An interesting .30-30 cartridge used back in the 1930's - 1940's by trappers in the north country.

From John Witzel's collection

http://www.armorypub.com/Witzel/3030/Pet_4__85_Sn_RN_FMJ_ss.jpg

Legend has it that these special .30-30 cartridges were loaded by the PETERS Cartridge Company for the Hudson Bay Trading Co. located in the Yukon and possibly the T. Eaton Company in Alberta, Canada.

It was loaded with a full patch 85 gr. bullet used in the .30 Mauser pistol cartridge. One trapper, recounting his adventures of long ago, said that he had used the .30-30 cartridges with the little nickel jacketed bullet and found that they were great for dispatching Wolverines and Wolves in traps and for shooting wolves on the ice in the winter and beavers in the spring.

The question then was what velocity did PETERS load this cartridge to? John had one example of this cartridge in his collection and donated the powder charge from it to me for testing purposes.

Several years ago Hornady made a run of 86 Gr. full patched .30 Mauser bullets for The Old Western Scrounger. I purchased a box to run some tests. I loaded one of these bullets over the powder charge that John had sent to me and it clocked just over 2,000 f.p.s.

I then loaded 10 rounds using the Hornady 86 gr. bullet with 27.0 grs. of 3031, which appeared to be the same type powder. (The powder sample could well have been DuPont 17 1/2 the predicessor to 3031.) When tested, they produced pretty much the same velocity.

Accuracy at 50 yards was very good with groups of around 3/4" if I did my part. Further testing indicated that 170 gr bullets loaded over 30/3031 impacted within 1 1/2" of the 86 gr. bullet.

Hunters / trappers could use both cartridges without having to change their sights. PETERS knew what they were doing when they offered a .30-30 catridge with a bullet that was ½ the weight of the standard 170 gr. and loaded it to the same velocity.....60+ years ago.

from "The Venerable .30-30....100+ Years Of History" to be published by Sept. 2006.

John

good read John- I am still using my .30-30. Does what you say it does. :)

I agree, that is a most excellent and informative read. I particularly like(am amazed at) the fact that they engineered the 85 grain load so that it would have the same POI as the standard hunting load.

Anyone know if any of the manufacturers currently produce anything similar for the 30-30 ? I'd love to have a few boxes of light weight rounds to plink and play with, and not have to worry about changing my POA from the rounds I use for hunting. I'm not a reloader, so I only use factory stuff.....


Ken

Both the Hudson's Bay Company and the T. Eaton Company operated over much more of Canada than the writer states. Hudon's Bay had trading posts from coast to coast everywhere above the treeline. Eaton's was the largest retailer and catalogue company in Canada then, and completely blanketed the country.

Hudson's Bay sold 12 gauge (and other gauges?) shells with their own headstamp. I had to turn down a pair at $85.00 a piece. :(

Bye
Jack

It was pretty common before WW2, and even before WW1 (approximately) for ammo makers to make "gallery loads" or "small game loads" for cartridges normally thought of as deer/big game cartridges.
A search of some old ammo catalogs, or collector websites should turn up quite a few different light bullet loads for cartridges like the 30-30,32 Special, 30-06, 303 Savage, etc

Mr. Kort,

"....from "The Venerable .30-30....100+ Years Of History" to be published by Sept. 2006."

...and where would one be able to acquire said book...$$..?

Lobo in West Virginia

It was pretty common before WW2, and even before WW1 (approximately) for ammo makers to make "gallery loads" or "small game loads" for cartridges normally thought of as deer/big game cartridges.
A search of some old ammo catalogs, or collector websites should turn up quite a few different light bullet loads for cartridges like the 30-30,32 Special, 30-06, 303 Savage, etc
I like it, This load sounds like a natural for a contender carbine used as a utility/truck gun. DW

I suspect that one element in the success of such a load is the fact that it was (probably) used only in rifles and carbines equipped with factory-issue open sights. That would enhance the similar POI::POA between full- and reduced-power loads. It might be a little trickier to do with a scope mounted 1.5" or more above the bore.

The other factor is that the full-power load was engineered for 100 yd. zero and the reduced-power load was intended for use at a shorter range (25-50 yds.?).

It would make a nice project to develop such a load for my scoped Marlin with either the Luger bullets or the 110 gr. items available for 30-30. I could have a squirrel gun and deer gun all in one package. ;-)

Don Zutz was a big proponent of light loads for things like popping grouse while big game hunting. In his book "Handloading for Hunters" he published reduced loads for the .30-30 and several other cartridges.

For the .30-30, he got good results with a 170 gr. cast bullet and 8 to 10.6 gr. Unique, yielding 1200 - 1600 fps. You had to point the muzzle up with such a light load, but he was a tree branch shooter so he was OK with that. If you might want to do some ground swatting, you could just top off the case with Puff-Lon filler under the bullet.

What he did was sight in his big game rifle with the big game load of choice, and then dink with the reduced loads until he found one that put the bullet where he wanted it. It worked for him; one of the pix in his book is of him with a scoped 7x57 in one hand and a grouse in the other.

Btw I've also seen reproductions of a 1904 Savage Catalog with .303 Savage ammo loaded with smaller caliber bullet in what appeared to be a sabot. Nothing new under the sun, right?

A generation before that, men shot small game with a .38-55 case full of BP and a .375 pistol ball thumb-pressed in. That would probably work now, with a .30-30 case full of FFFg and a .310 RB, but cleaning the rifle would be a chore.

I load 110g RN bullets with IMR4759, and have the same point of impact at 50 yards as my 150g hunting load has at 100 yards.

griz 106, KClarke,
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it. History is interesting. Regarding reduced factory loads for the .30-30, the few that I am aware of are "Cowboy" cartridges (170 gr. lead @ 1,300 f.p.s. or so) available from PMC
http://www.pmcammo.com/cowboy-ballistics.php
In addition, I read that Remington has announced a "Managed Recoil" .30-30 cartridge that features a 125 gr. bullet at 2,100 f.p.s. It's not on their website yet.

Tumbleweeds,
I believe that what you saw in the Old Savage catalog was a paper patched bulleted cartridge which was one of the loadings available for the .303 at that time.

Jack M,
THank you for the additonal info. Could the Yukon and Alberta have been the locations for the corporate offices perhaps?

El Lobo,
I'll PM you when it is available. Thank you for your interest.

Thank you to everyone else for the additional information that you shared.

John

Winnipeg, Manitoba was the headquarters of the Hudson's Bay Company. Toronto, Ontario was the headquarter's of the T. Eaton Company. The cartridges may have only been sold in Alberta and the Yukon, but both companies had Canada wide operations at that time. Eaton's was a huge company, comparable to Sears in the USA, before the younger generation partied it away.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaton's

Bye
Jack

John,

I'd like to know as soon as your book is out too.

I'm going to try some of my 30-197 grain PBs on Wednesday. I've got them loaded with about 19 to 20 grains of N120, AA2015 and something else in that range (perhaps 4198 or AA2200). Faster powders proved unusable at 1600 fps... too much pressure on the base, I think.

Regards,
MC

[John.
Would you have the overall length of this cartridge handy?
We must load the bulk 110 grain JSP and FMJ bullets from Remington well out to facilitate their working through the action in the Winchester Model 94. The Marlin feeds them pretty well at any reasonable length.
With the 110-grain Remington JRN bullets loaded ahead of 27.0 grains of Hodgdon 4198 (2,178 fps) we could use a six o’clock hold at fifty yards. This allowed the 170-grain Sierra bullet loaded with 30.0 grains of IMR 3031 to be sighted to hit under the front sight at 100 yards in the Winchester Model 94AE. This made for a good combination but we never completely satisfied with feeding the 110-grain Remington bullet through the action.

Tumbleweeds, Don Zutz certainly is one of my favorite writers. His interests were very similar to Francis Sell with regard to hunting rifles and Shotguns. It will be awhile before a modern writer replaces Wallace Labisky, Francis Sell and Don Zutz when writing about shotguns and loads (both Ross Seyfried and Layne Simpson have the talent and interest). I have his book Handloading for Hunters setting on my desk now, I am reading his thoughts on cartridge case sizing, pressure and the .250 Savage cartridge.

It will interesting to see if the Remington name will increase the availability of the light bullet cartridge for the .30-30. The federal 125-grain load is not readily available out here, although it can be readily mail ordered.

Hi John - Are you publishing the book you referenced? If so, please reserve a (signed) copy for me - “Brad Davis”. Are you taking advance payments on orders?

This thread is an interesting read. I have used the Speer 110gr HP in my 30-30 with success. It can be loaded up to 3000 fps and much lower for recoil control, noise control and meat damage control, as you most likely know. Speer has a 90gr “Plinker” which is intriguing, although I have not used it myself.

Thanks - OldWolf (aka - Brad Davis)

Jack,
Thank you for the additional information and link. Interesting. Too bad they folded in 1999.

William,
The o.a.l. is 2.41". Reloads at that length feed ok through my Winchesters. Hmmmm.

MC & Brad,
Thank you for your interest. I will happily reserve copies and sign them (blush). When the Journal is ready, hopefully by September or sooner if I get on the ball, I'll let you know. I'm not sure what the printing costs will be yet, so I have'nt been able to set a price.

Brad,
Nice work with the 110gr. load (I think 3,000 f.p.s. would be exceeding Saami MAP for the .30-30 though.) I like the Sierra 110 H.P. to replicate the original Winchester Super Speed .30-30 cartridge (1925) with that bullet weight. catalogued velocity was 2,720 f.p.s.

Sincerely,
JOhn

Brad,
Nice work with the 110gr. load (I think 3,000 f.p.s. would be exceeding Saami MAP for the .30-30 though.) I like the Sierra 110 H.P. to replicate the original Winchester Super Speed .30-30 cartridge (1925) with that bullet weight. catalogued velocity was 2,720 f.p.s.

Sincerely,
JOhn

John,
Now it is my turn to blush. I've never attempted to take the 110 Speer Varminter to the maximum velocities. I was thinking about Paco when I wrote that.

30-30 VARMINT LOADS..
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030varmint.htm

John:
The Hudson's Bay Company has the company's books archived in Winnipeg, right back to 1670. They're a treasure trove for historians. I'll sniff around and see if there's anything on that load there.

Brad:
Paco's ballistics on that 100 grain load seem to defy gravity.

Bye
Jack

William,

I load Hornady 110gr RNs to 2.490". Haven't had one feeding failure in several hundred rounds. That's in two top ejects 1 pre '64 and 1 post.

I crimp these rounds with a Lee FCD. Don't know if that makes any difference because I haven't tried them without.

Brad,

Thank you for the link. I remember reading it sometime in the distant past. Wow! 3,000 f.p.s. with a 100 gr. bullet in a 20" barrel. It could certainly be possible, but I'll stick with the normal loadings.

Jack,
That would be great if you could find some reference info to this cartridge in the Hudson Bay archives. What an interesting piece of history those archives would be!

Thank you,
John

Love this thread! Between this thread, Hornady's new ammo, XS sight systems scout scope mount, and just general lust for a new gun I have been motivated to pick up a "project gun - ( an old Glenfield in 30-30 with a shiny bore and enough external wear to make it my "tramping" gun in the Adirondacks of NY. The idea of a small game round gives me the potential for a truly universal woods gun. So!...my question........ is there ever a problem with the 110 grain rounds getting "condensed" from recoil in the magazine without a cannelure on them? I am also looking at the Speer 100 plinking round - 100 grains. Does anybody use filler? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

The Speer 110 Gr HP (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=336780)does have a crimping groove.

http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=336780

They appear to make an accurate loading although I have not experimented with them too much. The only load I have played with was in the 2600 fps range and I noticed they heat the barrel up pretty darn fast.

I am not sure what the minimum velocity is with these bullets. If you go too low the copper jacket can seperate from the bullet and remain in the barrel. Be careful.

I have been using these bullets for years as plinking loads, in the 30-30 and 308-30/06. They have minimal reciol and do get the velocities up there!!!!!

i'll post my favorite recipies in a bit, as there's 5 eleven year old girls in the basement family room right now, seems they are planning a "sleepover" and I'd rather face a grizzly than go down there now. :D

Tmbrwlkr,
I have used the 110 gr. r.n. .30 Carbine bullets in the .30-30 with no problems even though it does not have a cannelure. As long as your sizing die will produce a tight enough neck, you should have no problems.

You could also use a Lee Factory Crimping die and it will push the crimp right into the bullet even though the bullet is not grooved..

The 110 gr. speer that Old Wolf mentioned is a good bullet as well.

The minimum vellocity I have pushed both of these bullets to is 1,200 f.p.s. (6.5 grs. 231) to duplicate .32-20 ballistics.

John

My reduced load for the 30-30 is a 125-grain FNHP (Sierra, I think.... :rolleyes: ) over 9 grains of Unique. VERY mild shooter, still lots of noise, but the POI is the same as my standard 150 grain loads. Well, maybe an inch away. Close enough for me. I started loading them when my son complained about the recoil, the hard plastic buttplate was mashing him pretty good. Next month I'm putting a Limbsaver on it for him, and loading 500 rounds of 150-grain stuff. By the time he gets done shooting that, I think he'll be used to it!

Papajohn