Recently received my first 2 pound Vihtavuori N-110 powder and have started reloading and testing with it. I have a couple questions concerning why Finland data shows approximately 4 grains higher with same weight bullet for max loads than the data published here in the USA. For example Vihtavuori lists that 21.9 grains for max loads with the 240gr bullet while using N-110. Here in the USA most loading data books list right around 18 grains powder for max loads using N-110 with a 240 gr. bullet.
I understand Finland measures their pressures from different locations than does the US; however, the overal concern is safety. I don't care where the pressure was measured I just want to know what is safe for max loads and what the products I'm using can handle. Obviously Finland feels comfortablwe with listing 22 grains.
With the testing I have done thus far, this powder exceeds any powders sold here in the USA. I have always been a Hodgdon fan, but after using N-110 in my 44 Mag and N-550 in my 300 short mag rifle forget it! I put my H4350 on the shelf for rifle reloading. Vihtavuori is great stuff. I called and asked Vihtavuori if they sale to the major players in the factory ammo ( Remmington, Winchester, Federal etc). Their answer was not just yes...but oh yes. So here is my theory if you read between the lines.

My thoughts are that the factories are getting supplied some form of Vihtavuori powder for all rifle and pistol usage and want the "corner on the market". Since they are in the business to sale ammunition, are they getting everbody to agree that max loads are lower than they really should be? This would explain why all the data in the USA is way below what Finland publishes. Why would they do this...well maybe because they want to sale more ammo and if reloaders can equal or top what the factory is putting out then they would sale less ammo.

Also Vihtavuori gives retailers who sale this powder very little mark-up or room for profit. Why??? Well if you had major buyers like those who make factory ammo you can afford to squeeze the middle mans profit. This explains why this powder is so hard to find in the states. Most retailers dont like to carry this product because the profit is just not there. Well isn't this just perfect for the major ammo producers? If the product is not readily available to the public, then how can we meet or exceed what the factory is producing. Don't think for a minute that the powder you buy at the local gun shop is the same powder that the factory is using. Does this bother you like it does me? Why should we settle for average powder when there is powder out there that may have more advantages in some circumstances.

Also with using the load data here in the USA they leave us to exceed max load data just to match factory velocities. Nobody likes the feeling of going over listed data even if it is safe. May not always be true, but for me it has been. Everytime I try and match factory velocites with load data published in the USA (both mag rifles and mag pistols) it is very difficult to say the least when comparing apples to apples. Most reloaders will stop at the max data published in the USA or start buying factory ammo to reach higher velocites than they can get themselves. I myself have tested using Finlands data and have not had any pressure signs above flattened primers. To make a long story short when comparing equal velocities; I received flattened primers sooner using H-110 than I did using N-110. Which tells me that the N-110 can produce higher velocities than the H-110 with lower pressures. Same was true when comparing H4350 to the Vihtavuori N-550.

So what's my point or question?

I want to know why the USA has this great powder "derated" so that the velocities are all showing lower than the velocities reached from powder produced here in the states? Check it out yourself...look at Speers book they list Hodgdons powder H-110 as being the best with higher velocities, but that's only because they have the N-110 derated down to 18 grians with the 240 gr. bullet. Look at the burn rate for both powders...they are not that much different to have N-110 6 grains lower than H-110. I can see 2 grains lower since it is a slightly faster burning powder, but not 6 grains lower. Come on people!!!

Also if buying this powder to reach max safe velocities and to gain all that technology has to offer, it really makes the consumer feel ripped-off when you have a product such as N-110 or any of the Vihtavuori powders, but can not take full advantage of it due to the data listed here in the USA.

Can somebody clear this up? Has anybody thougt this themselves...or am I off the wall? :) I am by no means a expert...just trying to read between the lines.

I was always under the impression that meeting or exceeding the performance of factory loaded ammunition was one of the reasons that we reload our own in the first place, and with the self imposed limits by the factories to safeguard the use of their product in most any gun encountered regardless of its condition, wasn't hard or above safe limits . So I'm not sure if I follow your thoughts on this . I would like to know if as a country, Finland is plauged by the sue anybody at the drop of the hat syndrome that probably is the reason for the "underhand pitch " data most of our companies are publishing(?)


444fitch

Hmmmmmm..................

My 2nd Ed. of VihtVuori manual shows 21.5 gr of N110 for the 240 gr bullet, max load.

Lyman 48th Ed manual says 19.5 gr for same bullet as max.

Speer 13th Ed. manual lists 20.0 gr as max.

Hornady 5th Ed. manual says 21.1 gr is maximum.

Doesn't look like they're all that far off - just about the average spread for various powders for various cartridges by the various reloading manuals.

As far as the other comments - ribbonstone had a pretty good analogy about ammo manufacturers and their component procurement practices in another thread here on the board.

BTW - I'm a confirmed VV powder user, myself. Love that stuff!

I would say that VihtVuouri and Norma have to have the prices set due to import and transportation fees that the american mfg'rs don't. To be competitive with the american brands, they have to set the retail price accordingly. This would result in a smaller profit spread as compared to the domestic products.

I have yet to personally chronograph a factory load that comes near what the factory propaganda says. I generally am able to beat factory loads IN MY RIFLES using published data in handloads.

I never tried VV powders because they're more expensive and I'm satisfied with the powders I use now. I seriously doubt there is any conspiracy to download these powders. Most big manuals are published by bullet companies. They would have no advantage in showing velocities that are slower than need be. Their interest is in selling bullets.

Does "Finland" as a country have anything to do with SAAMI? Different pressure measuring methods do not always give similar results, i.e., C.U.P. does not transfer directly to PSI or vice versa. They might have also been using a slightly different test fixture, or could have been testing a slightly slower lot of powder. I seriously doubt there is any kind of conspiratorial shenanigans involved, the ammo makers have to worry about getting sued if someone so much as sneezes wrong, so maybe our domestic ammo makers are just being more cautious. After all, there are a lot of old guns out there, and if something goes wrong, some lawyer will be rubbing his hands together.
Just remember each gun is an individual, and reloading data is nothing more than a set of guidelines. It is to be taken as ANECDOTAL information. No one makes any promises about your gun, or your components. Defy their recommendations at your own risk.
PJ

Hai Guys,
Being from Europe and using European powders
(yes, even the old american Accurate powder is manufactured in Europe, just for the cause of import fees etc)

I noticed that the maximum to be relaoded is sooner arrived when using a regular maximum form european data.

An example:

Vihtavuori lists 15,3 grains of N-110 to be a maximum
We Put in 16,4 grains of the stuff (.357 with a 158 gr
SJSP bullet)

So I exceed about 8%

When I exceed only 8% using american
data from Accurate (I'm still not impressed by performance)
Having noticed that I can increase about 15%


I guess this is due to the thought the in the USA you are easily sued for anything that can go wrong.
In our region your just a stupid *** if you blow-out your gun due to overloading.


BTW:
Why is the 10 mm AUTO maximum load taken down?
except from G-man not been able to handle the round easy enough?


Ciaoo

NO, in EUROPE we USE the C.I.P. normalisation
in fact is fairly the same as SAAMI, but in detail
different.

I even think that pressure taken the SAAMI way is around the case, and the CIP way is just behind the place where the cartridge headspaces (AUTOLOADER handguns)


ciaooo

Hai Guys,
I noticed that the maximum to be relaoded is sooner arrived when using a regular maximum form european data.

So I exceed about 8%

When I exceed only 8% using american
data from Accurate (I'm still not impressed by performance)
Having noticed that I can increase about 15%

Ciaoo

Harshok that is exactly what I wanted to hear somebody admit for a change. I have found so much conflicting information because everybody is so concerned with covering their butt that it makes it difficult to get the truth or at least closer to it. My testing while looking for pressure signs has always been between 6 and 8 percent higher than USA published data. Didn't have the nerve to go any higher because nobody will tell me what the true max is for any caliber. Never really needed any higher than 8 percent, but it would be nice to hear somebody admit it's doable. As I research I have found many going 10-12 percent higher. I don't need to take full advantage of the safety margin, but it would be nice to have max loads mean max loads. That is what disclosures are for...to keep the attorneys at bay.

Yes I understand why companies have to list it the way they do, but when you truly need 200 fps more out of a particular bullet it would be nice to know somebody else has already been there. All of this wouldn't even be that big of an issue if I didn't live in California. We can't just go purchase any hand gun in the next caliber size up. They have very limited selection of guns to choose from because this stupid DOJ approval process, so when you find what you like in barrel length, it's not always offered in the right caliber. I'm still waiting for the dang .454 Casull to get approved through DOJ so I can get what I need vs. maxing out my 44 Mag. Feel my frustration! :)

Thanks for the info in writting. I'm surprised somebody on this web sight has not tried to delete it already.

Everyone is entitled to express their opinion on the board, .454er - just so long as it is courteous and respectful of the other fellow's as well.

What we, as Moderators try to do is allow a free flow of ideas without anything being posted here that could potentially cause injury or destruction of firearms by someone not understanding all aspects of handloading and taking someone's overloads as safe for their firearms. I think you'll agree this is a most worthwhile goal.

You will find variance in loadings from reloading manual to reloading manual because each used a slightly different setup to develop those loads. Some use universal receivers with removable and varied chambered barrels, which in themselves vary in length. Also, lot to lot differences in stated components will affect the outcome as far as velocity and pressure.

No one will argue the point that in this day of liability suits (your state probably has per capita more liability attorneys than others) the publishers of reloading information will most certainly err on the side of caution. They have no idea of what types of firearms and what condition the loads will be stuffed into any more than the ammo manufactures know the condition and type of the firearm their loaded ammo is going into.

Most generally, my personal findings have been the most accurate loads are those slightly below the published maximums for a given cartridge. I too, have tweaked loads a little above the max listings, only to find flattened and smeared primers, bulged, smokey cases and sticky bolt lift. At this stage of my life, I will concede the publishers have much more equipment to develop practical loadings and will stay within their published parameters. Besides, as stated, generally the best accuracy and consistency is obtained below the maximum.

The biggest banger in my safe is a 45-70 that pushes a 405 grain bullet at some 1950 fps and develops something like 48 lbs of recoil. The .41 Mag handgun boosting 210 gr slugs at 1200 fps satisfies my longing for sore wrists and tingly hands after prolonged shooting. The days when muzzle blast and eye socket jarring recoil impressed me are long over. Today, I shoot for the quiet enjoyment of tailoring ammo that is both accurate and easy on the iron.

What you will do with your personal loading practices is a matter of your personal choice. We request that over maximum (published) loads not be posted on this board.

Thank you for understanding.

At least for the moment, are reasonably free to load whatever combination you desire....if you firmly believe that you can step up by 10%, nothing stopping you from doing so.

As for a secret agreement between powder makers to discredit one particular powder maker...doubt it. Think the US has more reloaders than any other country...proabably also have the largest number of careless reloaders as well. If I were to publish data, would try to publish data that "Bubba" would have to work at to get in serious trouble. Have faith that there are some out there that could manage to blow up a gun with sawdust for powder and chicken fat for bullets.

Most of my shooting is at less than maximum...in fact, all of it is. Have always had the philosphy (can think of it as the "British Philosphy") that if I needed to run a caliber all the way to the absoulte max. to get the performance I needed, what I really needed to do was switch to a bigger round.

[QUOTE= All of this wouldn't even be that big of an issue if I didn't live in California. We can't just go purchase any hand gun in the next caliber size up. I'm still waiting for the dang .454 Casull to get approved through DOJ so I can get what I need vs. maxing out my 44 Mag. Feel my frustration! :)

Thanks for the info in writting. I'm surprised somebody on this web sight has not tried to delete it already.[/QUOTE]

Hayo .454 desirer.

Well, as I do not know what going on with DOJ
(don't even know the meaning),
but having heard of magazine limitations of 10 rnds, and a ban of certain fire-arms.

In the Netherlands things are not better I think.
But maybe that composes another thread.

In order to get the maximum blast we just have to stick to a maximum caliber the shooting club supports.
Elsewise go to a shooting range as a guest shooter and rent
a gun from them.

Beside me on this range a bloke (english english for a guy)
was shooting with a .454 casull Dan Wesson revolver
something abt 8 inch or so (A huge gun anyways).
And I felt sick of the blasts next to me
(indoor ranges, we use over here)

But truly the moderator is right.
Certain guns cannot handle overpowered cartridges, and you'll have to be aware of the capabilities of your particular gun.
But thats the fun of loading UP.
Don't work your way down....


For the other writers on the forum:

YES, the load below maximum is most likely to have the highest accuracy, but the "acoustic feeling" is mighty
important.

ciaooo