Hello folks,

I'm considering picking up the .45lc to reload to hunt elk with and the same bullet in a 45 handgun to protect myself from large bears- I'd need a Puma 92, brass, bullets, dies. I currently reload .44 mag. Are there any considerations that make the .45lc different than the .44mag besides bullet and case dia. and less pressure than the .44mag?

If I were to buy a Puma 92 in 45lc, what would the barrel diameter be? I ask this as I see cast bullets ranging from .452" to .454".

Please tell me anything else I don't know, except that double action .45LC handguns are scarce in this caliber- though you could enlighten me as to why .

Thank you,

1x2

1X2
My most favorite pistol caliber.
First thing with the Rossi is to fire lap the barrel. Real easy to do and makes load developement real easy.
I size all of my bullets .454. This is for a Rossi lever action, 3 S&W mod. 25s, one S&W 625, one Ruger BH and one Colt Anaconda.
In the S&Ws I use a 8.5 to 9.5 grains of Unique, 255 grain plain base cast bullet sized .454, the same goes for the Ruger, but could go heavier. For the Anaconda and the Rossi I use 20 grains of H110 and 300 gas checked SWC, this load would do nicely in the Ruger.
I've used all the various makes of brass and settled on Starline, only because it's cheaper and easier to find. All of the brass works well. Winchester large pistol primers are used for everything.
45 Colt is easy to work with and very accurate.
Jim

You're going elk hunting with a .45LC lever gun? :confused:

There are tons of "hot" loads published for the .45 Colt, many just for the Ruger BH or a TC. I have experimented with many and have loaded the 45 to better than 44 Mag power levels. I have one that drives a 250 gr at over 1300 fps. These are really a handfull of power.
I, personally, would not consider a 45Colt, no matter what load, as my primary gun for Elk. It can probably (possibly) do the job under all the right circumstances. I had a Winchester 94 in 45 Colt that was ok for deer.. no way ok for Elk. The 45 would make a great backup gun or possibly used for a "finisher" shot, but from my experience I think the 45 is inappropriate as an Elk rifle.

Please tell me anything else I don't know, except that double action .45LC handguns are scarce in this caliber- though you could enlighten me as to why .As I see it, following the cowboy days, interest in the .45 Colt declined as other handgun cartridges caught the public's eye. Firearms companys dropped most of their .45 Colt offerings. For years the cartridge continued to be loaded because of the demands of a small dedicated group of shooters. With the introduction of cowboy action shooting (CAS), there was a renewed demand for the cartridge which exceeded all expectations. Firearms companys found a ready market for this chambering but most of the demand was for western era single action revolvers and less on more modern designs. That's why modern double action .45 Colt revolvers are relatively scarce today.

First, thanks for weighing in with the loads that are working for you and the comments on the .45s popularity, or lack thereof. Seems if interest in CAS wanes, the .45 could be history.

You're going elk hunting with a .45LC lever gun?

Thank you (truly) for your reply, kdub.

Objectives: Open sights, elk out to 125 yds (and deer, of course). Use a bullet with the same weight and shooting characteristics for practice as the bullet I hunt with (otherwise, how do I KNOW the trajectory and recoil), and same caliber for backup/SD (simplicity).

Hunting requirements (which some states don't have) include:

1] (shouldered/belted) cartridges > 2.0" in length,

2] muzzle loader requirements (I don't shoot these), and

(here's me)

3] .35 caliber or better, normally capable of delivering 500 ft/lbs @ 100yds and use of a SP or expanding bullet.

So, shoot the .357 magnum? Can't use any of Marshall's bullets to hunt with, and unwilling to pay to shoot gas check bullets. That's where my earlier post on max velocity without leading came from. ~1500fps is max for lead with no gas check, but only provides 650 ft/lbs at 100 yds. with 180gr bullet. It takes 1800 fps to make me comfortable; yields ~925 ft/lbs @ 100 yds. But as I mentioned, I can't afford to reload and shoot 100 rounds of these per week.

So, shoot the .44magnum? I'll be buying a new rifle, with Lord knows how large a sewer pipe bore; probably .4305-.431", and that's if I'm lucky. Marshall's .432" bullets would be perfect, but I can't pay to shoot them on a daily basis. Not only that, but he's the only outfit making lead bullets that size. What do I do with my outfit when he retires? In any event, when I hunt, I'd be using an undersized bullet. At least with the .357 bore, .358" bullets are quite common.

I'd love to stick with the .44mag, since I already have a handgun in .44mag, but there's no way I'm going through what Chief RID is mired in with his .44, though IMO he should be encouraged to finish lapping his bore. I read some people have good luck shooting undersized jacketed bullets, but I can't afford them, as I mentioned above. I hate having to be such a budgetbutt, but(t) that's how it is.


So, what about the .45LC? Does it have the bore issue like the .44mag, or are the bullets and bores more like the .357/358 setup? The 45 yields the same energy downrange as the 44mag (ok, all of 125yds, but that's enough).

And what about handgun hunting? No place for it? The .45LC is no good? Another post led me to Linebaugh's article on shooting the S&W M25; that's a handgun (for backup and SD for me) but I'd use a lever gun to hunt. Randy Garrett's website says his hammerhead bullets will break both shoulders in an elk and still exit. I think he has handgun hunting in mind, but maybe not. Bravado? Point blank range only?

Thanks for your discussion,

1x2

You're going elk hunting with a .45LC lever gun? :confused:

Why not?? :confused: At short ranges(under 100 yards) it delivers plenty of performance with proper bullet selection.

OK, I'm throwin' down...
I use a .45 Win Mag in a Grizzly and consider that it will do fine on a deer at 50-75 yards max. That's using Hornady XTP's, which I believe are the best pistol bullets around. The .45 Win Mag is 10% more powerful than a .44 (.429!), and I bet a tad more than the .45 LC unless it's loaded heavy. When most folks consider 1000 ft lbs of energy minimum requirement at the animal...no pistol qualifies except at point blank range!

I'm running Marshall's 300gr. WFNGC bullets at about 1700fps from my Marlin 1894 "Cowboy" (long barreled model).

At short range..... dang, I hate to think how much critter you'd have to stack up in front of that bullet to stop it!

JR1,

Thanks for posting the 1,000 ft/lbs minimum AT POI.

Where does that figure come from? (I know, from most folks- but not fair- have you seen it printed somewhere? :) )

How do handgun hunters like Linebaugh get by with so much less?

This "safety margin" of acceptable energy is one of the main points I've been trying to "get cleared up" before I commit to buy a rifle in 357, 44, or 45.

A few weeks ago I picked a 4-state region for minimum big game hunting requirements: Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho. Wyoming is the only one that specifies cartridges, which is where the 500 fl/lbs @ 100 yds comes from. I thought this would help me decide, but....

MikeG,

You reload to knock down trees, yes?

Thank you,

1x2

I would not be afraid to take any elk with my 45 colt Ruger out to 50 yards with my loads with 300 grain lbt's in it. They are pushing 1246 fps average and I cant imagine a elk living through that. In a rifle it would be even better, And range would double. No it is not a long range cartridge, But at close range it is very formiddable. I have been a 44 mag nut all my life till I picked up this Redhawk 45 colt. I like it. Just because the cartridge is of an old design don't count it out. My freedom arms 454 just sits now. Don't need that power or recoil any more. Once a bullet passes clean through a animal it really don't matter how much more power it has. The animal is DEAD. I hear stories about caribou killed with 223 mini 14's in the great north. By the book that cartridge is no good for that. Good things animals can't read, eh? If you feel comfortable with your 45 use it. You sound like you are a good enough hunter to get close and know the limitations. Have fun God Bless Steve

walker,

Getting close is more than half the fun, and easily less than 1/2 the work!

I came back to clarify my earlier comments, which might have sounded a bit arrogant...if so, sorry. Mike G certainly has a load that'll work, no doubt. I can recall popping a deer, small spiker, with 2-3 in the chest at 25 yards with Nosler JHP's at that time, probably running about 1200 fps as I recall. I never found him. He died OK, one of my partners found him dead about 4 days later, only 100 yards from where I shot him. But handgun bullets at these speeds won't expand enough and/or exit so that you can find the darn deer soon to be dead. I doubt I'll ever try another chest on shot with a pistol round...but I did switch to XTP's right after that just for that reason, to try to get bigger holes inside.

On an elk, I can't imagine it. You'll kill him for sure, but can you find him? He'll likely leave no blood trail, and these rounds I don't believe are going to drop him where he stood. Just my opinion, which has been wrong so often lately that the disclaimer is needed!

Oh, and as to the 1000 ft lbs, I've read it in magazines lots of times over the years. What it's worth is anyone's guess. I know in WI, where I deer hunt, there are minimum requirements for pistols, and my Grizzly makes it in, just. Now out of a rifle, you've definitely got more speed and probably heavier bullets than my 250's...let some others check in who hunt elk for their opinion. I can imagine the guys in Wyoming laughing you out of the bar, but can't be sure! They may take you for a little drag instead, just for fun.

MikeG,

You reload to knock down trees, yes?

Thank you,

1x2

I've been known to, on occasion!

Those 300grain and up bullets in the .45 Colt will knock down hogs, as well :D

I am sure a 300 grain lbt at 1250 fps will go through a elk broadside at 50 yards out of a hangun and bet it will at 80 to 100 with a rifle. Now if you hit the shoulder bones, No way. If you plink him right off the point of the shoulder you will have a very nice blood trail to follow. Not likely to drop him in his tracks unless you hit his spine, But not many rifles will drop one in its tracks either.Bullet placement is the key to hunting any animal. When I lived in Forresthill Ca. I seen "hippies" shoot mulies with a 22 rifle and seen alot of them die within 50 yards of where they were shot. They would put 3 cci mini-mags through the lungs and follow them. Also seen a few of these deer stumble right off the side of the mountain. Anyway. I don't go to bars anymore and have been laughed at before, But I still would not be afraid to hunt any animal in the lower 48 with a 45 colt. Grizzlers are the exception. I have alot of respect for there ability to make me thier supper, So I leave them alone. God Bless Steve

I read on another board last year, a hunter posted that as he was chasing down an elk in Colorado, he happened across a hunter who was field dressing a buck he'd just dropped with a .357 magnum- IIRC, he used a lever gun as opposed to a revolver.

On one hand, you can generate 1,000 ft/lbs @ 100 yds with 170gr bullet, but it has to have MV of ~1950 fps. Doable, e.g., Buffalo Bore advertises one of their rounds to yield >2,000 fps. That said, a guy could be laughed out of the state if he showed up at a guide's camp with a .357 but I think that may partly be exasperation, as it's quite difficult to get within 125 yds of an elk unless it's bow season/rut, and makes it tough on a guide.

One of the "keep it simple stupid" things I like about shooting HC lead is that you don't have to worry about the expansion properties of a WFN. You do, as we know, have to hit the shoulder, which helps restrict the animal's wandering off too far as mentioned above happens too often. It is hard for me to imagine that a Hornady XTP in .357 has the expansion to do the job "consistently", but maybe so.

Ok (or not), one of the original questions was:

what's the "normal" bore dia. of a .45colt lever gun? .451"? If true, what do people use .454" bullets for? That'd be .003" over, way sticky.

And, a bonus question- how hard is it to drive Marshall's .357mag 185gr WFNGCs to 2,000 fps? Can you do it without leading the barrel?

1x2

I’m afraid I don’t have any answers. I did want to provide the Colorado Min requirements for you though.

From page 6-7 of this years Brochure

http://wildlife.state.co.us/Brochures/BigGame/pdf/index_information.pdf

a rifle must produce 1000 ft/lbs at 100 yds, pistol is 550 ft/lbs at 50 yds….. also states “ as rated by manufacturer.” As a hand loader, guess this is up to you to rate it!!

Good luck

Nate

JR1,

I, too shoot a 45 WM, only out of a TC 10" and personally feel very confident with it. I, however, use the 300 gr XTP's as well as the 250's....got a good charge of 2400 underneath and it makes pretty good hog medicine around here in TX. I got some Beartooth GC'd at the house I am planning on loading up for the next pork harvest down at the lease...so I will hopefully be giving a good report of that round....


And just to be fair, I also own a 44 mag 14" and feel that even with an extra 4" that barrel won't produce the same knock-down as my 10" 45 WM.

Also, just my own experience....if your hunting at close to dusk conditions...don't use H-110...use 296...the fireball that 110 creates is amazing...and blinding....296 ain't near as bad...diffrent coating even though they are both the same...

Darrell

ntjaxn,

I'll be darned. I spent a good amount of time on Colorado's website and found (vague) references, but no requirements as you stated. Thanks for setting that straight. I was looking at the regs- didn't think to look for the application.

1x2 if you haven't seen this article it might answer some of your questions.http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

I hunt with the 45 colt in a rifle.
My choice of firearm is the Smith Mountain gun and a Winchester 94 trapper in 45 colt.
I'll be honest, I never measured the bore, I just purchased the 452 bullets and shot it. At 50 yards, I can touch holes with the gun using 265, 280, 300, and 310, by just adjusting the sights to the load. The gun truly prefers the 280 grainers. At 100, even with it's short 16" barrel, I can consistantly shoot about 3" groups.
I have no doubt that one of Marshall's bullets, loaded correctly, would drop an elk within an appropriate range.

Chris~

No problem,

Left over info from my hunters saftey course

Good Luck

Nate

.45colt,
That article has some good info in it, by wading through the ramblings- thanks.

m141a,
Good info, thank you. How hot do you load the MG25 and how is it holding up?

1x2

Hey CookieMonster, nice to see there's a couple of us around! I'm hitting 1400 fps with the 250's. I'd bet with your 300's in the 10" you're at 1600+? So that's gotta be a hitter for sure.

Bottom line, for a good shooter who's patient, anything will work. Then there's real hunting all the rest of the time, when things don't go right or you aren't all right...

BTW, I have found the Hornady SST's to drop deer where they stand every time so far...as to elk, have no idea.

1x2;

The Mountain gun gets nuthin hotter than 950-1000fps.

most times, they are running about 850-900.

I do pick up the speed on the ammo for the Winnie though....run them about 12-1300. Load those as if it was a Blackhawk. Spoke to Winchester about it, said the gun could handle it.

what's the "normal" bore dia. of a .45colt lever gun? .451"? If true, what do people use .454" bullets for? That'd be .003" over, way sticky.1x2The way the story goes is prior to WWII, Colt .45 single actions had a nominal bore diameter of .454" so the ammo and reloading companys went accordingly. Sometime after WWII, Colt changed the specs. to .452" (.4515") since that was the nominal bore diameter of the 1911's. Unfortunately, they left the chamber throats .454" creating complaints of poor accuracy and it took them a while to reduce chamber throats to the new specs. Late model .45 Colt lever guns should be bored .452" but slug the barrel to be really sure. In fact, it would be a good idea to slug the barrel on any firearm where bore diameter is in question.

Thanks very much, guys, for the info. I I've a new question- new post, based on this run.... oh, oh. :)
1x2

After reading all the responses to the abilities of the 45 colt to take or not take an elk, I'm wondering how the heck people survived before the 338s, 458s, and other "modern" hunting rounds were developed. Lets see, buffalo and elk were killed by sticks with points on the end, thousands of buffalo were killed by black powder 45-70, 90, 110 etc; at around 1300fps at ranges up to 800 yards. And at 100 yards I think a 45 cal.hard cast (21) bullet at 1300fps would definitly go through both shoulders of and elk broadside. I see pictures all the time of guys killing elk with bow and arrow, albeit at close range, but they kill em. Are there better rounds than a 45 colt to hunt elk , darn right, would I hunt elk with one? Nope. If I ever get close enough to shoot one I at least want an 06 at hand. Don't hunt with bow and arrow either. Read an article years ago about an Englishman who still hunted dangerous game in Africa with a 600 nitro express when almost everone else was using the "new" 458, when asked why, his response was "because they bloody well
don't make a 900 nitro express!!." Is there a point to all this? Probably, but it escapes me. Just teasin, I get more info reading this forum than anywhere else. Glad you guys are all on here.

A response for 1x2, look in Handloader issue no. 223 June 2003, an article "handguns and bears" info on the 357's ability with the "right" bullet choices. Personally the choices wouldn't matter to me if faced with a charging brown bear, gun or bullet wouldn't matter, I've never been able to hit anything running and shooting over my shoulder anyway. I don't think I would insult his daughter either. What cajones!!!