I've been using the Lee powder measure that came with my orginal single stage aniversery kit and would like to upgrade to something a little more accurate for use with Unique and Trail Boss powder. The max load for Uniuqe I'm using rite now is 7 grains, and 5.5 grains of Trail Boss. I wieght every charge, but would like to eliminate the constant "take a couple grains out with a Lee dipper, trickle a few flakes in thing" Wieghting every charge is no problem, but continualy fooling with it to get within .1 grain is time consuming. One reason I like black powder better! :D

Thanks,

I've been using my hunting partners RCBS electronic powder dispenser and scale for about six months now and it's the most accurate powder measure I've ever used. It is on the other hand kind of slow. I believe that it is made by Pact for RCBS and I see there advertising that the newest model is much faster than the one I'm useing. They are pricy though.

I can't claim it's the best cause I haven't used all the others but my Lyman 55 suits me just fine. We used my father's ancient one for many years and I replaced it with a new one not long ago because my brother got all our old shared equipment.

It does a good job measuring light loads of pistol powder or large loads of rifle powder. It can be cranky with big extruded powder.

IMO, weighing every charge is a waste of time and nothing I have read about the electronic scales/dispensors makes me want to own one.

I'm not sure there is a powder dispenser that can handle the flake powders with accuracy. It will be hard to find a dispenser that can handle Unique. I've got a couple of powders of the powder that was given to me and I'm too cheap to get rid of it so I just live with it. Once it is gone I will switch my pistols to some that works. It would be a whole lot cheaper to change the powder you are using than buy an electronic dispenser. You might look at the FAQ's concerning the various dispensers. Here is Lee's...

"Lastly some powders do not meter well, Unique powder is one example that meters with "casual uniformity".

Thanks, sounds like my measure is doing just fine then, it's the powder. I know a flake type powder is troublesome, but I like the way unique shoots, dirt and all.

My plinker load fro the 44 mag is 5.5 grains of Bullseye. I made a scoop out of a piece of 45 ACP brass and soldered a handle on it. It's ALWAYS within .10 grain. I made one for the father-in-law for his Unique load for his .357 too.

RJ

Now ya talkin. I use the Lee dippers for a rough charge and weigh each one for my hunting stuff. I use the powder measure some for blasting ammo. Just be sure to use a loading block and look at all the charged cases before you start seating bullets. You can tell if there is a dangerous difference just by comparing.

In the early '70's I purchased an OHAUS Model 7200 DU-O-MEASURE with a Single Drum for Pistol and Rifle excellent with ball & flake powders but with extruded powders it cuts some.I bought another on ebay this year.This is the most accurate powder measure I've owned.It's mounted on my Dillon RL550B and with some extruded powders I weigh each charge for finite accuracy in my Sako 06 and 300wm.

… I made a scoop out of a piece of 45 ACP brass and soldered a handle on it…Think of Jeff Foxworthy's voice as you read, "Now, you might just be a cheapskate if you're too cheap to even buy Lee scoops!" :D

.

Think of Jeff Foxworthy's voice as you read, "Now, you might just be a cheapskate if you're too cheap to even buy Lee scoops!" :D.

Now that is a good line! :cool:

On Rocky Raab's recommendation, I've bought a Quick Measure (http://quick-measure.com/). The design is unable to cut stick grains, though you can feel it hesitate slightly as it nudges one aside from time to time. Per specification it stays within 0.2 grains with even the larger sticks. With a small modification I got mine to throw small sticks (Benchmark) to within 0.01 grains on my lab scale for about a half dozen throws in a row, before one punked out at a tenth of a grain off, then went back to dead on the previous mean for three more throws. So the the potential is pretty awsome. If I can get time tomorrow, I'll put some Unique in it and see how it handles that flakey powder? Then I'll post back.

Thanks guys, I'll look into them. I use a progressive press so looking down the case is a little difficult at times. One reason I like Trail boss for 45 colt plinking loads. Anouther reason I like to wieght each charge. And if there's the least dought just cycle the press and see if I already put powder in.

I mainly want to speed up the weighting process, I go from measure to scale, fiddle with the scale some, then rack the leaver on the press, dump powder, load scale again, finish the presses cycle and check my wieght. Put a bullet in the charged case and fress brass in the die plate and start all over again. It goes pretty quik. The thing slowing me down is the measure sometimes throws dead on, sometimes way low or high. The low I can trickle up too, the high has to be scoped out.

I don't know which progressive you have, but the QuickMeasure is operated by vertical stroke of the measuring tube off the powder funnel (no handle) and has a Dillon adapter available.

The Belding and Mull powder measure handles Unique and other flake (and ball) powders extremely accurately. .1 is no problem. It uses a small drop tube not a drum. Powder is dispensed into a secondary chamber before going into the drop tube, so no matter how much is in the hopper it always drops the same amount into the drop tube. I've got an electronic dispenser also and the B and M is so much faster and just as accurate. B and M is still in business and you can also buy them from Buffalo Arms, I think.

The B&M looks interesting, but dang it's 200$+! I'm trying to save money here! :p I've got a Lyman black powder measure made of cast iron, it was sold as a smokless, I may give it a try. It's got a brass sleve for the hollow and a thumper to settle powder. I think it will shear grains, but with the consistant "thump" may through accuratly. I'll see how it does, I may be able to find a B&M on ebay.

Thanks for the suggestions.

BTW, I've got a Lee three position progressive, think it's the Lee 1000. I don't like the idea of putting the powder measure on it, and I use a good many cast and very greasy bullets so I don't use the optional bullet feeder, and on 45 colt I stop on the down stroke and clean the primmer pocket befor continuing. I don't on other rounds, but the 45 colt in blackpowder is my rifle match round, hunting, what ever.

will52100,
You can find B&M's on Ebay but I think they still bring $70-$100. I think they have been made since the 30's so there are quite a few of them around. My Step Great Grandfather was Nathan Mull of the original B & M so I ended up with a bunch of old B&M stuff through the family, but I like the powder measure the best. They are awesome for throwing flake powder - it's what they do best.

My old Lyman 55 powder measure will cut grains too. It works well with all types of powders if you stay below 60 grains. I mat inveat in the baffle kit for it if they'll fit.It works especially well with ball and the short grain poders like H335 and Benchmark. I can throw 50 rounds of 24,7 grains of Benchmark for the .222 and weigh 10 at random and none of them vary enough to matter. It really doesn't care for 7828 tho, so I use the scoop and dribble method like Chief Rid for it.

gmd3006, I'm not cheap, just creative :D I do have quite a few Lee scoops that came with various sets of Lee dies.

RJ

Soon as I finish up the batch of 44 colt, using my lyman 55 for that with black powder, I'll give unique a try in it.

May be a dumb question, but what's the negatives of sheared grains? Or in my case split flakes?

I tried four measures on Unique with the following resulting extreme spread:

RCBS Uniflow, +/- 0.42 grains. (Lots of jamming up and cutting of grains at the edge of the drum).

Dillon Progressive Measure (sliding bar type), +/- 0.25 grains.

Johnson's Quick Measure, +/- 0.11 grains

Lee Perfect as issued, +/- 0.31 grains

Lee Perfect modified with secondary baffle, plus tapping the measure twice with the powder tube rotated tip-down to accept powder, +/- 0.12 grains.

The experience says never use a drum measure. Where small flakes (like Bullseye or Red Dot) do OK in the Dillon measure, the big flakes are bridging. In the Lee they are also bridging, though the tapping (flicking my finger against the hopper twice) seems to break the bridge and let the powder fall. The addition of an extra baffle was useful. The Quick Measure was most accurate without modification or tapping. It is, however, the slowest to use for small charges becase a special funnels with a ball tip must be inserted and removed for each charge. It takes 1.5 to 2 times as long to get each charge as the Lee requires when pausing to tap it. However, it is still much faster than weighing each charge.

I will post a separate thread called on how to make your own powder baffle called "Are You Baffled?". I will come back and edit this to include a link when it is up.

Two more measures with a 1999 lot of Unique. A 10 year old Lyman 55, orange body, with the top and middle slides even at 4 1/4 on the front scale, bottom slide closed, 20 dumps. Minimum, 2 @ 6.0 grains. Maximum, 4 @ 6.3 grains. The knocker was not used.

An old Ohaus Duo-O-Measure, small cavity, out umpteen turns, 20 dumps. Minimum, 5 @ 6.3 grains, 9 @ 6.5 grains.

Neither had any problems with bridging with their large drop tubes. Lyman I.D = .290", Ohaus I.D = .280". Both had slight binding due to powder grains getting between the drum and body, but it was minor compared to the binding with W296 on the Lyman. I haven't had W296 in the Ohaus, but I suspect it wouldn't be any better, and likely worse. Powder cutting force was negligible with the Lyman, minor with the Ohaus.

A dozen or so charges where thrown with each measure while adjusting them. I've found that dumping a dozen or twenty charges into a dish before I start filling cases settles the power and really improves uniformity. IMR PB is an exception as it's bang on from the start.

The PACT DPPS scale was acting up, due to power fluctuations. Electric heating and 14°F below. A second powder pan sure is handy for re-weighing charges. I shut down the computer and plugged the scale's power supply into the UPS. Better scale behavior, although it needed re-taring a couple of times. This run with the Ohaus had the same results, 6.3 - 6.5 grains. This weight of Unique is close to max with a 200 grain bullet in a .45 ACP.

I had similar results with these measures with a 4.0 grain charge of 700-X. There isn't any real difference between them with large charges of 3031 (36 grains) and 4350 (56 grains), Both can vary by 3-4 grains.

Bye
Jack

i guess i can't see the problem with the lee perfect powder measure.. i've used it exclusively for bullseye just as the instructions said with the measure and my sd is always right around 25+ - fps so my reloads are about half the sd of factory loads...........

I've been using the same powder measure since the early 1970's when I purchased an OHAUS MODEL 7200 DU-O-MEASURE single drum for rifle and pistol as I remember it was approx $43 when all others were $20 .I use it on my Dillon RL550B for 38spec,357,41,45acp,45lc,454casull,sw 460 mag,243,30-06,300wm & 45-70.Accurate with ball & flake powders but will cut extruded grains which I finitely weigh for accuracy.I bought another OHAUS DU-O-MEASURE on ebay this year.

. . . what's the negatives of sheared grains? Or in my case split flakes?

In and of themselves, nothing. They just have a tendency to jar the measure which alters the powder packing in the hopper. Often then next throw after such a jamb is off on the high side, but it isn't consistent. Good practice is to throw a couple that you return to the hopper after you feel a significant cut or jam. In the case of flakes it can also mean a bridge was at the top and the jammed throw itself may be light. Check on a scale.

Thanks guys, that helps.

Will

Will, I don't think you are getting anything from charging handgun loads to .1 gr. of Unique. In fact, I doubt you can see any difference on a target, shooting from a rest, with a variation of three times that, .3 gr more or less from your intended charge!

I've been in this business for some 40 years and have never even heard of, much less used a measure that drop charges with an accuracy of .01 grain. Nor any reloading scale that could measure to one hundredth of a grain! No BR rifle on earth would know the difference if we could get such accuracy with our powder charges!

It's often mentioned that BR shooters don't weight their charges, they just drop them from a measure and shoot. That's true. BUT they don't use coarse or flake powders and they don't use common measures either. Their measures typically cost $200 and up.

For most of us the Redding measures are as close to perfect as we can get, the Hornady measures are close copies. If you get one buy the optional pistol drum for small charges.

It's not the .1 grain that bothers me, but the .4-1.5 grains that bothers me. It does make a differance when your charge is only 6 or 7 grains.

If I could throw charges to .1-.2 I'd be happy.

. . . I've been in this business for some 40 years and have never even heard of, much less used a measure that drop charges with an accuracy of .01 grain. Nor any reloading scale that could measure to one hundredth of a grain! . . .

Not sure who you think is trying to get .01 grain accuracy from a measure? Ain't gonna happen. As to a powder scale with 0.01 grain resolution, this is the one I have from Sinclair (http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi). That level of accuracy is silly for reloads, but useful for evaluating other scales, watching moisture content on a sample change with humidity, etc. After I had indications on a balance beam scale that a couple of electronic scales I had were drifting several tenths, I decided to acquire something I could compare them too that wouldn't have its least significant digit count error equal to 0.1 grains of significance. The comfort is largely psychological, since a set of check weights will provide much the same information, but this is much faster than fiddling with those frequently.

I think Ranger meant .1, or a tenth of a grain. Like I said, if I could get consistantly within a couple tenths I would be happy. Trouble is I get up to a grain and a half off, sometimes more. Most times the charge is under, sometimes a little over. From what I'm hearing it sounds like flake powder is just hard to meter. The biggest issue is that without wieghting and fiddling with every charge I get "pop, pop, pop, pof" more often than not. That and the weopons I'm shooting them in are 1860's repo's. Not exactly as strong as a barrit.

I think Ranger meant .1, or a tenth of a grain. Like I said, if I could get consistantly within a couple tenths I would be happy. Trouble is I get up to a grain and a half off, sometimes more. Most times the charge is under, sometimes a little over. From what I'm hearing it sounds like flake powder is just hard to meter. . .

Something is amiss with your Lee Perfect powder measure. As you saw from my report, I didn't begin to see the error with it that you did. It has a patented wiper that makes it the only drum design I know doesn't let you jam up as easily on flakes and cut grains as the steel drum units do, though I have two of these measures and have to say one works better at this than the other. You might not have a good one? Try my method of tapping the hopper twice with your fingernail when the drum is rotated up to accept powder. Also, check that the hopper is twisted fully into the powder drop position. The hopper twists clockwise (looking down) for removal without spilling. You want to be sure yours is rotated fully counterclockwise looking down (same direction as you would unscrew a normal right-hand thread). Also, add a secondary baffle to the hopper to further regulate the powder column height. I’ll try to get the templates and instructions posted today.

I inferred that what Ranger noticed was my reported measurements to a resolution of 0.01 grains. Since he was unaware of a powder scale that displayed that resolution, I suspect he thought I had measured in grams or made some other basic error. For that reason I wanted to link him to the scale I have that provides a reading with the extra decimal place. It isn't the norm for powder scales and isn't necessary for accurate loads, however, 0.1 grains of charge difference can affect accuracy in some guns. Some less expensive electronic scales will have least significant digit (LSD) display error. This means an actual charge of XX.50 grains may be displayed as XX.4 or XX.5 or XX.6 grains on these scales. The mechanical balance beam scales I've used (RCBS, Lee, and O'Haus) would settle ±0.05 grains, depending on whether the pan last bobbed on the up or downswing before settling. Nonetheless, you could eyeball between graduations and hold the reading error down to a range of XX.45 to XX.55. Effectively twice the precision the least expensive early digitals.

Modern electronics can reduce LSD error by reading finer and averaging and rounding up, and by other schemes. I assume this is working its way into inexpensive scales now, as electronics keep giving us more for less, but I don't know which ones, other than the CED Pocket Scale has such a digit stabilizing scheme. The Acculab scale I linked to measures 0.0001 grams (.00154... grains) 100 times, averages the result, converts to grains and rounds up for display, but it is seeing the extra digit that really eliminates the possibility of LSD error in the 0.1g grain range.

Unclenick, I was refering to your earllier post (#11) but did accept your statement about .01 gr. accuracy. Just didn't understand how that could be measured without some REALLY EXPENSIVE scale! Now I understand that was indeed the case, but I wasn't questioning your truth, per se, jusst puzzled. And we agree that degree of accuracy won't happen with a measure.

You are perhaps right again that some guns will shoot differently with charge changes as small as .1 gr. but not any of mine! (Or I'm not good enough to see it if true!) But my BR friends tell me that ambient temperature has a larger effect on groups than tiny variations in charges. That's why they don't bother to weight charges but drop them from a high quality measure.

I failed to understand that Will was getting variations as large as 1.5 gr. or more. I though he meant variations of plus or minus .1 gr. and felt that little could be ignored. Variations of 1.5 gr. is indeed far to much change with small charges of fast pistol powders for safety.

I do the thumping thing, and it helps. I'll get pretty consistant wieghts for four or maybe five throws, then one way off. Must be shearing flakes or bridging. I tested my Lyman 550 and it wasn't anymore accurate. I guess I'll just have to live with it for now. The iritating thing is it throws 3f black powder with dead on accuracy

have you tried wiping the whole thing down with a fabric softener sheet? my loading room is in the warmest dryest room in my house and have had a little trouble with static and flake powder like bullseye... i simply wipe the powder measure down good with a softener sheet once in a while and that seemes to work to kill it..........

I haven't had a big problem with static, but it is winter and the fire place is probably drying the house out. I'll give the anti static wipes a try, thanks

It is bizzare that you get this in two measures. It knocks out my theory of the Lee hopper being misaligned. We know from your range experience that the undercharge is real, so it isn't your scale fooling you. After static, the only common element left is the powder itself. Makes me wonder if the powder got moisture in it or if it somehow became unusually hard packed during transport? Have you tried revolving the container of powder to mix the stuff up and loosen it?

How old is the powder? How does it smell? If it is at all acrid smelling it could be breaking down.

If the problem is moisture, I would pour it all into one of those tall plastic pasta storage jars with a rubber ring seal on the lid, and put a new pack of desiccant in with it. Preferably the color changing kind so you know when it turns from blue to pink that it absorbed its capacity and needs to be baked out or replaced. Let them sit together with the lid sealed for a couple of weeks or a month and see if the problem clears up?

This has been on going with several differant pound cans of Unique, HS6, and Trail Boss. Not sure the problem, may boil down to tecnique.

How are you setting your Lyman? I find that using the top and middle slides together give me the best uniformity with small charges. Using the top slide only didn't work as well, and using the bottom slide didn't work either. Try it with and without using the knocker. Go slow with the handle.

Quite a number of shotgunners recommend grounding the measure. I've thought of doing that myself, as it wouldn't take long to run a wire out thought the window to the very old tube radio ground rod.

Dumping a dozen or more charges into a dish before filling cases seems to align the powder flakes and even up the charges. I can't do this with the MECs, so I check weigh the first 5 charges. They're usually all over the place, except with IMR PB powder.

Bye
Jack

I played around with it and wound up using both top and bottom slides together to get the best results.

I'm beginning to think it's more a static issue than anything. I'll have to pick up some static wipes, or like you said run a ground wire and see how that works.

I'm done for now, got to head out for the rig in the morring, can't even get on this forum on the rig, get "Access denied, weopons"

Apreciate all the help,

Will

I finally got the baffle making post (http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=34885) up. One suggestion I ran into in a review at Midway's web site and stole for my post was to run a container of powdered graphite through your measure before using it (later should work, too). This lubricates it and should help cut down on static.