Hi all -

I'm new to the forum, just got a Marlin 1895CB/.45-70.
I load for other .45-70s, and like the heavier bullets.
Does anyone have recommendations for 500-525 gr., ESPECIALLY w/3031 or ReLoder7, up to 40k or so?
Also, anyone have ANY experience w/550+ gr. bullets in .45-70 smokeless loads up to that pressure max?

TIA, regards,

I haven't tried anything that heavy in my 45-70, but you might want to move this thread (or re-submit a similar thread) in the Big Bore Lever Action forum. You may run into COL problems with bullets that big in an 1895.

Hi Tom -

I considered that but thought mebbe admins might feel this a more suitable forum for reloading questions.
I'll double post in case I thunk wrong. :-)
Thanks.

regards,

Hi LoneStar -

Good to meet you.
What part of the country you from? :-)

Firstly, big bore/ big bullet is simply "my cup o' tea" for funstuff.
Secondly, I can mod the action to handle longer oal, recoil pad it, weight it, whatever I like, myself.
*I* am no ORDINARY fool - *I* am a high skool gradjooweight! :-)
Thirdly, I hear that BPCR'ers regularly shoot .45/500+'ers @ Mach 1 & better for the far stuff, and they shoot all weekend long. I'm not one o' them perfessionals, but I'm thinking to set up a silhouette range in the yard (for real!). Sounds like great fun, nez c'est pas?

SO......... what loads ya got fer me????? ;-)

regards,

Rigby275,

Welcome aboard. There were a couple of threads on the old Marlin Talk forum about 550 gr loads, but they're long gone. I did get some bullet info from Jae-Bok Young at www.competitor-pistol.com. He has a 550 gr Crater bullet just for the Marlin. Right length and everything. I recall that the posters that tried them thought they were great. They were using H322, H4198, and even H335. You might want to get on the MarlinOwners.com forum and post your ??'s. A lot of old Marlin Talk people there. Look for Reflex264. He's getting into commercial reloading and was looking at the 550 Crater bullet. I will be trying some in my 450 Marlin as soon as I can afford some.

Hi BaBore -

Thanks for the links.

Please keep us posted on your results/progess.
(Mebbe we can entice others to see the beauty of big bullets!) :-)

regards,

I too have had problems finding heavy loads for the 45-70. Currently, I'm using 550 gr. bullets from Mt Baldy bullets. This is a WLNGC that they recommend specifically for the marlin. I have a guide gun. Using 40 gr. of IMR 3031 gives a muzzle velocity of ~1400 fps. I use a 30 inch drop tube and seat the bullet to OAL 2.55 inches.This procedure makes it unnecessary to compress the powder load. I believe this load is safe (in my gun) and have exceeded it (though I won't tell you how much) without difficulty.
As far as recoil, I personally feel that a stout 405 gr. load (2000 fps) has a much more unpleasant recoil -- it hits the shoulder hard and makes the comb slap me on the cheek unless I'm very careful.
If you've been reading these forums much you realize how hard it is to tell if your load is too hot. Personally, when I see what other people are doing/have done, I try to find confirmation in a reloading manual or at least from multiple sources. This has been difficult as I have been unable to find many 550 gr. loads.
I am new to this form, though I have been looking in for quite some time. I decided to join so that I could post this, mostly because I think it's helpful to know what other people are doing out there but I'm also hoping that this will generate input from other people who have had experience so that I can learn something too.
I started shooting 45/70 because I am entranced with the idea of throwing such a big, slow, heavy piece of lead downrange. I've seen what a slow 500 gr. lead bullet can do to a bison and am hoping to use this on brown bear/grizzly bear. I'm not sure there is such a thing as "too powerful" under those circumstances (maybe a bazooka).
This ain't gospel but I hope it helps some.

Hi noexpert -

Wow!!
We must be twins separated at birth! :-)
Good to meet you & welcome aboard.

Thanks for the reply - just the sort of input I hoped for.

I'm still in the process of "setting up" for in-depth testing. The heaviest bullet I have at the moment is 518 fngc from Lee's 500/.457 mould.

I've shot quite a bunch (48.0/IMR3031) at avg. 1685fps from an old H&R "Shikari"/28"/Weav.4x
Recoil is ~42fp (.375 H&Hish) & 25 from the bench is no big deal, but usually sufficient for a given day, IYKWIM.
(I'm ~165# soaking wet).

I originally intended to shoot PP, but it shoots so well and cleanly Alox lubed - no leading - that I haven't gotten around to the PPing (pardon the expression) yet.
Averages ~1.1" @ 100 - best is .75 @ 150 yds.

Keep us updated on your progress, please.

regards,

I use JB's 550 Crater in my Guide Gun at Garrett's velocity's and it doesn't kick as bad as a 405 grain loaded to max by far in my opinion.I started with RL-7 and changed to H-322 and it works really well for 1450 fps or so out of the guide gun without big recoil.Well manageable with know recoil pad.Some use H-335 with good results also and RL-7 works but it is temp sensitive.JB makes a great bullet.The closest thing to Garrett's 540 Hammerhead on the market with a .365 Meplat.Talk about alittle shock to go with the penetration.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

Hey jayco & noexpert -

Just curious why you both load to that velocity range.
Does recoil get bad if faster or does it just "do what you want done" for you?

And for noexpert - if you can answer without violating your scruples, would I be unrealistic to think of 1600 fps w/550 gr.?
I shoot a 500/1685 load comfortably and recoil'd be about the same.


Thanks,

That's easy,I never reload without pressure data from a test barrel.Garrett's 540 grain Hammerhead is loaded to 35,000 PSI or 33,000 CUP or something like that.That gives me some room with a different bullet.Close but not exact.From reading on his web page it seems that the guide gun gives 1450-1475 fps in velocity.In my mind one could take it to 1550 fps in the guide gun to meet his 1550 fps in a 22 inch barrel and be at a max charge in the guide gun which might be 1650 in a 22 inch barrel.But why?He has proven velocity doesn't count when it comes to penetration.

Thru a mistake while reloading I had two that hit over 1600 fps out of the guide gun.I don't think they kick at all like a 405 loaded to max.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

I've reached 1550 fps out of my guide gun w/o unusual kick and no "pressure signs" (for whatever it's worth); this is my planned brown bear load. I too considered Garretts load and was trying to duplicate it. However it is my understanding that different powders give different pressures for the same mv (not to mention in different guns) and I don't know what powder R.G. uses. Therefore to use the same size bullet at the same velocity doesn't necessarily equate with the same pressure.

hi i am buying the marlin 1895g guide gun with the 18in. barrel i was wondering if that could take the presure of the 520gr. garret hammerheads

Rigby 275,

I've never loaded or shot anything over 420 gr in my 45-70 Cowboy. But the 420grain castGC form Precision Cast with 50 grains of Reloader 7 will stop anything you hit. This is a hot load, so be careful, but it's right on at 200 yds. You might want to take it down to 48 grains of RX7, it would still be a very good load.

JimC
:cool:

Hi all -

Not so fast there, lc -

Quote from logcutter:
But why?He {Garrett} has proven velocity doesn't count when it comes to penetration.

He's proven (w/o arguing the definition/applicability) that higher velocity does not ALWAYS = deeper penetration, NOT that velocity doesn't count.
As a matter of fact, it's clear from the article he has posted @ his site that velocity DOES COUNT up to ~1300fps, which he implies results in MAXIMUM penetration.
One MIGHT reasonably ask, then y-n-h_l does he load to 1550ish when that velocity has LESS penetration than 1300fps!
One could suppose that there are factors involved other than JUST penetration.

And THAT is why, in my case.
I want to shoot paper and metal @ long range - penetration or recoil ARE NOT an issue, but trajectory flatness/tof/wind drift are.
So I think my quest for hi-vel/hi-pressure loads is reasonable and legitimate.

And lastly, to extend the olive branch of peace, I very much appreciate the info on your loads - thanks. :-)

regards,

Hi JimC -

As you can see from my last post, I'd like to find sumpin' @/< 44Kish CUP that's dead-on @ 400 with a 3" mid-range! :-)

Thanks for the input.

regards,

hi i am buying the marlin 1895g guide gun with the 18in. barrel i was wondering if that could take the presure of the 520gr. garret hammerheads
Grizzly-Your Guide gun can take Garrett's 540 Grain Hammerheads with ease.The Hammerheads are at 35,000 PSI or 33,000 CUP if I remember correctly.The Marlin Guide gun can handle 40,000 CUP or in the 450 Marlin which is PSI it's SAAMI is 43,500 PSI.I consider his loads a medium load with 28,000 being light and 35,000 being medium with 40,000 being the maximum published pressure for the Guide gun.

Best of luck.Jayco.

Hi all -

Not so fast there, lc -

Quote from logcutter:
But why?He {Garrett} has proven velocity doesn't count when it comes to penetration.

He's proven (w/o arguing the definition/applicability) that higher velocity does not ALWAYS = deeper penetration, NOT that velocity doesn't count.
As a matter of fact, it's clear from the article he has posted @ his site that velocity DOES COUNT up to ~1300fps, which he implies results in MAXIMUM penetration.
One MIGHT reasonably ask, then y-n-h_l does he load to 1550ish when that velocity has LESS penetration than 1300fps!
One could suppose that there are factors involved other than JUST penetration.

And THAT is why, in my case.
I want to shoot paper and metal @ long range - penetration or recoil ARE NOT an issue, but trajectory flatness/tof/wind drift are.
So I think my quest for hi-vel/hi-pressure loads is reasonable and legitimate.

And lastly, to extend the olive branch of peace, I very much appreciate the info on your loads - thanks. :-)

regards,


Rigby-If your after tragectory and performance in the 45-70/450 Marlin -Load it up with RL-7 and a 300 Nosler.It out penetrated a .375 H&H with the same 300 Nosler in test run by Garrett Cartridges.Rick Jaimeson tested it in a 24 inch barrel and then the 18.5 inch Guide Gun and it was 2488 fps out of the 24 with 4124 ft lbs of energy and in the Guide Gun it averaged 2333 fps and 3626 ft lbs of energy at only 40,600 PSI.Hard to beat in my opinion.As you know,the 375 H&H speaks for itself and to have a lever gun with the same 300 Nosler but in .458 caliber out penetrate it, well what more could you want?In the 24 inch barrell it is within reach of the African minimum for Dangerous game.Don't get anybetter than that especially for the states.

Jayco.

Hey jayco -

Now THAT'S what I call good load info!
With that load @ 40.6K out of a 24"er -
WHAT'LL it do at 44K outa the CB's 26"???!!! :-)

Seriously tho, I'm not too surprised by the energy figures, but I'd never thunk it'd out-penetrate.

Don't have the SD's handy for those bullets, I'm thinking ~.200/.45 & .310/.375, but that's just amazing perfomance for the stubbie.

Read not long ago an article on 'woods loads' and it said that high SD bullets (6.5/140, .30/190 etc.) were better brushbusters than .35Rem, .44Mag, etc., because their high SD's meant better penetration - wood OR tissue.
The Garrett tests sure indicate SUMPIN' other than just SD is involved!

Now I gotta run this thru a ballistics program - See if I can get that 3" mid-range, 400 yd mpbr I'm lookin' for! :-)

regards,

Rigby-You haven't read your post like me-Read this one.

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2060
Jayco.

...
Now I gotta run this thru a ballistics program - See if I can get that 3" mid-range, 400 yd mpbr I'm lookin' for! :-)

...Rigby -

Try the Speer 300g UCHP -- it has a slightly higher Ballistic Coefficient. If you push it to 4500fps you'll only be 27 yards short of your goal. :D

Hi all -

jayco - sorry it took so long to get this reply out, but it took me a coupla minutes to get back in the chair after reading Coyote Hunter's little note! :-)

Just got back from a visit to the "MAX PRESSURE" thread - it's wearin' me OUT runnin' back & forth - and you'll find my reaction to the levergunner discussion there (you're probably in better shape for another trip than I am).

Coyote Hunter - think an Elmer Keith-hatful of Red Dot'd do it? :-)

regards,

jayco -

I've wandered around on Garrett's site (great place for a .45-70'er to visit!) and couldn't find anything on the .375/.45-70 penetration tests you mentioned .

Could you provide a link?

Thanks.

regards,

These are warm 45-70 loads for the 1895 Marlin. I'd have to reference some of my reloading books but I'd guess they were 40k psi and less.

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm

These are warm 45-70 loads for the 1895 Marlin. I'd have to reference some of my reloading books but I'd guess they were 40k psi and less.

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm

Joe D'Alessandro admits his maximum loads are over 40,000 PSI and some may approach 45,000 PSI.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

Hi all -

Since opening this thread, I've heard & learned a lot from you guy's (person's) experiences and the links you've provided.

In light of my edikashun, I'd like to refocus this discussion, if I can herd you folks toward the corral :

LOADING HEAVIER THAN 500 GR BULLETS IN THE.45-70

I have a Lee mould that throws 518gr, GC'd.
I shoot it @1680fps instrumental avg.in a "Shikari". 28" barrel.
Guestimated pressure is <40Kpsi.
Accuracy is <1 1/4" @ 100 yds.

If you think I'm dumb to do it : that's fine.
If you wouldn't/don't do it : that's fine.
If you shoot lighter bullets : that's fine.
If you shoot a .308 : that's fine.
If you drive an SUV : that's fine.
If Venus has a retrograde motion : that's fine.

Concern for my mental health and future physical well-being is appreciated, your views on other stuff are interesting, but:

Does anyone have load info on 500+gr loads @ 40Kpsi max in the .45-70, especially a Marlin 1895CB? :-)

regards,

How long is that bullet again?

On light of the scarcity of real data on the subject, I asked a friend w/QuickLOAD to help out.
I understand that Powley methods have less of that uncanny precision guestimation ability when dealing with straighwalls, so take this with your proverbial grain of salt.
IF your 518g is about 1.24" long, and IF you seat it to 2.6" COL, and IF QuickLOAD knows what it's talking about, and IF there were no typos there or here, then you might be a redneck shooting 42.5g of 3031 at about 1630 fps, at 31.5k psi.
Further, IF the above, but a 550g that's 1.32" long, then even more of a redneck, 40g, 1550 fps and 31.6k psi.
Now, I have no idea as to the accuracy of any of this, nor to the max COL your bullets will load in your gun.
But I can say if these figures are close, you may not get much in return for pushing that 40k mark.
Those pressures seem remarkably, pleasingly low for those velocities. (Which I'm sure will just beg the question....)
At any rate, in your shoes, I'd load up the 3031 and see how close to the charge/velocity I get, then you'd at least have a few bearings to work with.
Good luck!

Friendly -

In fact, the bullet is 1.24", but in the "Shikari" COL is 2.72".
And in (no doubt soon-controversial) fact, I load 48.0gr/3031.

EVERYONE PLEASE NOTE -
I am not recommending this load to anyone!
But, in addition to 400+ lighter loads, I've shot ~120 of these.
There has been NO measurable headspace increase (I'll ask that you trust I know how to determine that) and no perceptible wear.

I'm certainly curious about the pressure QL indicates for this load.

Thanks.
p.s. - thanks for the uneditorialized reponse :-)
Are you really in Oregon? (no connection to any of the above)

regards,

BTW and for the public record, that data was actually for a COL of 2.675" not 2.6", so the program would have given slightly higher pressures.
And I have heard from a number of folks that have used this program that, amazing as it is otherwise, it fails to hit the nail when using straightwalled cases.
I don't own it, and haven't done any experimenting to verify/disprove. Just wanted to throw in the caveat.
Cheers!

Has anyone tried AA 5744 on warmer loads with heavy bullets? Just curious...

OK. So, not sure if you (or anyone following this) cares for "virtual load data," but according to my own working of H Powell's formula (via SuggestALoad), a 550g FNGC (specifically, the one I designed, 65% meplat, .49" crimp to end of bullet, 1.286" long) when seated to 2.6" can be expected to go close to 1600 fps under 40k CUP (not psi) using a max of 40g of 3031 or H322 around there.
I've always seen CUP as lower than psi, by like 1/7 or so, which really makes me question QUICKload's abi;ity to figure on straight cases.
At any rate, it sure seems there's reason to believe you could sling that sucker plenty fast enough.
Definitely worth a $50 mold for experimenting.
(Mountain Mold aluminum 1-cavity = $50.)
I suppose a sensible thing might be to try to buy a handful off some BP shooters, though, just to see what you're getting at.
Also, recommended twist rate for a bullet this size is 1 in 15".

Well, if it won't kill, it oughta at least push 'em out of the way!

I like the sound of it.

Note - if I'uz sensible, would I want anything like that in the first place? :-)

regards,

That is 1550 at the muzzle. 1300 fps impact for max penetration. 1550fps muzzle = 1300fps at 50 - 75 yards is my guess.

Hey Freindly-I found that interesting.Thanks.I never have messed with that stuff and always wondered.I have always thought doing the old knotknot +knotknot =Knotknot that the 550 grain could be driven to 1550 fps in the Guide Gun and still be a hair under 40,000 CUP?I am sticking at 1450-75 fps for now but if I have the time I might work up 10 or so to 1550 fps just to have on hand for longer shots etc.

I am so far behind on my Reloading because of the nasty weather I doubt I'll ever get caught up.I have 4 different bullets in 45-70 and .454 to work up that I haven't even tried yet.

Thanks again......Jayco.

I posted some threads in the hand loading section on 45-70. My favorite load:

Hornady 350 Grain RN
Hodgdon Varget 58.0 grains
Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primer

These in the photo below are pretty stout loads, so are the ones above for that matter.

Master Cast 500 grain RNFP
Re#7 41.5 grains (don't know if any more will fit in)
Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primer


http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v69/GuideGun/500_Grain_Load.jpg

http://www.realguns.com is a good link for 45-70 loads.