I've read in several different threads, some on this fourm, where complaints have been voiced about the Nosler BT's blowing up / elploding on impact when shooting deer. Most of these blow-ups seem to be happening under 100-200 yds and many occured where magnum calibers and/or high velocities were involved and where 165 Grn or smaller BT's were used. I might also point out that in all cases that I read about...the deer was killed and most traveled 50 Yds or less.

With that said, wouldn't a heaver 180 Grn Ballistic Tip loaded to moderate velocities (2,600-2,800) be a good load for whitetails under 200 yds? The logic being that you would still get the quick expansion the BT's were designed for and the heaver weight should give you better penetration.

I know that anything over 165 Grn is generally considered too heavy for whitetail, but in this specific case (200 Yds & Under) it seems to me it would be an ideal load.

(By the way, I'm primarilly talkin 30.06)

What do you think?

firstshot
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Make your first shot count

Honestly think Nosler toughened up the BT's from the first runs...at least the one's I first had prooved a bit fragile, but the later ones have prooved less so.

Don't think 180's are too much fro whitetails...are more than the minimum, but certaily not going to be the casue of you losing one that's struck in the kill zone.

You're probably on the right track, firstshot -

Understand the 6mm's (.243) and below calibers are primarily considered varmit bullets and therefore sorta thin on the jackets. Those in the .25 and above have thicker jackets as they are more or less considered to be used on game animals from antelope on up.

Have recently been working with the Hornady SST bullets, which are designed for big game. They are pretty accurate (as with the Nosler BT's), but I haven't plunked one into an animal yet, so don't have personal knowledge of their performance.

Two pigs, one deer, at around the 100 yard mark, all went in and none came out... 180gr. BT / .30-06 / 2750fps at the muzzle. The green plastic tip seems to penetrate about the farthese of any of the pieces....

OK on deer I guess, pretty marginal on pigs in my opinion.

Hope you have good luck with them.

I've got a few years of experience and at least a couple dozen whitetails and mulies under my belt that all fell to a Nosler Ballistic Tip. I shoot either a .308 or a .30-06, it's been the .30-06 the last few years because I've loaned my .308 out to my brother-in-law, a new recruit to the hunting heritage. I load 150 gr. BT's in the .308, 165 gr. in the
.30-06, only because my finicky M70 FWT doesn't like any other bullet, believe I tried them all. The 150's do a great job, and the 165's do even better in my opinion. We butcher and process all of our own deer, so you know that if the load we are using creates massive meat damage, we wouldn't use it. Those who say the ballistic tips destroy lots of meat have most likely had a bad experience with a magnum that they should have had a partition bullet in to begin with. I have a couple friends I introduced to reloading when they decided that had to have the baddest and best, a .338/.378 and a .30/.378 Wby., then they looked at the cost of ammo and asked me to load for them. They wondered what I used for bullets and what would burn all of its energy in the deer and put it down on the spot. I told them the BT would, but I recommended against it vehemently, but they insisted I use it. We put a 180 gr. in the .338/.378 and a 180 gr. in the .30/.378. Both of the guys are horn hunters only, they might make a little jerky, but that's it. Shooting a deer with these rounds and the BT is like launching a grenade at 3500 fps, I couldn't believe what it did to the deer, and they were ecstatic with the instantaneous kills. I was not there to witness any of them because we do not hunt together, we have a couple different ideas on purely ethical deer hunting, but from the sound of it it's alot like hitting a prairie dog with a .220 Swift. I highly recommend the ballistic tips in standard velocity cartridges, but don't use them in something they are not appropriate for and then expect them to not explode!!!! Just my .02.
Selmer

I have used both Nosler BT's and Barnes X for a lot of years and neither has failed me yet. I used some hornady SST's this year and they performed superbly.

I tend to favor 180 gr bullets for deer in the 30-06. I will admit to loading up some 165's to try out at the range though. Problem is that this when this cranky old reloader finds a rifle that shoots well with a particular load...I tend to stick with it.

Gotta agree with the super high velocity argument...each to his own but a 338-378 is a little much for deer unless you have a liking for recoil. Course maybe they like to reach out and touch somebody at long range...nothing wrong with that.

In regard to the original question: I would experiment a little and use what shoots best in your rifle...

swede

The 180 gr. ballistic tip should work just fine at the velocities listed above. Since you like the Noslers products such as I do, don't forget about the 180 gr. AccuBonds in 30 cal. I have used them on pigs and love them. Just be prepared to seat them deep in your case, if your magazine won't allow you to seat them closer to the lands. These new bullets are very aerodynamic, thus taking up more powder space if you can't seat the bullet out further. I modified my gun with an aftermarket magazine that allows longer bullets to get excellent accuracy. (.030 off the lands). You can find these 180 gr. Nosler AccuBonds for $17.99 for a box of 50 if you shop around. I used to shoot the 180 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips, switched over to the Nosler Partitions then recently started using the AccuBonds. The range results is amazing and these bullets have no problem with deep penetration and complete pass throughs. When it leaves the muzzle at 2965 fps I think just the shock alone on impact takes them down. Both the Ballistic Tips and the Accubonds are very much the same in shape; however, the Accubonds are bonded.

Take advantage and enjoy the results.

Thanks everyone for all the comments / advise.

For starters I bought enough 180 grn BT to load 100 rounds. Will start at 52 grns of H4350 and work up .2 grns at a time until I hopefully find the load my BAR likes.

I don't have an opinion yet on the BT's vs SST vs scirocco vs AccuBond or any particular manufacturer at this point. Just getting started and will probably try them all over the summer, then pick the most accurate in my gun to try on actual game this fall. The BT's were all my local shop had in stock in 180 grn so that's where I started.

Are the AccuBonds a "fast expanding" bullet like the BT's, SST's, etc?

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

Yeah, I told them that the .338/.378 was a lot much for deer, but they wanted something that would have the most "knockdown power" available, and they convinced themselve that round would do it, whether it does it any better than my .30-06 is a matter of debate! As for recoil, it's a heavy rifle and has the factory brake on it, and the resultant recoil was far less than my .30-06 M70 FWT! The downside being that you didn't want to park a vehicle anywhere near for fear of the windows shattering from the muzzle blast, you just felt a huge concussion wave of hot air everytime you pulled the trigger, but it would shoot under an inch at 100 yds. with several loads.
Selmer

I have used both Nosler BT's and Barnes X for a lot of years and neither has failed me yet. I used some hornady SST's this year and they performed superbly.

I tend to favor 180 gr bullets for deer in the 30-06. I will admit to loading up some 165's to try out at the range though. Problem is that this when this cranky old reloader finds a rifle that shoots well with a particular load...I tend to stick with it.

Gotta agree with the super high velocity argument...each to his own but a 338-378 is a little much for deer unless you have a liking for recoil. Course maybe they like to reach out and touch somebody at long range...nothing wrong with that.

In regard to the original question: I would experiment a little and use what shoots best in your rifle...

swede

Firstshot,

I have a great article at the house that describes in detail the difference between all the bonded bullets. It describes jacketed material, material thickness at tips and bases, and core material all of which contribute to bullet performance and penetration. I will post it here on this link as soon as I can.

Standby

Aaron

Thanks .454er

Would certianly like to see that article.
---------------

You said in your previous post that I should "be prepared to seat them deep" (in a BAR), if your magazine won't allow you to seat them closer to the lands"

I did load one 180Grn BT on top of 55 Grns of H4350 which was getting close to filling up the case. There was enough room to seat the bullet, but not enough room to "set it deep". It did fit in the BAR magazine and did cycle through the action OK.

The question is, what happens when I get to 56, 57 Grns in which case the bullet probably would be compressing the charge a bit?

Is this a No No? What is rule about compressing charges? Should I switch to a different powder at this point or what?
-----------------------

You also said that you "modified my gun with an aftermarket magazine that allows longer bullets to get excellent accuracy". What gun are you shooting? Obviously its got a magazine...LOL. You shooting a BAR as well? If so, what kind of magazine did you get and where did you get it?

Thanks

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

Thanks .454er

Would certianly like to see that article.
---------------

You said in your previous post that I should "be prepared to seat them deep" (in a BAR), if your magazine won't allow you to seat them closer to the lands"

I did load one 180Grn BT on top of 55 Grns of H4350 which was getting close to filling up the case. There was enough room to seat the bullet, but not enough room to "set it deep". It did fit in the BAR magazine and did cycle through the action OK.

The question is, what happens when I get to 56, 57 Grns in which case the bullet probably would be compressing the charge a bit?

Is this a No No? What is rule about compressing charges? Should I switch to a different powder at this point or what?
-----------------------

You also said that you "modified my gun with an aftermarket magazine that allows longer bullets to get excellent accuracy". What gun are you shooting? Obviously its got a magazine...LOL. You shooting a BAR as well? If so, what kind of magazine did you get and where did you get it?

Thanks

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

I found the article last night...was going to post the info here, but there is way to much to list. This is one article you have got to read. The article is listed within the February 2004 of American Rifleman. It starts on page 64 and the title of the article is "Bonding With Your Bullet".

"Are the AccuBonds a "fast expanding" bullet like the BT's, SST's, etc?" In short the AccuBond was designed to expand quickly, but only a small portion of the front of the bullet so it can still penetrate deeply like the partition. Other bullets of this type expand quickly, but the pedals mushroom and fold back further down the bullet than the AccuBond does. Due to other bullets much like the AccuBond having a larger frontal area, it limits penetration. The AccuBond pedals fold back but are controlled by how far back they fold back. This way the AccuBond has a smaller frontal area mushroom and deeper penetration. Everything is a trade off...each person has to decide what is best for is hunting circumstances. The article goes into greater detail and compares all other bullets. The four bullets I would keep my eye on are the Nosler AccuBond, Swift Scirocco, Speer Trophy Bonded Beer Claw and the Hornady new Interbond (not the SST).

As far as your BAR is concerned I don't shoot one so I don't have any measurements on the magazine length. My magazine on my Remington model 700 RMEF in .300 SAUM was forcing me to seat the bullet over .160 off the lands and with the AccuBond being a longer bullet it was also causing me to have heavily compressed loads with the H4350. Slightly compressed loads are fine, but not to the point that it compresses the powder.
When I stated great accuracy I was describing the change I had from moving the bullet .160 off the lands to .030 off the lands by installing a longer magazine made by Wyatt Outdoors out of Oregon. It was also necessary to seat the bullet out further so I didn't have compressed loads with that powder and bullet combination. I was set on using that powder only, so I made it work and the velocities are still within published amounts.
In answer to your other question, slightly compressed loads are ok, I prefer about 90-99% case capacity. Anything more than 99-100% I would move to a faster burning powder if you are still within velocity and pressure limits. If you have load densities below 90%, change to a slower burning powder. With your gun I would say you have picked the right powder, the extreme powders are great. If you don't have any pressure signs and you really need the 56 or 57 grians of H4350 with a longer bullet, just seat the bullet closer to the lands if the magazine will allow it and if it can safely be done. I would reccomend getting a Stoney Point OAL Gauge if you don't have one. This gauge will tell you exactly how far you can seat any bullet without touching the lands, thus giving you more room for powder. Another great powder for the 30.06 is the VV N-550, but work with what you have right now.

So with factory ammo how much space do you have remaining in magazine....020, .040, .060, .080?

Hope this helps, If I missed anything feel free to ask again.

I found the article last night...was going to post the info here, but there is way to much to list. This is one article you have got to read. The article is listed within the February 2004 of American Rifleman. It starts on page 64 and the title of the article is "Bonding With Your Bullet".

So with factory ammo how much space do you have remaining in magazine....020, .040, .060, .080?



.454er

I found and read the "Bonding With Your Bullet" article. Excellent article. Based on what I read, I think I'm on the right track for my type of hunting(<200 Yds) with the heavier 180 grn "Faster" expanding bullets (BT, SST) at moderate velocities(<= 2800 fps).

The Sierra load manual shows a maximum loaded cartridge length of 3.340. I loaded one round just to see if the full length resize die was OK for my gun or if I needed to switch to a "small base" die. I also wanted to see if an "almost" max length cartridge would fit in the magazine.

The total length of round I loaded was a total of 3.295. That's just 0.045 short of max. This round fit in my magazine with just a little room left over, and cycled through the chamber and ejected just fine. In fact, using a caliper to measure, it appears my magazine would accomadate a max length 3.340 cartridge.

I don't know how far off the lands I am with this 3.295 round. Will have to get one of those Stoney Point OAL Gauges so that I will know. By the way, what does "OAL" stand for? I assume it meand total cartridge length.

Thanks

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

Here is a link to the Stoney Point Overall Length (OAL) Gauge.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/standard-pod-wrapped.jhtml?id=0003125&navAction=push&navCount=3&indexId=cat20849&parentId=cat20849&parentType=index&rid=&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fcatalog%2Fpod-link.jhtml_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712

http://www.grafs.com/shopRegularproducts.cfm/startItem/1


May have to copy and paste this link to get it to work. Looks like you can have this OAL tool ready to use for about $35-$40. Keep in mind that while reloading plastic tip bullets you are less likly to have contact with lands when compared to using a more rounded nose bullet like the partition. The partitions contacted the lands way before my ballistic tips did. Just something to be cautious of.

Sounds like you have some room in your magazine to play with for accuracy. Hopefully you will find your guns "sweet spot" within the length that the magazine will hold and cycle. Unfortunantly for me, my rifles sweet spot for accuracy required my bullet to be longer than the stock magazine. The max OAL listed was 2.825 and my rounds are currently at 2.950 and I still have .030 to work with on the AccuBonds.

Good luck with the fine tunning and the green tips.

I have used both Nosler BT's and Barnes X for a lot of years and neither has failed me yet. I used some hornady SST's this year and they performed superbly.

swede

Sweed

I assume by your comments that you were shooting 180grn in each of the three. All things being equil, I'm trying to develop what I heard someone else describe as that "bang/flop" load. If I can, I want to drop them in their tracks or as close to it as possible. Between those three bullets (BT's, Barns X, & SST), which performed best for you on whitetail.

firstshot
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Make your first shot count

Have recently been working with the Hornady SST bullets, which are designed for big game. They are pretty accurate (as with the Nosler BT's), but I haven't plunked one into an animal yet, so don't have personal knowledge of their performance.


kdub

I know it's a long way till deer season, but keep us posted on how those SST's perform on game. I don't as yet know which bullet I'll be using. (BT's or SST's), Depends which one my gun likes the best. I'm starting with the 180 grn BT's with 52 grn H4350 and working up .2 grns at a time. Will post accuracy results, but like you, will have to wait till hunting seaseon to see how they perform.


firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

I'll make only one comment here...

If you think that the 180grain Ballistic Tip is the answer to your needs buy them up now.

I believe Nosler is going to discontinue them because of slow sales...

Midway has them on closeout.

AllanD

I had the same question on the 180 bt. I use a short barreled 308 (18in) and can get about 2500 to 2600 fps. Called Nosler and was told by the tech that the 180 has a tougher jacket and was designed for the mag cartridges. This bullet will expand nicely down to 2000 fps impact velocity. This gives me about 250 yds range which is about my max on deer.

They must have done a serious redesign of the 180gr. BT - the ones I've shot pretty much exploded on impact, or shortly thereafter!

Hope you get it all sorted out.

I have used the 180gr bt in a 300win on large pigs 100kg+, sure they killed them, but not once did i get bullet pass through. Internal damage was massive, recovered a few projectiles, absolutely no core left. Now use rem corelok's 180gr, expand well and punch through with a decent exit hole. As for deer, maybe in a 308win the 180bt would work, do yourself a favour use something else.


cheers cc

I've used Noslers BTs for years for all sizes of big game - they work very well, dropping the critters including elk in their tracks - that is, if they are hit in a vital area. I hit the chest and shoulder region. They work even with high velocity loads. They are very accurate - the most accurate I've encountered - and they have high BCs for down range energy retention. Remember - speed kills.