The Puma .454 Casull lever guns are available from many dealers and are being sent to others. Do you plan to buy one? Why? Why not?

Thanks,
Timberwolf

Timberwolf,

Good question, was touched on a little bit before: http://shootersforum.com/cgi-bin....10;st=0 (http://shootersforum.com/cgi-bin/shoot/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=510;st=0)

Hopefully by now there is someone with hands on experience or insight(s).

Dan

Since you asked...   I don't see the advantage of filling the gap between the .44 Mag (or hot loaded .45LC) and the 45-70 if you have either. But, if I had neither then it would be a viable option with certain advantages over both. Too bad the Marlin 1894 action isn't strong enough to handle that round. That would be nearly perfect.

Stranger,

I suspect some folks might consider the combination of the .454 Casull revolver and lever action, versus the .45LC and 45-70, to be a better combination (or more convenient) because it would allow the interchange of bullets and brass or complete cartridge that the .45LC and 45-70 would not. This begs the issue of the .454 Casull not quite being the 45-70's equal.

Dan

Dan:

I didn't mean the .45LC revolver. I was talking about rifles only. If you already have a pistol caliber RIFLE chambered in 44 rem mag OR in 45LC AND another levergun in 45-70 then I don't see the point of bridging the gap between the two with a third rifle in 454.

Having said that... If I had no other leverguns my dream rifle would be a stainless Marlin 1894 in 454 Casull with a 16" barrel.

Hey all,

Winchester has been arround over 100 years so I think I will wait until they make a trapper 16" 454. Just a thought.....Braden

I can't wait another 100 years!! :)

Hi y'all,
             The Puma is a respectable Win. '92 clone. It's probably as close as you're going to get to the "real deal".

Stranger,

Understood and agreed.

Dan

Hi Mike:

Have you shot one? How well do they hold up?

No, Stranger, I've not even seen one, yet. I have handled the 44-40 and 44 Mag. guns, and thought well of them. I'm not altogether sure about the capabilities of the 454 guns. Only time and experience will tell. Heck, I'm still workin' on the older calibers like 33, 38-56, 45-70, 45-90, and so on. I'll probably never get to something like the 454. 'Ya never know, though.
                Keep up the great posts, mike

Just got a chance to handle a 454 Puma at the gun shop. It looks solid and generally well made. The barrel and reciever flats are nicely polished and deeply blued. Some roughness and tool marks on the sides of the hammer. Did not get a chance to cycle the action (wire-tie wrapped by the store). There's a BIG recoil pad. Probably well needed. Felt like only 6.5 lbs. The stock and forearm are made from very dark, dense, grainless (and ugly) brazillian wood with a flat oil finish. It looks like that ugly dark wood on some of those old British SMLEs. The sights are utilitarian (no bead). The top of the bolt has that new Taurus safety on it just like the one on their new model 62 pump rimfires. The mag tube has a loading port just like a tube fed .22 but you can load from the loading gate too. It was fairly priced at $415 (northern calif).

All in all, I'm not sure if this rifle is on my menu.

Wow! I just finished chatting with six friends who are avid levergun men. At first they were determined come rain and high water to purchase a Puma .454 Casull. Now it is different. They have decided against it due in part to the fact that they don't believe it fills a niche. One even said, "Man, why do we need the .454 casull when we already have the capabilities of 'hot loading' the .45 Colt to near Casull power and velocity with a lot less pressure! And, if I want something hotter I will move up to the .444 or the .45-70. I don't believe the Puma .454 are gonna catch on like people think. Right now everybody on the Casull wagon, but within two years I believe the wagon will come apart." Strong language, huh? How many of us believe he's right?

Regards,
Timberwolf

This is a simple question to answer.

Yes, because I do not have one. ;)

I do not like that dark finish they put on the stock either. I have a Rossi 92 Puma(Rifleman) that has natural Brazilian hardwood. It is beautiful. I have a Legacy (Rossi) 92 with that dark finish. I also have a Winchester 1892(circa 1895) with "naturally aged" wood. They look the same. I think that Rossi is trying to give their rifles that classic look for the Cowboy shooters.

As for that dark classic finish. <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://shootersforum.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo--> *I am slowly replacing the stocks with saddle ring style stocks in walnut. I am doing the same to my Winchester 94's. <a href="http://www.precisiongunstocks.com/" target='_blank'>http://www.precisiongunstocks.com/</a>

When I finally get around to it I plan on having one of my Rossi's rebarreled to 41Mag. Why? Because I do not have one. Maybe one in 38-40 too.

Yanqui

Yanqui, I've already checked with a Rossi gunsmith about having one of mine rebarreled to .38-40. I was told that .38-40 barrels for the Rossi carbines are non-existent at this point in time. Do you have a source for some? I would love to get one if they are available. The .38-40 would be fun to shoot.

Regards,
Timberwolf

Hi all,
I went and got mine today. *I think I'm gonna like it just fine. *As far as needing to fill a niche, I don't. I have a Marlin 1894 in .357 and .41 mag, an 1895 45-70, and a Browning 1885 in .454 Casull. *So I really don't even need another .454 rifle. It was a choice between lever actions, either the .454 or a .45 colt. &nbsp;I chose the .454. *I might not have the chance again. *I'll probably still get the .45 colt &nbsp;eventually . I know me pretty well that way. &nbsp;Most of the guns I own I shoot only occasionally. Some I have just for collector's value. I do have my favorite shooters though that are on the range with me all the time.

I don't really beleive the Puma M92 .454 fills any gap that hasn't already been filled in a rifle, it's just the idea of the thing and it's another gun to perfect new loads for. *That's where I have my fun.

It may actually be a bit more versatile than the 45-70 and .45 colt rifle combined, simply because of a wider range of available bullet weights both in manufactured bullets and bullet molds for a single gun. I'm not saying you can meet or beat max performance of a 45-70, but you can get 45-70 ballistics with bullet weights all the way up to 405 grains. (out of my Highwall. That round may be too long for the lever action)

I haven't shot it yet but it feels good. *It weighs about six pounds and aiming is quick and instinctive. The trigger pull out of the box is good.

It looks good to me. Some people don't seem to like that dark wood with it's oil finish but I like that look. *It's also easier to care for than some other finishes. All in all I believe it's a rifle worth having. *If it doesn't catch on and they discontinue it in a year or two that, to me, is just one more reason to own it. *Especially one of the first releases. *PC

Timberwolf,

Sure, no problem. I didn't think about looking for a Rossi barrel in 38-40. That would be cheaper than having a barrel made. Here is the e-mail address and address for the company that acquired the parts from Interarms.

M & M Gunsmithing
204 S union St
Alexandria, VA 22314
703-739-2150
703-739-9890 fax
clellan@erols.com (Mike McClellan)


But if that does not pan out then here is a web site that can help you out. The only thing is that to have them rebarrel will cost more than your rifle. But sometimes it is something you have to do.

http://www.montanarifleman.com/

Yanqui

Probably wait and see how long before one comes apart. Don't know what test loads were used. Don't know how many factory loads were tested, etc. Maybe in a year or so if the feedback is possitive. RKBA!

On Friday afternoon I dropped by the local shop to checkout my latest '86 Winchester which had just arrived via FedEx. While hangin' around I asked if he had seen the Puma 454. The answer was in the affirmative; he just happened to have one arrive. So, I had to take a look. Not a bad looking piece, nice deep bluing and dark wood, but, finished a little too glossy for me. The price is $319. Even though I've zero experience with the Casull, I'm kinda taken with it. It may be mine soon. After all, it is a levergun.

Very good price considering the power output! &nbsp;Hmmmm.... I may just have to come up with one. &nbsp;Probably all I'd ever shoot would be my 30,000CUP .45 Colt loads, nothing around here is mean enough to need more.

Man, there is quite a bit of controversy on this matter. When will it come apart? Will it hold up to the pressures? I have seen this subject on a few other forums.

In one forum an "expert" discusses the subject in detail. How "They" tested several loads of the 454 Casull on various lever action manufacturers. The pressures that the rifles endured. How they came apart. How the expert does not recommend any leveraction in the 454 Casull. But "They" will be coming out with something in the near future. Now get this the "expert" is anonymous. But the person in one forum that posted it has total confidence in the expert. The expert was posted at sixgunner.com and his post acknowledged by another in a different forum. I found the first post at http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/messages/14224.shtml and then guided to this post from the first http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20005

As far I am concerned it is all a bunch of bull.

I personally think that most of these "experts" are biased. One expert for sure is greedy. The "anonymous expert" wants you to save your money because "they" will be coming out with something.

For years, until recently I have heard that Rossi's are garbage. Even a gun shop fire was credited to a Rossi. I can also remember that Uberti's were garbage as well as Bushmaster.

Do you think that a manufacturer would put out a product that could potentially harm you if it failed without some sort of testing? Think of the liability, especially with our lawsuit happy society.

Of course Rossi will have a statement to use only factory ammunition. Duh!!

A friend of mine from work was out shooting his Ruger Super Blackhawk. He does his own reloading.
Well, on one of his rounds the bullet fell out. I guess he reloaded it to many times and the crimp failed. So what did he do? I still cannot believe it. He put the bullet back in to the casing. And he pressed it all the way down. I mean in set it deep. He loaded it in to the Super Blackhawk and fired. There was a big boom. Luckily no injury. The cylinder was ruptured. He took it off and beat back the torn metal. Put the cylinder back in. He said it is now a 5 shooter. Tough firearm. Still shoots.

What's the point? Any firearm can be damaged/destroyed if over pressurized. Duh!!

If you are worried about it coming apart then do not load it hot. Stay within the recommended loaded pressures. Seems pretty simple to me.

My Colt Delta Elite never came apart as I was told it would.

Yanqui

I found this old thread in a search and thought I would make a few comments. I have 2 Ruger Bisley Vaquero's in 45 Colt and 2 Ruger Super Redhawks in 454 Casull as well as a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 and a Winchester 1894 30-30.

I sold my Marlin 1894CB 45 Colt early last year and have been looking to replace it with another 45 Colt rifle but in stainless steel this time.

I finally purchased a 20" barreled s/s Puma M92 454 Casull yesterday.

When I took the new rifle out of the box I was suprised by the fit and finish of the metal parts they where way better than I was expecting. I was totally disapointed in the look of the wood and upon closer inspection noticed that there was a crack in the foreend on the left side just in front of the barrel band. I then looked at the butt stock and saw another crack in the wood on the left side of the rifle again but beside the tang.

I pointed these cracks out to the fellow that sold me the gun and we now have a new set of stocks coming today.

I also tried feeding thru the action all of my different 45 Colt bullets from 200gr RNFP's to 345gr Beartooth WLNGC's, I then tried my 454 Casull loads from 240gr XTP-Mag's to 395gr Cast Performance WLNGC's and they feed thru the action perfectly as well. I haven't had a chance to reload any more of my 405gr Beartooth WLNGC's yet so can't comment on how they feed yet.

I'll up date later when I get the stocks replaced and take the gun to the gun club to give it a workout.

There's a BIG recoil pad. Probably well needed. Felt like only 6.5 lbs. The stock and forearm are made from very dark, dense, grainless (and ugly) brazillian wood with a flat oil finish. It looks like that ugly dark wood on some of those old British SMLEs. The sights are utilitarian (no bead).

All in all, I'm not sure if this rifle is on my menu.[/QUOTE]
I stripped that dark gook off my Puma and revealed some fine wood,most will say that is the case.The pad is ugly but yes it's needed.The sights are by far the worst,a Williams FP solved that.
That said, I love my 454Puma.No regrets on buying it.I wanted a LIGHT powerful BB lever as a backup for my Model 444.
The puma did the job.

I took the M92 to the gun club to do a bit of sighting in, after I fired my first shot and when I extracted the fired 454 brass there was a very shiny ring about 1/2 way up the inside of the case.

After I put about 30 45 Colts and 20 454 Casull's thru the gun I raced off home feeling that something wasn't right. I had 20 454 brass that I couldn't use again.

The next day when I had a few minutes I cleaned the rifle again and took a light and inspected the chamber to see why the rings formed on the 454 brass.

I was suspecting that maybe I hadn't cleaned the chamber and had left a ring of grease or something like it.

I was amazed to see a groove ripped into the chamber that could only have happened during the maching process.

To say that I am disappointed is an understatement.

The rifle is now back at the dealer getting exchanged for an other one as soon as it come in.

I have never seen a rifle with such poor quality controls before.

Other than the complaints that I have stated the gun performed perfectly and velocities where excellent. The sights suck as well and I am going to look at finding something better.
20" barrel
240gr XTP-Mag = 2320fps
300gr XTP-Mag = 1850fps
300gr SP G/D = 1890fps
360gr C/P WLNGC = 1840fps
395gr C/P WLNGC = 1645fps

I didn't have a chance to load more of my new 405gr Beartooth bullets yet so didn't get to try them out.

I bought a Rossi M92 carbine in 44 Mag about 8 years ago and was really dissapointed with the flat black wood. I took the stock and handguard off, chemically stripped them and gave them a ting oil finish; great improvement.

This is a good shooting little rifle; I use Remington 240 Gr, JHPs with 24 Gr. of W296.



John I. Smith
Bedford PA

I just picked up my new replacement M92 454 Casull tonight I'll get to the range Friday and give it a try.

This one has great looking wood and everything looks good.

That was an interesting article. I agree it is BS. The 92 is a mini 1886. He claims they are developing a New? gun based on it? Seems fishy. A buddy and I have put about 300 rounds with weights from 255 to 400 grains through his and I can tell you it hasn't fallen apart. My shoulder felt like it was going to after that session though.

TIMBERWOLF
I've own mine since 2003, I bought it after I got my SRH 454
Wanted a companion for the pistol! Great little gun, just give that extra demession to the 454 Casull cartridge! In the pistol the 454 is great in the rifle it's outstanding! More power then I'd ever need for anything I'd want to hunt anywhere! :D

Well, hold on, I currently own a Handi Rifle chambered in 500 S&W, I bought this, thinking it would be a nice little rifle to carry around, well, I ran a few Magtech 400 Grainers over the chrony, and, low and behold, the 500 S&W picked up an extra, 200 FPS over the factories listing,the claimed fac MV was 1600, I got anywhere from 1900-2010, outta my handi Rifle, I can imagine that the .454 Casull, outta that Puma, would make a great little gun with that extra Ommph, now, I don't think it out does the tried and true 45-70, though.

I took the M92 to the gun club to do a bit of sighting in, after I fired my first shot and when I extracted the fired 454 brass there was a very shiny ring about 1/2 way up the inside of the case.

After I put about 30 45 Colts and 20 454 Casull's thru the gun I raced off home feeling that something wasn't right. I had 20 454 brass that I couldn't use again.

The next day when I had a few minutes I cleaned the rifle again and took a light and inspected the chamber to see why the rings formed on the 454 brass.

I was suspecting that maybe I hadn't cleaned the chamber and had left a ring of grease or something like it.

I was amazed to see a groove ripped into the chamber that could only have happened during the maching process.

To say that I am disappointed is an understatement.

The rifle is now back at the dealer getting exchanged for an other one as soon as it come in.

I have never seen a rifle with such poor quality controls before.

Other than the complaints that I have stated the gun performed perfectly and velocities where excellent. The sights suck as well and I am going to look at finding something better.
20" barrel
240gr XTP-Mag = 2320fps
300gr XTP-Mag = 1850fps
300gr SP G/D = 1890fps
360gr C/P WLNGC = 1840fps
395gr C/P WLNGC = 1645fps

I didn't have a chance to load more of my new 405gr Beartooth bullets yet so didn't get to try them out.
That is what you get when you buy crappy non- big name guns.

I hav a 92 Puma in .454 and i can say it will hold up if you dont try to make it a 45-70. It will fill the bill as a in between gun and kill anything a 45-70 will. It still remains a light handy rifle with a lot more punch than a .45 Colt and just a bit less than the 45-70. All that i have killed with it were deer, and a couple of ground hogs, five feral hogs and a black bear . Mine likes a 300 grain Beartooth behind 30.0 grains of H-110 for about 1950 f.p.s. That is a .454 on steroids. Accuracy is about the same as any other big bore lever gun keeping all shots in 2 inches or so at 100 yards. Hard Cast P.S the Rossi is made by Tarus.

I hav a 92 Puma in .454 and i can say it will hold up if you dont try to make it a 45-70. It will fill the bill as a in between gun and kill anything a 45-70 will. It still remains a light handy rifle with a lot more punch than a .45 Colt and just a bit less than the 45-70. All that i have killed with it were deer, and a couple of ground hogs, five feral hogs and a black bear . Mine likes a 300 grain Beartooth behind 30.0 grains of H-110 for about 1950 f.p.s. That is a .454 on steroids. Accuracy is about the same as any other big bore lever gun keeping all shots in 2 inches or so at 100 yards. Hard Cast P.S the Rossi is made by Tarus.
Hi HC,

Just picked up a Pume 454 (18" ported, HI-Viz). Lots of questions for ya.

1. got any good 45LC loads?
2. What size pigs and what type boolit (rnfp, swc ?)
3. What is the recoil like on your loads?

In general I'm gonna use mine for hogs (100 - 150 lbs here in FL) and some range shooting. So I would like to know about what to use to knock a pig down at maybe 75-100 yards that I could also use at the range. I'm in the process of getting my reloading press etc so I can shoot more. My son has the Puma in 44Mag which will be used the same way so if ya have any ideas for loads ands boolits for that as well I would appreciate it. :)

Hazcat, i use hard cast bullets exclusivley. A l.b.t.design using a modifeid Keith nose and a large meplate is the key to large wound channels and fairly straight penetration. Beartooth makes some very good ones and im going to look at the 280 grain and play with it this spring. I have one .44 mag in a 7 1/2 ' Ruger S.B and it likes 17.0 grains of AA#9 and a 300 grain L.F.N. gas check . It will put three rounds tuching each other at 50 yards and will penetrate a Muley stem to stern at 60 yards. As far as .45 Colt - .454 Casul loads go they are taken from any good reloading manual and carefully worked up until accuracy and velocity is obtained. My favorite .45 Colt load is a 300 grain L.F.N.g.c. 18.5 grains of AA #9 for about 1225 f.p.s. in my 6" Ruger. This load is medium heavy recoil load but will kill any thing in N.A.The Load forum of this site is an excelent one and i have used some .475 loads from it and just may put some in who knows. One thing i have learned, is that every rifle or hand gun is a blank page when it somes to handloading. You have to find the safe load that it likes. I and others could post loads all day long and your paticular weapon may only like one or two or maybe none of them. Happy reloading and always remember there are no dumb questions just dumb answers. Hard Cast

Hazcat, i use hard cast bullets exclusivley. A l.b.t.design using a modifeid Keith nose and a large meplate is the key to large wound channels and fairly straight penetration. Beartooth makes some very good ones and im going to look at the 280 grain and play with it this spring. I have one .44 mag in a 7 1/2 ' Ruger S.B and it likes 17.0 grains of AA#9 and a 300 grain L.F.N. gas check . It will put three rounds tuching each other at 50 yards and will penetrate a Muley stem to stern at 60 yards. As far as .45 Colt - .454 Casul loads go they are taken from any good reloading manual and carefully worked up until accuracy and velocity is obtained. My favorite .45 Colt load is a 300 grain L.F.N.g.c. 18.5 grains of AA #9 for about 1225 f.p.s. in my 6" Ruger. This load is medium heavy recoil load but will kill any thing in N.A.The Load forum of this site is an excelent one and i have used some .475 loads from it and just may put some in who knows. One thing i have learned, is that every rifle or hand gun is a blank page when it somes to handloading. You have to find the safe load that it likes. I and others could post loads all day long and your paticular weapon may only like one or two or maybe none of them. Happy reloading and always remember there are no dumb questions just dumb answers. Hard Cast
Thanks! I realize all guns are a bit different but I was looking for some starting grounds. Especially what powder and bullet size. I like that you use #9 for both loads. I have been looking in many manuals (speers, lee) and powder sites for an idea on what powder would be good for both and was trying to decide between #7, #9 and H110.

Well the LSI Puma M92 may not be a big name but it is the only name in town that has a 454 Casull rifle and that makes it a perfectly viable platform for me to get what I am looking for in a 454 rifle.

Yes the first one sucked but the replacement rifle's fit and finish including the quality of wood are exactly what I expected for the amount of money that I spent.

I will have my local gunsmith tweak up the action and I am gong to replace the sights with XS Cowboy Express sights so I can use the rifle for both SASS and as a bush gun. Here's a link to the sights...
http://xssights.com/store/specialty.html

I am sending the original stocks to gunstocksinc right away to have him make to my specifications a black/gray laminate set. I will also be installing a Kick-Eez recoil pad to help absorb the recoil a bit better than the stock recoil pad.

This rifle has great potential...

Hazcat, Lee dies also include good staring loads and do not exceed loads. Always start at the start load weight and work up slowly. Caution!!! straight walled cases are notorious for not showing the classic pressure signs. Good hand loading, and always remember ten fingers are better than nine. Hard Cast

Hazcat
Any of the "Ruger only" loads are fine in 45 LC!
As for recoil with the stout 454 loads it will get your attention! My 325 gr reload will get you seeing double after 5 or 6 rounds! :)

The reason i didn't answer Hazcats recoil question is simple. Heavy recoil to some is not heavy recoil to others. Light recoil to a seasoned big bore shooter may be intolerable to someone who does not shoot much. The little 92 does get a bit snappy but it doesnt kill on both ends. Shoot more talk less. Hard Cast