Today I purchased a model 1873 and would like to find some lead bullet ammo that is safe to shoot in the rifle. Any suggestions on low pressure cartridge suppliers.

Bill

Today I purchased a model 1873 and would like to find some lead bullet ammo that is safe to shoot in the rifle. Any suggestions on low pressure cartridge suppliers.

Bill

IF it's a "real" 1873, then have some one who really knows old guns give it a going over...and consider the value before subjecting it to lots of use. The standard WW factroy load is supose to be safe in BP guns. The jacketed bullets may not be nee3ded at that bel., but will usually allow a barrel with any kind of rifling left to at least group marginally well. ill have to write/email directly to BlackHills to see if their cowboy loads (using lead bullets) are pressure tested to be safe in BP rifles. I believe they are, but better to get the answer straight from the maker than trust anyone's memory.

The repro. 1873's are nice guns, and if not a stronger design, at least have modern, unstressed by years of use steel working in their favor. Wouldn't hesitate to fire factroy producedd 44/40's, with the exception of those old collector's Hi-Vel. rifle loads (lots of warnings about those, but they haven't been made for a long-long time).

It is a real one made in 1888. I would rate the rifling at 70%, has some minor pitting. But, expected for a gun of this vintage. I don't plan to shoot it all the time, but would like to be able to shoot it on occasion, mainly just to punch paper.

Bill

I am thinking Ultramax or Black Hills ammo.

It is a real one made in 1888. I would rate the rifling at 70%, has some minor pitting. But, expected for a gun of this vintage. I don't plan to shoot it all the time, but would like to be able to shoot it on occasion, mainly just to punch paper.

Bill

Kind of like the "old time" packaging of the Black Hills ammo...didn't find a specific mention of pressure, but they've been responsive to questions.

That is an old one...and worth a good bit of $, so not stressing your investment is probably for the best. Can get pretty good accuacy from some pitted barrels...can't seem to get non-leading loads, but the accuracy with lead bullets can be good for a reasonable number of shots.

Cleaning the barrel, and using some of the modern solvents to help get any existing leading out wouldn't hurt.

May have to give some thought to reloading. Lyman divides their 44/40 data into two parts, groupe 1 and group 2, accorading to their estimation of action strength. The '73 is definately a "group 1" action reguardless of when it was made (modern Repro or original Winchester). Lyman limits pressure to below 13,700CUP for group 1...if that seems too tame, have to consider all the game (and men) done in by the 44/40 over the years...may be low pressure, but those critters and men don't show any sign of coming back just now.

Bill, I have a little '73 carbine of similar vintage that has been fired countless times, with both factory ammo and reloads. My favorite load is the the old 8.5 grs. of Unique and a 200 gr.LFN. I use these in both my Frontier Six-Shooters and the 1873. Never a problem with these low pressure loads. All off the shelf ammo is safe to fire in the old guns, assuming that they are in good mechanical condition.

Thanks Mike, What brand of 200gr slugs are you using? I was looking at Meister, not sure if Beartooth offers them. What brand of cases and primers?

Bill C.

I have many cases of WW, R-P, and Starline manufacture. Unless they crumple, which .44 WCF cases sometimes do, they last a very long time. Proper case mouth expansion and careful bullet seating is critical. I usually use CCI #300 large pistol primers, and Laser-Cast bullets. I still have a several dozen 215 Gr semi wad cutters from Western Nevada Bullet Co, and intend to buy some more of those at the next Reno show. I would also like to find powder in larger volume cans, but, they are not available here in Ca. I'll look for that at the show, too.

broncobill86,

Sounds like you have a neat old Winchester there!

I purchased an original '73 Winchester in .44 W.C.F. (mfg'd in 1882) about 4 years ago. This gun is in fair condition and it has a barrel that is somewhat pitted. Since purchasing it about 3,500 rounds have gone through the barrel, some jacketed but the majority have been cast bullets.

Based on my experience with my '73, if I had your rifle, and it was determined to be in reasonable working order, the first thing I would do is slug the barrel to determine the groove diameter. The '73 bore / groove diameters had more variation in size prior to 1895 because soft lead bullets propelled by black powder would adapt to that variance.
That all changed in the mid 1890's with the introduction of smokeless powder and jacketed bullets.

Speaking of jacketed bullets, some folks think that they should not be used in these old rifles. But consider this. When the first smokeless powder .38 W.C.F. / .38-40 ammunition was first introduced in the mid 1890's, they were loaded with jacketed bullets and the cartridge boxes indicated that they were for use in the '73 and '92 Winchester rifle.
The barrel is much harder than the jacket on a bullet.

The normal groove diameter for the .38 W.C.F. is about .401". All current .38-40 factory ammunition, both lead and jacketed should work ok if your rifle's groove diameter is no larger than .402". If it is .403", jacketed should still work ok, but accuracy with current lead bulleted ammunition may start to deteriorate.

If it is larger than .403", it would probably become a handloading only proposition to make accurate ammunition. A bullet mold could be purchased to make bullets .001 to .002" over groove diameter and used with good results.

Regarding the condition of the barrel, my '73 which also has an oversized pitted barrel gives wonderful accuracy with cast bullets made from wheelweights + 2% tin that are .001-.002" larger than the groove diameter. And......they do not lead the barrel.

Good luck,
John

John,
Do you handload? If so what load do you use and with what lead bullet?

Bill C.

brocobill86,

I reload for the .44 W.C.F. / .44-40. My favorite bullet is Lyman's 427098 made from wheel weights + 2% tin alloy over 16 grs. of H4227E sparked by a 155 Federal Primer.
It weighs 215 grs. and goes 1,220 f.p.s. giving good accuracy in my 1873's 21" barrel which is slightly pitted.

Depending on how badly your barrel is pitted you may be able to obtain decent accuracy with lead bullets that are .001-.002 over groove diameter.

Good luck.
John

I've decided to go with a different method. Blackpowder, going with Triple 7. The Hogdon book says 30gr for ~880fps at 7000cup. Now I've never reloaded with blackpower, any suggestions, I hear its more dangerous!


Bill C.

I've decided to go with a different method. Blackpowder, going with Triple 7. The Hogdon book says 30gr for ~880fps at 7000cup. Now I've never reloaded with blackpower, any suggestions, I hear its more dangerous!


Bill C.

In at least one way, it is less dangerous than smokeless. Nearly impossible to load too much powder in a case and still have room to seat the bullet....no real chance of an accidental double charge.

Triple 7 is a combustable solid...it's shipping rules are teh same as for smokeless becasue it is no harder to accidently set off than smokeless.

Does foul the barrel...it's less than black powder, but not all that much less. Expect to swab the barrel now and again at the range...less often than with blackpowder, but it's still going to build up a bit.

Triple 7 has responded better to the specail black powder bullet lubricants than with the smokeless powder bullet lubricants. Besides, the whole idea of triple seven is that it cleans up easily with water...if you don't use a water soluable lube, you kind of lose that advantage.

If it is no more cumbustable, can I use it in my RCBS Uniflow powder dispenser? Or should I dispense it another way. Not worried too much about fouling, this rifle probably wont be shot too much.

Bill

If it is no more cumbustable, can I use it in my RCBS Uniflow powder dispenser? Or should I dispense it another way. Not worried too much about fouling, this rifle probably wont be shot too much.

Bill

I've never tried it in a measure (alos have an RCBS Uniflow) as the right load is usually all that the case will hold and still leave room for a seated bullet.

Do notice on the Triple Seven container the fowllowing:

"Not smokeless powder, but approved to ship (DOT) and store (NFPA) as such."

Goes on to repeat the warnings about impact sensitivity and friction...so I'd proably not use it in a powder measure (not the rotary durm type in any event).

So i normally will load it by the old type dipper method. Find the right charge, put it a junk case (one with a split or other defect that renders it useless for reloading). Cut/trim/file teh case so that it holds only the selcted amount when filled flush. Attach a handle (can solder one one, or just crazy glue one on).

With a bit of practice at dipping the same way each time. "Dipping" isn't quite right...lower the dipper into the powder, let if fill, pull it straight up, stike it level; this way the only compression is gravity which is constant.

BTW: they make various grades...be sure you buy the FFg granulation.

broncobill86,

I have used 777 with good results, but when it comes to black powder substitutes, I prefer PyrodexRS mostly because it smells like black powder. In either case, in addition to cleaning the barrel well, you will also need to soak the brass in hot water to remove the fouling. I prefer 50/50 hot water / distilled white vinegar, but hot water and dishwashing liquid will do the job.

NOTE: Hodgdon does indicate the 30 gr. of 777 BUT THAT IS IS A B.P. VOLUME MEASUREMENT. The actual measurement in a weighed charge with my lot of 777 is 22 grs.

777 did give good accuracy in my pitted bore. Best accuracy came with the 2 groove 427098 bullet which also gave the best accuracy with Pyrodex.

Pyrodex gave equally as good results and in one test I fired close to 50 rounds without cleaning and the accuracy was still hanging in there. (I used smokeless lube on these bullets.) Quite a difference from Goex black powder which only went 8 rounds before accuracy really deteriorated.

The most rounds I fired in a row with 777 was about 20 and it was still giving good accuracy so I don't know how much further it would have gone. Ribbonstone has more experience than I with it.

Good luck,
John

Ok this BP thing is getting more complicated. You say 22gr of 777, but the reloading data says 30r of 777FFG. I've also heard that charge is based on the available volume under the bullet. Use slight compression, not air void. Ok what am I to do? I need an idiot's guide to loading BP. :)

Bill

Bill, the replica black powders aren't as dense as the real thing, so 'weight' of charges may not make sense.

What reloading data really should read is, the amount of 777 that would equal the same volume of real black powder..... hence the discrepancy between what the data says, and what John reported. Ideally, people would forget about 'grains' when loading black powder, and get the data reported in cubic inches, cubic centimeters, bushels, gallons, or some other unit that measures volume, not weight..... probably not going to happen anytime soon, though.

I don't think you'll get 30 grains of 777 in that case, anyway.....

Last but not least, case volume differs between manufacturers, and sometimes between lots.... and powder lots have slight density changes.... so in any case, it's necessary to establish the amount of your powder that will fill up your cases with your bullets..... you get the idea.

Once you find that information out, slight variations in the amount of compression may make differences in accuracy, fouling, etc. - so there's still some experimenting to be done, not to mention primers, bullet alloys, and lube.

Hodgdon didn't make it easy...looked over there data, and it clearly indicates 30gr....not 30gr. by volume. Considering that "real" BP would take about 36 to 37gr. (in modern cases) to fill the volume with a bit of compression, may just be that they used weigh and not volume. Is more than 30gr. volume of black in that case, so the 30gr. of 777 may be a weight rahter than a volume.

Only case I have at hand that is near yours is a 38/40...and it takes about 30gr. of Tripple Seven to come up toi the level that 38gr. of FFG occupies. BUT, the only Triple seven I have is fffg grade, and that may make a difference.

It's not my rifle, or my face, that is at risk...so email them and find out.

broncobill86,

Good advice from everyone. I know this b.p and b.p. substitute loading can get a little confusing. To simplify things, with 777, Hodgdon recommends no airspace and little to no compression.

So..... take a fired case and iron out the crimp with your neck expanding die. Experiment putting 777 FFG into the case so that the bullet that you are using can be placed on top of the powder charge and it comes to rest at the seating depth of the bullet. The reason for the fired case is that the bullet would be a slip fit inside the case neck.

If accuracy is not acceptable, have someone make a punch to make .403"-.405" dia. x .06" thick polyethylene wads to be placed under the bullet. That will act as a gas check and will keep the powder gases sealed behind the bullet allowing more accurate shooting in your pitted barrel.

good luck,
John