The use will be for whitetail deer with shooting distances between 25 and 100 yards. Most likely 40 to 75 yards. In thick Upper MI woods.

I'm still trying to find a great little starter gun for my very young and small 12 year old nefew.

I use a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem but the rest of the hunting party calls it a pop gun. As they all have 308's and 30-06. So a 44 mag would be ridiculed for sure since my 35 Rem is.

Give me some ammunition as to why or why not I should not consider the 44 mag.

I really think the 336 with a shortened stock in 30-30, 35 Rem or if you all can convince me, the 44 Mag would be my top choices.

Comparing a 35 Rem to a 44 Mag is comparing apples and oranges.

For the distances you've stated, either will be more than adequate for woods hunting for whitetail when fired from a rifle. Have used both ( the 35 Rem in a T/C 14" bbl and the 44 Mag in a Ruger 18" bbl carbine) and both worked fine.

The 35 Rem knocked the buck off his feet at about 75 yds and anchored him where hit. The 44 Mag hit at around 50 yds and the buck went another 50 yds before bleeding out. Both bullets exited the far side with generous holes.

If you get the 44 Mag levergun, your nephew may come up on the short end because you'll have so much fun with it, he'll never get to use it! :D

You know, regardless of what others say, you can't go wrong with a .30-30, and if you are taking game, what's the problem?

Not having shot a .44 mag rifle, I am just guessing here, but don't the .35 and .30-30 have similar recoil for much more range than the .44? I would think that in the future, the .35 and .30-30 would be the better choices for versatility. They can both be loaded up to screaming meanies, and provide 150 plus yards of opportunity, and in the right hands, out to 200 yds. Somehow, I don't think most .44 mag shooters are willing to go there, not that it isn't a fine cartridge in it's own right.

Find an older .35 Rem or .30-30 and once he starts taking game, he will be a happy little man.

BTW - I love the .35 Rem and carry one in the woods also. I have a '94 in .32 WS that I like just as well, so I may be a little biased.

Good luck!

Open sights or scoped?

The .44 will take'em as far as most can shoot open sights accurately - good for those ranges you quote.

The .35 is more versitile and mounts on a slightly heavier rifle which mounts a scope better than the handier 1894 carbine. The round is practical to 200yds or so - so, the scope could be useful (btw- scopes on leverguns are like salt on ice cream;)) .

Practice (and knowing where to place the round) is more important than the rifle you choose. A little open sight 1894 or 1892 and couple of days letting the kid plink at various ranges will get him started as a rifleman... I find you shoot fewer "deer" cartridges in practice - expense and recoil seem to limit plinking "fun" to 20-40 rounds, whereas a couple hundred pistol rounds always seem to get expended with the carbines (particularly if reloaded). You can make up, or buy, recoilless loads (.44spl) to work the boy up to the sharper mag/hunting loads. More practice=better rifleman.

PS - I'd avoid the crescent butt repros - they knife into the shoulder and are far less comfortable to shoot than the "shotgun" butt carbines with heavy loads.

As soon as I read this, I immediately thought about Marshall's article on the 30-06. You could always go that route as well. Get an -06 and load it down. For what you mention, you could handload 150 or 170 gr 30-30 bullets to 2400 fps and you get the best of both worlds. A rifle that does a great job with minimal recoil, and none of the guys in camp are going to ridicule him for having a "pop gun". You cannot beat that for versatility, either.

amndouglas

eagleeye,

I arrived at Deer Camp one year in New Mexico, and everyone wanted to know if I was serrious about using a pistol caliber carbine, (357/44 B&D) I just told them I was there to hunt, not snipe. Everyone was supprised when I took a shot at around 100 yards and downed a 4X4 buck with one shot. The bullet went out the far side and the Buck only went around 10 feet before collapsing. I don't feel that the lad would be undergunned with a .44 Mag. or a .35 Rem. After all our fore-fathers used the .44-40 for deer and Elk, and it doesn't have near the power of the .44 Mag.. Next time your choice is attacked, ask how many of them hunt the black powder season. You may not be able to make the long shots, with a .35 or a .44 but you can still hunt within reasonable ranges. And like kdub said, your nephew will probably not get to hunt the .44, as you will be having too much fun with it.

Lee L.

The trouble with loading down a 30-06 is that the rifle itself is too big and heavy for a 12 year old. You can buy an 18-inch barrel 30-06 but they are unpleasant with anything except reduced loads. Even the 35 Rem in a Marlin or Remington tend to be heavy. Get a Ruger 96/44 lever action in 44
magnum if you can find one. It's short and light,
and will kill deer fine to 100 yards.

Over the years, I've downed deer with many cartridges. Diameter before striking the animal is not as important as many would suggest.

44 MAG is quite lethal and makes very large holes through deer. My favorite ammo is Hornady with 200 grain XTP bullet. Their 240 grain bullet is also quite effective indeed. Both bullets produce deadly wounds because of their unique hollow tip design. In other words, these bullets produce tissue damage that is far beyond what paper ballistic charts would suggest.

35 Remington is not a pop gun. It is used each and every year to down moose in Canada and Maine. Elk across the Rocky Mt. States and Provinces are also felled by this oldy but goody. Recoil can feel stout to a beginner.

44 Special ammo has zero recoil in a carbine. Very easy to train a new shooter with this ammo. Next step is 44 MAG ammo which can be stout but manageable with a little coaching. The 200 grain bullet produces noticeably less recoil than the 240 and heavier weights.

30-30 and 32 Special are always good choices for the forest and foothill hunters. Although uncommon, 38-55 is also a good cartridge.
TR

For 40 - 75 yard distances, as you expect, a .30-06 is more than extreme overkill! I've shot a lot of critters with a .30-06 but mainly I carry it when expecting more open country and longer range stuff.

The trajectory difference between the .35 and .44 mag (rifle) will not be great. The .35 Rem will out-range the .44 by maybe 25 yards or a bit more; a typical 2" high at 100 yards will yield a 150 yard zero for the .35 and a 125 yard zero for the .44 mag. This will vary a bit depending on the exact load & velocity, but you get the idea. Both cartridges start heading downhill rapidly after the zero range and somewhere at 25 to maybe 40 yards beyond that, it's time to start holding over.

Anyway that is all academic given the short ranges you anticipate.

I'd worry a lot less about what your hunting partners think and just get what will work well for the situation. In fact a .30-30 should be just fine for a beginner to start out with for short range deer hunting.

While I do really like the .35 Rem, it will add some fair amount of recoil and that's no small thing to the beginner. My .35 Rem has a fair amount of bite to it, with a short lightweight stock, and I finally gave up and put a recoil pad on it. And I can shoot a .338 Win Mag from the bench (though that takes concentration). The .44 mag rifles can range from mild to severe, recoil-wise, depending on the load and stock profile and weight of the gun.

The only real negative on the .30-30 is finding lower-recoil loads to practice with; however, the 'cowboy action' loads may be just the ticket.

Cut the stock to fit and spend the money to put a good recoil pad on it. I think that a .30-30 is the best bet, all things considered. Heck it's a kid... anybody that ridiculed his gun, might find my bootprints on their rear end in short order.

Mike G'

Your 100% right about the boot print, that is one easy way to discourage a new hunter, and should be frowned on by any sportsman. Always give a new hunter all the encouragement possible.

Lee L.

I can't tell you about the 35 Remington as have never owned one, but had one of the first 44 mag carbines Ruger came out with. Used factory jacketed bullets loaded for the carbine, at that time you could buy them in boxes of 20 just like the big boys. I can't for the life of me remember what brand they were.

Anyway out to a hundred yards with a front shoulder shot they were devistating on deer and they never did much meat damage. Used to carry one of those little carbines clipped to the door of my old Dodge powerwagon. Boy was that a deer killer.

You might look at Ruger's nice little 77-44 also for a starter gun, I like the safety of a bolt action a little bit better than a auto or lever for a first time gun and they are light and easy to carry.

I have owned and shot all three calibers: 30-30, 35, and 44 mag. The 30-30 has the least recoil and the 44 mag the worst recoil. A full power 44 mag cartridge is no fun to shoot.

A better choice might be a 357 Marlin rifle. It will kill deer cleanly out to 80 yards with factory ammo and 100 yards with hard cast bullets. Your nephew can practice with 38 cartridges in the off season with very little recoil. You can make it more fun by blowing up balloons for him to shoot. Kids like to pop balloons. The important thing is to make it fun. If the gun hurts him when he shoots, he will not have fun and he will either quit or develop bad shooting habits.

The 35, 30-30, and 44 MAG are all excellent cartridges for the youngin'. Teach them to HUNT first, then let them graduate into the long guns. Kids should learn how to get their quarry within close range and hone their hunting skills. I can think of no better gun to use than a good lever gun.

I have owned and shot all three calibers: 30-30, 35, and 44 mag. The 30-30 has the least recoil and the 44 mag the worst recoil. A full power 44 mag cartridge is no fun to shoot.

A better choice might be a 357 Marlin rifle. It will kill deer cleanly out to 80 yards with factory ammo and 100 yards with hard cast bullets. Your nephew can practice with 38 cartridges in the off season with very little recoil. You can make it more fun by blowing up balloons for him to shoot. Kids like to pop balloons. The important thing is to make it fun. If the gun hurts him when he shoots, he will not have fun and he will either quit or develop bad shooting habits.


Good point, I think the Marlin 357 would be a great choice for a young hunter if the ranges are going to be what you described. Otherwise go with the 30-30

I too have used all these loadings to some degree of sucess. While the handgun loads are attractive they lack the power of the rifle loads. The 30-30 still out prforms the 44 Mag beyond 100 yards and way out does the 357 loads of any factory maker. You would be doing this young hunter a favor by going to a higer velocity load as a 7mm-o8 or .260 Rem. in a Browning BLR. A 7 mm -08 can be loaded with 120 grain bullets up to 175 grain bullets and give good performance. The Deer don't care what you shoot them with it's where you place the shot that counts. Good luck, Alan.

I too have used all these loadings to some degree of sucess. While the handgun loads are attractive they lack the power of the rifle loads. The 30-30 still out prforms the 44 Mag beyond 100 yards and way out does the 357 loads of any factory maker. You would be doing this young hunter a favor by going to a higer velocity load as a 7mm-o8 or .260 Rem. in a Browning BLR. A 7 mm -08 can be loaded with 120 grain bullets up to 175 grain bullets and give good performance. The Deer don't care what you shoot them with it's where you place the shot that counts. Good luck, Alan.

I'd have to disagree with that. Paper ballistics are just that, paper.

The handgun cartridges in a rifle add 100+ yards of range in terms of terminal ballistics. It is is a simple matter to look up the velocities of handgun rounds, then see what the rifle boosts them to. Add 300+ feet per second to the rifle chambering, and you've added an easy 100 yards. It's all in the ballistics tables.

Thus..... the .44 mag (or .357 mag, etc.) rifle chambering, is at least as effective at 150 yards as the .44 mag (or .357, etc.) handgun is at 50. If we accept that the .44 mag is easily lethal to a whitetail at 50 yards (and the last one I shot with my super blackhawk at that range is still dead), then the .44 mag rifle does the same thing 100+ yards farther out.

I'll agree that the .44 has a little on the .357 .... but the last deer I shot with a .357 handgun at say 25 yards or so, expired neatly. No question that a .357 rifle is gonna do the job to 125 yards and beyond.

My .45 Colt cowboy hits about 1700fps in a 24" barrel, with 300 grain bullets. A .45 cal cast bullet from a handgun at about 1,000 will go through a pig, lengthwise, and drop it in the dirt. Been there, done that. Figure the rifle is adding about 200 yards of range to that, if not more. Trajectory, not "power," becomes the limiting factor.

Recoil with the .44 mag / .45 colt becomes somewhat brutal in a light rifle, though. For that reason, not ballistics, I'd pick the .30-30 first as a kid rifle.

Figure the .30-30 stretches the 'point blank' range of a typical rifle to 175 yards, or a maybe a bit further. So it picks up a few yards on the pistol chamberings, no doubt.

Welcome to the forum, also!

I too have used all these loadings to some degree of sucess. While the handgun loads are attractive they lack the power of the rifle loads. The 30-30 still out prforms the 44 Mag beyond 100 yards and way out does the 357 loads of any factory maker. You would be doing this young hunter a favor by going to a higer velocity load as a 7mm-o8 or .260 Rem. in a Browning BLR. A 7 mm -08 can be loaded with 120 grain bullets up to 175 grain bullets and give good performance. The Deer don't care what you shoot them with it's where you place the shot that counts. Good luck, Alan.


I used to think way that too, until I started putting pencil sized holes through deer and haveing to track deer way more than I wanted to. A marlin 357 carbine shooting something like 180gr federal cast core will simply knock the snot out of any whitetail easily out to 100 yards. It will leave a good entry and exit hole. the deer won't go far and you will have lots of blood to follow. Also no massive tissue damage, 'eat right up to the hole' as they say. No disrespect towards you, just a difference of oppinon. Your milage may vary. :D

The ignoramuses that chant the "popgun" mantra amuse me to no end.
The 35 Remington works very well at woods ranges.

I'm a 30-30 kind of guy, and I LOVE to annoy the "Magnum" crowd - I've taken countless deer with the 30-30. Most of them either dropped in their tracks or moved very little.

If the Bozos in your party want to antagonize a kid with a 35 or 44 carbine, maybe you ought to seek new hunting partners.

We're supposed to be teaching young hunters to really ENJOY the hunt - ethically and honorably.
The kid won't forget rude, obnoxious comments from supposedly "mature" hunters.

Good luck & good shooting.

There are a lot of good Marlins floating around chambered in 35 Rem., I would lean towards that. If I saw a 44 Rem along the way, I would buy it.

I have both and more... they are all sighted in for 100+ yard hunting and do a fine job. There was a fellow over on MarlinOwners last week that had a 336 Texan for sale. That is one sweet rifle built back in the early 60's.