is what you mean by the 50 Alaskan.

416 bullet selection is probably better than any 50 cal bullet selection. so the 416 gets the nod....I like the 400 grain FMJ Hornady in a 416 mag.

All my bear have been killed over 50 yards, and the 50 yard ones were heading away...fast. I hunt a 416 mag. with a 400 grain hornady in the rem mag and a 350 grain Speer mag-tip in the 416 Weatherby.

My big lever gun is just a 348 win m71. But i trust that at 50 yards on a inland griz with some good handloads (most factories are 200 grain deer loads)

I really don't see a difference, it would depend upon the shooters comfort level.
Ok, yes, so your experience and what you are talking about is mostly when you are hunting the bear...
I was talking of the reverse, and I have heard the .50 cal. is a fantastic "stopper" and low velocity with a heavy hard-cast is better than high velocity as in the .416. I know the .4xx are great for penetration of tough skin DG as found in Africa, but bears are not that...just ferocious, tenacious and mean and thought maybe that the bigger hole, the larger wound channel may give an advantage, dunno?
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  #4  
Old 09-17-2012, 07:30 AM
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not hunting either rifle is too heavy to carry any distance with other outdoor activities. Pepper spray is a better carry/deterent...and it doesn't raise charges or shooting a grizzly illegally. Usually, a 50 yard dead grizzly (aka 'charging') will bring charges and investigation.

bled out is a thing that likes a large blood channel. charging animals don't give a person a chance to see it bleed out. You want full penetration, so FMJ or stout bullet woould be the thing to use.

i know that a lot of bear investigators like the Model 1100 with slugs , IF they had to stop a charge, heavy slugs and 5 shot capacity. And it can be loaded with rubber bullets it one desires.
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  #5  
Old 09-18-2012, 05:45 PM
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Location: Sitka, Alaska
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Our Sitka brown bears can motor along at 30-35mph when the mood suits them, and they're agile as cats, but for an unlikely though possible in-your-face HOLY S**T! bear encounter when we're out hiking or berry picking I prefer carrying a Remington 870 Magnum loaded with slugs, even though we do have a .375 H&H and .416 Rigby in our gun racks. We also carry pepper spray - horrible stuff (mind the wind direction) but it does work.
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  #6  
Old 09-19-2012, 11:44 AM
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p.s. to previous...

Just for the heck of it I did the time and distance math for a Sitka brownie charging at 30-35mph from 50 yards out. From the time the starter's flag dropped you'd have half a ton of bear arriving in your lap within 2.94-3.57 seconds.
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  #7  
Old 09-21-2012, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by nmckenzie View Post
Just for the heck of it I did the time and distance math for a Sitka brownie charging at 30-35mph from 50 yards out. From the time the starter's flag dropped you'd have half a ton of bear arriving in your lap within 2.94-3.57 seconds.
Then, in that case, I would want my Benelli M2 3Gun or my M4 H2O loaded with Brenneke Black Magic 3" magnum slugs to put the best 6 or 7 aimed slugs in that bear ( in 3 seconds, the Benelli can fire the whole 8+1 mag) easily.
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  #8  
Old 09-21-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sig45elite View Post
Then, in that case, I would want my Benelli M2 3Gun or my M4 H2O loaded with Brenneke Black Magic 3" magnum slugs to put the best 6 or 7 aimed slugs in that bear ( in 3 seconds, the Benelli can fire the whole 8+1 mag) easily.
Good choice. Our PD responds to "naughty bear" calls on a fairly regular basis. Generally these involve nothing more than a garbage can that's being turned into a chew toy by a bear rummaging for leftovers, or a momma with cubs taking a shortcut through someone's yard, but the possibility of things going sour is always there. Thus, when responding to these calls a 12ga is always close to hand, and I believe the slugs they're loaded with are Brenneke Mags.
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  #9  
Old 09-21-2012, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by nmckenzie View Post
Good choice. Our PD responds to "naughty bear" calls on a fairly regular basis. Generally these involve nothing more than a garbage can that's being turned into a chew toy by a bear rummaging for leftovers, or a momma with cubs taking a shortcut through someone's yard, but the possibility of things going sour is always there. Thus, when responding to these calls a 12ga is always close to hand, and I believe the slugs they're loaded with are Brenneke Mags.
Are you with the PD there?
Glad to here it...I get lots of flack, on other forums when I mention SG's & Brenneke or Dixie slugs.
The armchair rocket scientists or rather "Great White Hunter" bwana chiefs ...say SG slugs are not even close to rifle rounds, something about "sectional density" but I believe that Brenneke are very much like hard-cast and have deep penetration?
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  #10  
Old 09-21-2012, 05:48 PM
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Nope, not PD, just a retired gunsmith. Living on an island that boasts 14 miles of paved road and a small population you get to know the details of how things work.
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  #11  
Old 09-27-2012, 06:53 PM
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Location: interior,alaska
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Nmckenzie spot is on bears can flat move when they take a notion and 12 gauge is hard to beat up close and personal.Ihave a few mining friends that swear buy shotgun.One of my friends mining cohort.shot a bear breaking into his cabin(shotgun)Nuisance bears if t hey can't be run off they'll use a shotgun or rifle whatever the situation dictates.The 416 or 50 alaskan?Either will do the job,this being hypothetical question,probally the rifle I could handle the best.I spooked a few bear while hunting,stalking moose.ONE encounter particular encounter stands out while hunting.I was walking back from stand at dusk when I heard some thrashing about.I thought it might be a bull so I went to investigate.I come around a bend on a trail I walking on there's about 7ft bear about 25 -30ft away.I pull up my rifle he or she notices me..I think should I or shouldn't I shoot it.It took off like a shot plowing thru willows and birch trees ,sapling like it was grass.I had my rifle shouldered and would got off one shot if it tried to go at me.AND if I didn't have shouldered and came at me....There was no way I'd be able to get off a shot.Most bears will avoid human contact.I could go on and on but I'd be getting off topic

Last edited by hntfsh; 09-27-2012 at 06:55 PM.
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  #12  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:55 PM
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I have shot a lot of big game animals with a .416-Remington magnum in a model 70 Winchester but when it comes to Big Bears, I like the added insurance that the .458 Winchester mag gives or it's big brother the .458-Lott caliber. It makes a bigger wound channel, hits harder and more kinetic energy to the animal.
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  #13  
Old 12-15-2012, 03:06 AM
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Then, in that case, I would want my Benelli M2 3Gun or my M4 H2O loaded with Brenneke Black Magic 3" magnum slugs to put the best 6 or 7 aimed slugs in that bear ( in 3 seconds, the Benelli can fire the whole 8+1 mag) easily.
The question there is not how fast the gun will fire; it is "Can you bring the gun into a shooting position and hit a target moving over broken, wooded ground at 30-35 mph?"
Preferably you want your hits in the CNS.
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Last edited by Pete D.; 08-10-2014 at 02:53 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-09-2014, 09:16 PM
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Location: Hoonah, Alaska and Glennallen Alaska.
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Oh boy, another shotgun bear protection thread. . Solids aren't the greatest bullet for brown bear. I use the 416s and 458s . All bolt guns ! Been charged dozens of times. Most were bluff charges. If the 416s and 458 didn't work great I wouldn't be here typing this. . Anyone want to prove how.great a shotgun works on brown bear, go for it. But when they disappear into the brush, you take your sh-tgun in and kill it. With the 416s and 458s a light for caliber monometal expanding bullet at high velocity work awesome.
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  #15  
Old 08-13-2014, 03:38 PM
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The .416 mag caliber will penetrate deeper then the .458 Win mag or the .458-LOTT. However, the kinetic energy of the .458 calibers is more simply put.

Now any of these calibers will penetrate more than needed to stop a big bear. These rifles are usually heavy guns in the 10 pound range. One needs to practice a lot in order to be able to bring that rifle up quickly and work the bolt, without taking the rifle down from the shoulder for the 2nd shot. Now those big bears have been timed at 3.8 seconds for 40 yards. This is faster than the fastest NFL running back in the league.
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  #16  
Old 08-14-2014, 11:16 PM
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Having had and used 4 416 s and a bunch of 458 s 5 or 6 of them. I can garrentee you the 416 does not out penetrate the 458 .
Yes it takes lots of practice to be a good fast shot with them. But that's ok. My current 458 weighs 8.5 lbs with express sights and a full magazine. It don't kick too bad. I'm planning on turning it into a Lott. My 458 Lott weighed 9 pounds 2 oz.

Now the 416s are wonderful rounds and all a guy will probably ever need. And, I hope to have another by spring. But there ain't nothing wrong with the 458 s. Both calibers have worked great for me on brown bear. All with expanding bullets.
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  #17  
Old 08-19-2014, 08:15 AM
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it takes brain hits to reliably stop charges, so there's no reason to favor ANY bolt action. If I lived in Alaska, and actively hunted big critters, I'd have an autoloader, probably the Remington, in 308, for the massive amount of practicing I'd want to do, using low cost milsurp ammo.

If, however, I was talking shtf, I'd carry the same M4 , with .22lr conversion unit and suppressor that I'd carry anywhere else. Big critters can be brained with the 223 sp, and they drop like rocks. Small game, subsonic 60 gr Aquila .22 ammo, BB gun type "noise", that's the ticket, and not running out of ammo, not being exhausted by carrying a pointless extra 10-15 lbs of gear, not wearing 5 lbs of concealed armor, cause you're being silly/ focused on the power of your rifle. (and one punk with a .22 does you in).
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  #18  
Old 08-19-2014, 08:18 AM
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grizzlies hit 50 fps in full charge. The attack is more likely to be at night, with you tangled up in your sleeping gear. Ever think about that? :-) You'll probably have your rifle on the sling, and at best, get off one wild shot, cause the charge is likely to start at 50 ft or less. often, the charges are "fake", intended to make you flee. But once you wound the bear, then the fight is to the death.
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  #19  
Old 08-19-2014, 08:20 AM
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for the actual shooting/hunting, I'd want Nosler Partition softpoints. Why lug around something as limited as a 416, when a 308 or o6 has so much more range/verstatility, and the ammo is so much cheaper to practice with (getting the brain hits, swiftly, needed to reliably stop charges. ). I want to be able to reliably take game to 300+ yds,and that's not in the cards with the rds you postulate.
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  #20  
Old 08-19-2014, 08:21 AM
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regardless of where you are, men and dogs are more common attackers, and the men are far, far more dangerous than bears. You want swift repeat hits, regardless.
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