I've been on my merry way loading my 45-90 with Accurate 5744 with data found on their website. But Wednesday I picked up the 48th edition of the Lyman Reloading manual which has load data for alot of the old straight wall cases. But now I'm confused...

Accurate lists a 405 grain PB bullet starting off with 31.5 grains of 5744 at 1411 FPS. The high end is 35 grains at 1534 FPS. No pressure data listed.

However, the Lyman manual has a 400 grain bullet starting with 38.0! grains at 1637 fps at 22,900 CUP. The high end is 42.5 grains at 1782 with 26,600 cup! They 'start' 3 grains higher than the AA loads! But the plot thickens. Lyman goes on with a 500 grainer, starting with 39 grains at 1526 fps at 18,600 cup and ending with 43 grains at 1667 fps at 26,600 cup. That's more powder for a heavier bullet with less pressure? The crowning glory is a 535 grain starting with 40! grains at 1542 fps with 21,800 cup and ending with 43 grains at 1633 with 25,400 cup. I feel like I'm missing something here. Both the 500 grain and the 535 grain start and end with more powder than the 405, and both have less pressures with a bigger bullet. What am I missing here. I was going along with an AA load that seems to be a punk load in the Lyman book. I was up to 33.5 grains and was playing with seating depth and crimp, but now it looks like I could go alot higher than originally planned. I'm just not sure what to think or where to go from here...

Any ideas or explanations as to what I'm missing here? Appears that if I could get a 750 grain bullet, I could fill the case entirely and get almost no pressure...

TIA for any replies

A couple of questions come to mind. Was the 400 grain bullet info for a jacketed bullet? Jacketed will raise pressure for a similar load compared to cast.

What gun are you using the loads in?

All of the loads mentioned are fairly low pressure, and suitable for older type guns in good condition (though may be a bit more than should be used in trapdoor springfields). If you have a gun that is up to it, like a Winchester 86 or a new Shiloh (not import)Sharps the 45/90 can be loaded to a bit more than the top 45/70 loads, or TO the same level with less pressure.

Cast bullets for all of them. Nothing jacketed for the 45-90 listed. Shooting it out of a Pedersoli Sharps. I was thinking maybe the Accurate Arms is listed safe for the older levers because of their lower numbers...

Universal reciever, a 29 1/2" barrel, pressure gun vs. a "real" gun and the intuition of the reloader? Don't know how AA decides it's max. loads but evidently they are making the call at lower pressures.

Probably in light of older and perhaps some import guns. They would rather err on the side of caution like with trapdoor loads.

Paul Matthews, in his book about the 45/70 (Forty years withe 45/70) mentions that he would often get higher velocity with a heavier bullet using the same powder charge. He speculated it had to do with the straight wall case combined with the med. burn rate powders.

I don't know much about the Pedersoli Sharps, and would also want to err on the side of caution. The loads you mentioned are probably enough.

I'll go with that...Lyman cuts it's trapdoor loads off at 18,000cup and most of them are well below that. Other manuals go to much hiher pressures even in trapdoor loads....evidently it's just a judgment call.

The higest I've seen in print for the Sharps repros. (US made) was 26-28K. Know others have taken them higher and lived to tell the tale

I thank you gentlemen for your replies. I've got a fair load worked up at 34.5 grains, VERY light crimp, seated just short of the lands. It's well short of the starting rounds listed in the Lyman, but it's darn accurate. No leading problem, very managable recoil. I appreciate the reply explaining heavier bullets creating lower pressures, not sure I understand it completely, but now at least the figures make sense. Still lots of learning to be done on this old round, and I sure appreciate the help out here.

Now for the final question...has anyone ever shot a spring gobbler with a rather large Sharps? I'm getting the bug bad to actually swat something with it!

Should be a great turkey gun. Contrary to popular belief, large caliber lead bullets tend to make large clean holes through animals, without blowing them up like high velocity rounds do. I've shot a fair number of rabbits, squirrels, and a coyote or 2,(5?) with 44's, 45 colts, 45 auto's and 45/70's using lead bullets, always resulting in very dead animals and little bloodshot meat or serious tissue destruction.

I tried to edit my earlier post, but my computer, or my service provider can't seem to let me into the edit feature. Been having other problems navigating the forum. Was going to add that Mathews figured the expansion ratio with the straight wall 45/70 case and med burn powders seemed to be more efficient with the heavier bullets and heavy crimp (IE more resistance). That combination seemed to help the powder to burn cleaner and more consistantly.

Now that does make sense. I'm getting some unburned powder with the 405's, heavier might make it burn more complete. It was just something I'd never seen loading the conventional necked cartridges. The Sharps has really opened my eyes to alot of things I took for granted with the more modern rounds. It's also improved my shooting 10 fold.

I've seen what the high velocity deer rifles can do to a turkey. Also had a hunters tom get away after hitting him with a 22-250 without hitting anything vital or taking the 'fly' out of him. The guy thought he had the perfect turkey gun. We never did find that bird...

Something that helped with reducing unburned powder when loading 45/70, and is more of an issue with your larger case, is to use a filler to keep the powder in the back of the case. I have used toilet paper, about a half sheet wadded up and seated down on the powder with a pencil or pen, (use butt end), or a bit of dacron pillow stuffing, just a small tuft placed in the same as the tp. Some people report good results using dacron batting cut to about 5/8" squares with scissors. You can experiment with holding the muzzle up after loading the cartridge, then gently lowering to fireing position, this gets the powder to the back of the case near the primer, and gives more consistant powder burn. cheap and easy, but not very handy, like having your powder held back by a filler. Some guys use a magnum primer also, though I never have, the filler works well. You might try to find a copy of Paul Mathews' book Forty Years With The 45/70. Your library may be able to get a copy to borrow, good way to see if you want to buy a copy.

Forgot to mention, you might want to increase your crimp to provide more resistance on ignition. with black powder it wasn't as much of an issue, but with smokeless it may help with the unburned powder and load consistancy

Forgot to mention, you might want to increase your crimp to provide more resistance on ignition. with black powder it wasn't as much of an issue, but with smokeless it may help with the unburned powder and load consistancy
Baggsy,
My experience is with Trapdoors,45/70 cal.
I have noticed that,on occasion,heavier bullets will chrono faster then lighter ones.
I agree that it can be caused by better combustion of the powder.To that end,I always use filler with my medium speed powders.I've tried heavy crimping and mag primers with only moderate success.You might try a larger diameter bullet.
Frank

Accurate says to not use a filler of any sort...not sure what their reasoning is but another friend said it might cause pressure spikes in their mind. I may have to try it though. The unburned doesn't seem to be affecting accuracy though. I did use a good tight crimp to start with, and the unburned was still there, but accuracy suffered with the tight crimp. I've got to where I now resize only enough to not accept the bullet. Flare just enough to where it will accept the bullet, then just a touch of a crimp. The group has leveled out to about an 1 1/2 at 100 yards. It was twice that or more with a heavy crimp. Currently the 405 is the only mold I have so that's what I'm using. I may have to step up another notch and see how it shoots with a 500+. But I'll take this load up turkey hunting and try for old longbeard and maybe a porcupine or two. I was looking forward to next fall, but it appears my wife is going to throw a monkey wrench in the works and have another baby about then...I'm afraid she'll want me around for that.

Women are funny about those things! Anyway, congrats on the baby!

Go with what works in your rifle, sounds like you're on to something though with 1 1/2" groups. There are several good bullet makers around that can sell you 500 gr bullets. Some offer SPG lube for a bit extra. Most say it's well worth the extra. Some makers also offer their bullets in a softer alloy, which many single shot and black powder shooters like. They say it improves accuracy.

Old retired frind of mine sent me a Danish rolling block he converted to 45/70 in the 1950's....he's not dead, just past the point of hunting anymore. He did a nice job, restocked well, barrel shorentend at eh breech and rechambered,...the gun SHOOTS!

IN NO WAY DO I RECOMMEND THESE LOADS!! THEY ARE WAY OVER THE TOP FOR AN 1880'S RIFLE!! Be he also sent along the old baloon head cases he was using, a supply of bullets, and his old edition of Lyman #38. The bullets are KIRKSITE (a kind of zinc alloy)...a 330gr. mold tosees 197gr. bullets in this tuff and they hard by any measure. IN the margin of the loading manual, he's penicled in (about 1955) loads going up to 40gr. of IMR 4759.

While not a recommndation, it does amaze me that this old rifle shows no ill effects from tossing 200gr. bullets out at what had to be 2400-2450fps (and pressure that must have been about twice what a rolling block should be asked to stand).

Guess the point of this is that ther aren't any real good measurements of pressure at sub-50K levels. While this action stood up to abusive loads for opver 30 years of hunting, the next one just like it could turn to fragments at the first shot. Stay within tested data...think things out before you load...and re-think them even if you believe all is well.

Now this guy is knowledgeable...and his other loading practices aren't "way out there". Judgement call...in his opinion he hadn't crossed the line. Looking at the fired cases makesa me wonder. He did a great rechambering job...so great, that I don't belive there is very much room for any type of web expansion...measuremnets here wouldn't give you a clue. Primers aren't going to start getting "funky" until after 50K is passed....smooth chambering job and a tapered case isn't going to show much in the way of extraction problems until after 45-50K....bushed firing pin hole isn't going to crater un til about the same level.

Fact is, believe this RB would "blow up" (catastrop[ich mecanical failure) before it gave a sign of over pressure. Something to keep in mind when loading that 45-90.

Baggsy, you get to Cody much? There's a bullet outfit here that does all the stuff I mentioned.

Ribbonstone, were the Danish guns later production guns? (IE Better steel?)

Baggsy, you get to Cody much? There's a bullet outfit here that does all the stuff I mentioned.

Mount Baldy Bullet Company! Yes, I know them and have bought from them in the past. I used to guide and wrangle horses for Bangart Bighorn Outfitters. Now I come up elk hunting in the fall when a permit comes my way. Got my oldest son's first elk up South Fork by the Anthill last November. My Pa was the Game Warden in Thermop for many years and Cody was my back yard. Love that country. I'm stuck down in this wind blown heckhole in the South East corner. I had talked to Mt. Baldy last January but shipping was almost as much as the bullets. But I've got a line on a fellow down here that may have some Postell (530 Grains?) I might be able to trade for.

My old friend and Compadre Bangart is going to try to join the boys and I in the Black Hill turkey hunting, and I might be able to talk him into dragging some lead along. Any recommendation on some of their better bullets?

Just call up Frank (527-6680) and ask him whats working best, might be nice to try several types and see what your gun likes. Have you slugged your bore? He'll size them whatever you need. If you know someone going your way or going to meet you, you've got the shipping beat.

Ribbonstone, were the Danish guns later production guns? (IE Better steel?)

Better steel by way of the natural deposits of the area...Swedish steel is still prefered for some uses, but in 1883, how good could it be? This old one has two firing pin holes in the breech block..was originally a rim fire and was later converted to centerfire as Denmark's issue ammo changed.

Think the point is that from what I've read and what I've experinced, believe old guns would "let go" without the warning signs normally shown by modern bolt guns. And when they let go, they do so "big time". Can't rely on sticky cases if the chambering job is first rate, can't rely on primer condition under 50K (unless still using the original large diameter pin), and can't rely on action "stickiness" if chambered and headspaced tightly.

Best guss is that there is a direct relationship between velocity and pressure...that an increase in one results in an increase in the other. Is a relationship between powder volume and velocity as well, but it doesn't deem to be direct.

Closest guesstimate of powder volume to velocity seems to be the following: (and it's useable volume after the bullet is seated...not case volume owithout a seated bullet):

Using the same powder and running at the same pressure, 1/4 the PERCENTAGE in volume increas should show up as velocity. So if you increased volume 16%, the velocity (using the same powder and at the same pressure) whould work out to about 4%.

Anymore velocity increase, without waitching powders, is proably the result of increaded pressure. IF the new larger volume case allows the use of a slower powder (one too slow for the original case to reach amx. pressure), then the velocity increase can be as much as 1/2 the percentage of volume difference.

But it's just the way things worked out over the years...it's now a law, just a long term observation.

Mt baldy also has the 140 gr "collar button' bullets, they make good grouse and small game loads with light charges of pistol powder, and don't make much noise.

Slugged the barrel right at .458 but it seems to like .459's in the 405 grain, 1:20 alloy. If I recall (my memory's real good, it just doesn't last long), Frank had a 495 grain spitzer that sounded interesting when I called last. Sounded like it wasn't much for a hunting bullet but the long range guys were touting it heavy back then. I'll give him a try! Kinda ironic, I just talked to my friend this morning to firm up the hunt plans and didn't even think about it then. Shows you about how good my memory is...

OK, Ribbonstone, I was thinking the Danish guns were turn of the century. I don't use the 4759(?) powder much, but with the med burn rate powders, it seems hard to get enough powder in the case with a light bullet to get the pressure REAL high. 4759 may be a different story though.

I've used your formula before, trying to figure what a MAX 400 gr load in 45/90 would do velocity wise in the new browning 86, running about 40-42K psi. By 'seat of the pants" reckoning, it should do about 150-200fps better than the 45/70 for the same pressure, but your formula said only a small increase. Any ideas? I never have found pressure tested and chronographed data for the MAX 45/90 loads I'm seeking.

A bit over size bullet won't hurt. It might be a bit of a challenge if you bore was big though. Sounds like you have a good, tight(proper) size bore.

tried to edit that last post, computer got stuck and had to restart.

Actually, a thou over groove dia is about right.

OK, Ribbonstone, I was thinking the Danish guns were turn of the century. I don't use the 4759(?) powder much, but with the med burn rate powders, it seems hard to get enough powder in the case with a light bullet to get the pressure REAL high. 4759 may be a different story though.

I've used your formula before, trying to figure what a MAX 400 gr load in 45/90 would do velocity wise in the new browning 86, running about 40-42K psi. By 'seat of the pants" reckoning, it should do about 150-200fps better than the 45/70 for the same pressure, but your formula said only a small increase. Any ideas? I never have found pressure tested and chronographed data for the MAX 45/90 loads I'm seeking.

The 150-200fps sounds reasonable for the same pressure...it's all I'd look for as an increase without increasing pressure.

PArt of the problem with old 45-90 data is that the large volume "baloon" head cases stayed in use into the 1950's (and stayed easy to find into the 1960's). That's a good bit more volume than today's solid (stronger) cases.


Without knowing the vintage of the data and the cases used in working up that data, the loading data is suspect.

Agree, old data isn't the answer. Was hoping to find some new data, especially since the new starline cases are availabe now. I'm considering the rechamber option on my 86 when I move to Alaska. I like the 50/100/450, but it's a very expensive proposition by the time you do the work on the gun, buy dies and brass, and work up a load. And you can't buy ammo anywhere. with the 45/90, at least I could use 45/70 loads if neccesary. For the amount of increase though, I don't know if it's worth the trouble. Still thinking it over.

I know! You could always call up your old friends Ribbonstone and Baggsy for the combo wolf, wolverine, caribou, dall sheep, moose, griz bear hunt and we could drag along some extra ammo for you! We'd be more than glad to oblige!

Quite generous of you! So, I take it you don't like mt goat hunting? Or salmon fishing?

Quite generous of you! So, I take it you don't like mt goat hunting? Or salmon fishing?

Gee, I didn't want to appear greedy in that first post...but since you offered!

Actually, the fly-fishing would probably be tops on my list. I love my hunting and all, but I bet hooking into one of them big kings would be like trying to reel in a mule deer! That and maybe a moose that wouldn't fit in my pickup bed would be nice.

Gee, I didn't want to appear greedy in that first post...but since you offered!

Actually, the fly-fishing would probably be tops on my list. I love my hunting and all, but I bet hooking into one of them big kings would be like trying to reel in a mule deer! That and maybe a moose that wouldn't fit in my pickup bed would be nice.

None of the critters listed are natual to this area...would be hunting "blind" as to their habits. Be embarrasing to drag some farmer's prized bull into the taxidermist's office.