HA!! caught you. You linked into this thread thinking unkind things about me...talk about over doing it in the power department...

However, I am talking about 180 grain Nosler BTs at 2676 fps and 5-shot groups of 0.325 MOA on centers. In my REM 700 this feat takes 52 grains of AAs XMP 5744 and a REM 9&1/2 primer. I am stunned by this load, to say the least, because this round does NOT like reduced loads. I noted in early load development into a bullet trap that this powder gives very small shot to shot velocity variations over the 180 to 210 grain bullet range, and .308 recoil, but seeing it on paper is believing.

300 Win Mag and 300 WSM velocities are also easy to duplicate for 180 gr 338 bullets with this powder, with a definite reduction in recoil. H4895 gives fine 338 Win Mag performance with 250 gr Noslers.

With full power loads, the 5th Edition of the Nosler manual is dead on for all bullet weights, as I obtain their velocities within 1 grain of
their Max loads and rarely stray outside of 1.5 MOA. This includes over 3500 fps for the 180s, 3240 fps for the 225s and 2990 fps for the 250s.

I have also worked up a 300 gr Hawk load at 2716 fps using AA8700 (sectional density, .376).

So, its good bye to the 375 H&H for the 1 gun hunter of deer sized game and larger, as long as you are a handloader. If you have a 243 and a 338 RUM, you can hunt anything, anywhere on the planet, never be over-gunned, never be undergunned, and never fear.

My ethical question: is it fair to shoot the 5744 180 gr loads at the club in hunter class competition?

Guess it depends if your the sort that likes winning!;)

I used a 338 Win Mag for years for all kinds of deer, Sitka Blacktail, Whitetail and such. I felt appropriately gunned. Don't think anyone would accuse you of cheating. Most rifles are far more accurate than most folks can shoot them. Meaning, if you are using a hunter weight rifle in a hunter class cartridge (which you are), you still have to do your part (which it definitely sounds like you are).

Alyeska338, Loader

I just bought a new 338 Win Mag, and you know I'm not a handloader. It's the Model 70, Stainless, 26" barrel. What bullets did you have the best luck with? I bought the gun for using in Alaska every year. Was planning on going with the 250 grain bullet. Any suggestions? Someday I've got to start handloading. Maybe after Christmas.

Well Joel,
For factory loads, the two that I liked the best are the Winchester FailSafe 230's (I've had 4 338 Win Mags and all would shoot this factory load great) and the Federal Red Box (at least it used to be a red and white box, I don't know what their regular, read that not-premium, loading is) 225 grainers. I whacked a couple of moose and caribou with the feds and they performed flawlessly. The 230 grain FailSafe is my favorite bullet, all the way around. My handload pretty much duplicates Winchester's factory load and I haven't recovered one of those bullets yet from moose, caribou, sheep or deer. I haven't used one on a bear, so I can't tell you anything about that. I've had 3 Rugers and one Weatherby and all shot these two factory loads very well. The Rugers shot the Federal Premium 250 grain Nosler Partition okay, but the Weatherby didn't like it at all. I stuck with the Winchesters and will continue the FailSafe as long as they continue making them. For the 338, I really believe that that 230 grain FS is as good as it can possibly get.

Loader,
unless it's against the rules, it's fair! I don't hesistate to use my .340 Weatherby for deer hunting in open country. In fact, it's my first choice out of the 6mm Remington, 270 Weatherby, 280 Remington, 35 Whelen Imp. if I'm hunting in open country, especially if I happen to have an elk tag. I use the 210gr Barnes X-BT at a shade under 3200fps. It really doesn't seem to damage any more meat than a 30-06 with THAT bullet. I do have a muzzle brake on mine to keep my eyebrow safe when firing from the prone position, and it also makes load development much more pleasant to perform off the bench. I will say that the guys sitting on either side of you for a few positions may not care for it too much though! From what you're listing for velocities, the difference between the two would pretty much be a moot point, with a edge going to the Ultra Mag. Those 300gr loadings must give you your moneys worth when you touch them off! Now if I could only get my rifle to shoot like yours, I'd be in business. It'll shoot moa, but not much better, and that took a bit of tuning to make a reality. Weatherby's 1 1/2" gaurantee is a joke as far as I'm concerned. (I'm only basing that on the three I've worked with)

Thanks Alyeska,

I'll try some of those Fail Safes. The 250's drop pretty drastically, so I'll try the 230 grain bullets.

My Weatherby 300 Ultra Light only liked one bullet. 200 gr Swift A-Frames. It would shoot those right at 1" at 100 yards. Everything else hovered at about 1.5". I just didn't like the recoil of that particular rifle. It was too light. Kicked almost as hard as my 45-70 with Buffalo Bore loads.

I was at the range a couple of months ago and there was a guy shooting a 338 RUM. He had a muzzle brake on his. The range is covered where you shoot, when he would light that thing off, the concussion was just something else. I couldn't take it with hearing protection, so I left. His gun sure shot good though.

Joel B -

The .338 Win Mag is my favorite hunting cartridge for deer and heavier game in the US, bar none. For Alaska, you have chosen the best of all possible rounds.

My 338 RUM note is really just a way to vent my surprise over a good load. The situations in North America where the 338 RUM has any real advantage over the 338 Win are rare, and limited to very long shots at tough critters, which are problematic anyway. I am not a good enough shot in the field to take them.

If trajectory is a concern, you might try Hornady's Heavy Mag loadings for your 338 in 225 and 250 grain weights. I have chronographed these from my 338 Win in 24 inch bbl, and they are about 150 fps faster than other factory loads. The 225 grainer does 2930 fps, and the 250 right around 2800. This is over 4300 FPE in both cases.

Please do consider treating yourself to handloading for Xmas, as the 338 Win is a wonderful case to reload. In spite of its great power, it is not finicky about anything, and has the same expansion ratio as the 30-06. Bullets of equal sectional density are 20 percent heavier and 300 fps faster in the 338, but they use the same powders! All available bullets from 160 to 300 grains stabilize very well in the 338's 1 in 10 inch twist, and depth of seating is not a constraint on powder capacity.

The 338 Win does all of this without a big increase in recoil, with no loss in accuracy, in the same length action as the '06, so there is not much more to say about the 338's virtures for big game.

Start off with a Lee hand press kit ($26 from Midway) and a Lee 3 die set ($22 from Midway) and a pound of H4350 from your local dealer ($20).
Work up your first loads with Hornady 200 and 250 grain bullets - they are inexpensive and accurate. You can start with the Lee dipper for measurements to get the idea, but go to a good powder scale before you get serious about full-power loads ($35 from Midway).

When you are happy, go to premium bullets, add Reloader 19 to your inventory, and never look back. I promise that you will have more confidence in your own loads than any factory ammo you can buy, and will have a life-long hobby that pays for itself.

A few years back two of my Virginia friends went on a low budget Elk hunt in Colorado, and I sent along my Ruger 77 in 338 Win and 2 boxes of handloads. On days when they were in and out of cover, one of them had a 300 gr Hawk load in the chamber as a brush buster. He got a surprise 115 yard frontal shot at a massive bull. The bullet entered at the base of the throat, and exited the left rear ham, which was the first thing that hit the ground. He never moved.

They swapped guns and the other friend took a smaller bull at 325 yards with a 210 Nossler Partition. Again, an instant kill.

We knew that both loads shot within 2" of windage at 100 yards, and the first shooter just made the elevation correction in the sight picture. It was sighted for zero at 250 yars for the Nosler, and they never touched the scope aftr sighting in at 7000 feet.

Before you guys get all full of yourselves, I restored a WWII bazooka and I'm not really sure it is accurate. Minute-of-billboard, I'd say. But, I shot toward a 150lb whitetail at 600yds one day and hit the trees beside it. It left a little more damage than a 30-06. In fact all that was left were 4 smoking hooves.

These things really save a lot of time by eliminating trailing up and skinning and all of that. We really owe it to these animals to kill them quickly.

Charlie Z -

Why Charles, you hurt our feelings...we haven't discussed a single round in the cannon department yet, or burned more than 73 grains of powder. That's somewhere between a 30-06 and a 300 Win Mag. Would you choose one of those over the 338 Win if you lived in Alaska?

PS, my whitetail rifle is a .243 Encore single shot.

73 grs! That's about 20 rounds per can, no?

Your 30-06 loads for it are pretty interesting. Of course AK is a different story, and I would like a 338-06 or .35 Whelen some day to cover it.

The "one gun for everything" concept is, however, impossible. The only people that can figure out what covers all their needs already have 5-6 rifles and won't get rid of any. :p

Loader, I live on the edge of NYC's metro area and just about every yahoo thinks he can buy success by getting the latest big magnum. Most the rest of the country has hunters and buyers that are more experienced and knowledgeable and may have a need for the extra margin. They are aware of what they are doing.

But, it's not the same here. So, I've developed an irrational aversion to magnums (this situation is nothing new to this area and my dad started it).

Joel,

.338 is fine for deer. Shot one hog with a (cheap) Rem 225gr. factory load. Works great! Don't know that I would trust the cheap ammo if big mean critters were on the agenda, but one of the nice things about that caliber is that pretty much all of the bullets are suitable for the velocity levels. Not like .30 cal where you have bullets from .30-30 levels up to .300 Weatherby, et al, and have to choose wisely.

Do avoid any flat-nosed .338 bullets. I think that the only company that still makes them is Hornady, they have both a flat nosed and spitzer 200gr. bullet. The flat nosed bullets are for the old .33 Winchester.

I have had some very good range results with the 210gr. Barnes X and also some 200 gr. Ballistic tips, but no critters yet. The X will surely perform, the BT will be interesting on tougher stuff like hogs, am anxious to see if it will hold together.

Charlie Z -

I hear you, and actually agree. My work with big cases stems from a fascination with and a background in internal and terminal ballistics research. Its application to hunting is VERY limited, but i sometimes jump into a hunting forum and start sounding like a Mag Nut. Really i am a Lab Nerd.

So, I get the RUMs (300, 338 and 375)and the WSMs (270 and 300) and take 'em out in the barn and try to invent loads. Great fun if you are a Nerd, and a lot less expensive than fast cars, boats and motorcycles.

One of my favorite fixations is trying to make big cases accurate and reliable with substantially reduced loads. Imagine my nerdy excitement when I found that AAs XMP 5744 was designed from the ground up to do just that. From an theoretical internal ballictics prespective, it does things that are not possible, and i get the feeling from talking to the AA lab folks that even they don't believe how well it works. Essentially it has NO burn rate because it has no coating, low density for an extruded powder, and lots of nitroglygerin. AA actually publishes loads for XMP 5744 for everything from the 357 Mag to 458 Win, including rounds as overbore as the 300 RUM.

So, it ignites very easily and does not need a lot of chamber pressure to sustain a predictable burn. With 5744, an experienced handloader can craft 308 velocities from any 300 Magnum and improve accuracy while obtaining recoil levels that are LESS than the 308. Headspacing off the shoulder is very important to accuracy when you do this, but lead and freebore are not.

So, taming the 338 RUM makes me happy, and at least implies that someday we may actually have several rifle chamberings that come very close to being "one gun for everything". The last piece of that puzzle is the application of emerging sabot technology to the XMP 5744, Short Mag and (Hornady)Light Mag technologies. There is no technical reason why a 300 WSM case, necked up to .375 and mated with a 1 in 10 inch twist bbl can't cover the 243 Win to 375 RUM range of ballistics and shoot fractions of MOA.

If the BATF lets it happen, this will change hunting and target shooting forever. The entity that takes the risk, makes the investment and gets there first will take the market, or I'm not a very good nerd.

Uh, I see, your one of them smart guys aren't ya!;)

If I was smart, I'd be rich and that ain't happened in 57 years...

Loader, Alyeska, Joel and all the rest;

Having no .338 but seriously considering one, [win 70 lefty...$650.00] What would you equate the recoil to?

I am a big fan of the .308 win; shoot up to 180gr.
I own and shoot 30-06 to 200 grain.
Shoot the 444 in Winnie's Timber carbine in 17" length [ouch!!}
Have owned 45-70's in the handi rifle and a Sharps.

As a comparison that I can equate to, which of these is close?

How bad could it be?

Thanks in advance...
Chris~

Chris,
I haven't shot a 338 M70, so I'm not sure how it handles the recoil. The Ruger stock design in both the No.1 and the M77 handles the recoil very easily. The rifles are usually about a half pound heavier than the '06 and to ME, feel about the same. If you plan on shooting 30 or 40 full horsepower rounds at a time, I'm sure you notice a difference. Like anything else, you can load to your comfort level, but I don't think factory loads will be noticeably different than the '06 loading you mentioned and will probably be less than the triple 4. Make sure the rifle fits you, in both balance and length. Nothing contributes to felt recoil in the medium magnums more than the rifle not fitting you properly.

The Weatherby I had was a synthetic stocked Mark V. It wore a classic styled stock (no monte carlo) but did have a cheek piece. I sold it to someone that had been shooting a 30/06 for everything up here. He shot it and declared it no worse than the '06.

I must admit, I bench shoot my rifles very little. I get them sighted in appropriately and figure out trajectories, then most of my practice is done on stumps and such from standing, sitting, kneeling and prone like I might experience while hunting. Yes, I shoot my 338's from the prone position and have never been scope cut. My practice includes "jump" shooting at clay pigeons at up to 50 yards all the way to about 200 yards and everything in between. In my practice I try to duplicate hunting scenerios. Water jugs, clay pigeons, pie pans things like that.

If your 338 is going to be a bench gun, I would opt for the heaviest rifle available, if it's a hunting rifle, go for the one that has the best feel and balance for you. Check out a No.1 (S model) if you are of average height and build. They fit me perfectly and have a great balance. My 338 No.1 S center of balance is on the front of the action, squarely between my hands.

Thanks,
This will be a hunting rifle. I beleive it's overkill for the NE.
I merely wanted it to out-perform the .308 or '06 in terms of "bigger" game, should I get the chance to get to the west.
I may still go with the 70 in '06; It is a true performer that's been around forever; and they are both the same price. Which ever I choose when the time comes will be topped with a Nikon scope.
Another I am considering is the Tikka, but this one would be in .308, my all time favorite, but somewhat mediocre cartridge.
In December I'll be getting a 38-55 from a fellow forum member, a Marlin. To be honest, I know nothing of the caliber, except it got a great write up a year ago when Marlin introduced it's 336cb in the old loading. I believe after reading some info on the cartridge that it would be enough for an elk or tough ol' mulie......
But I'm suddenly off topic, thanks for the Info on the 338.
Chris!

Well, on anything smaller than, say, elk, I'm not sure you would notice any difference between the 338 and a 30/06. Actually, I've shot quite a few deer with my 338 and have only dropped 1 on the spot. I've never recovered a bullet and the exit wound didn't appear that the bullet had expanded. I've had more dramatic results on deer with 270-7mm class cartridges than the 338. Of course, my 338 loads for deer have been those loads that I use for moose. I've carried the 338 on deer hunts when hunting where there are a lot of brown bears, so the loading reflects that. I suspect the 230 grain FailSafe might be constructed a little too strongly for full expansion on deer.

If you are interested in something in the medium magnum class, the 338 is a great cartridge. If I didn't live and hunt where the big bears roam, I doubt I'd be shooting one though. On game lesser than elk, I'm not sure it performs as good as a 30/06 class cartridge.

M141a -

If you are not a handloader, the 338 Win is a pretty big jump up from the '06. Comparing a factory '06 shooting 180 grain bullets with a 338 Win shooting 250s, you are looking at a 35% increase in recoil and more power than you can use on deer. However, if you handload, the 338 is very adaptable to faster powders and lighter bullets - a 338 180 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip will expand quickly and kill deer like lightning, even if you shave off 450 fps and load it to around 2700 fps. This duplicates the '06 power, but has 15% LESS recoil than the '06.

So, if you handload, get the 338. If you don't the '06 is a better choice with factory ammo in the NE.

Hi Chris,

Here's my thoughts on going from an '06 to a .338.

I shoot my '06 from the bench using a fairly light hold, and controlling the rear bag with my left hand. So the forend is free to jump up. This is tolerable for a few groups, not a big deal. Mostly my reloads are 165 and 180 gr.

When I go to the .338 I have to use my left hand on the forend of the rifle, or it just knocks the crap out of me. But if I get a good tight grip on the forend, then it doesn't feel any worse than the 06 held loosely.

So if the .308 or .30-06 don't beat you up too bad then I don't believe that you would have any trouble with a .338. You can also get a Rem 225gr. load which isn't as big of a step up as the 250s.

For my handloads in the .338 I use 200 and 210gr. bullets and those aren't bad at all.

Loader, 'splain something here.

Why is there less recoil with the same weight bullet exiting at the same velocity? I would think only chamber pressure (bigger case and bore) would be lesser with the 338-06 load?

If you are going to buy a .338/.340 in a hunting weight rifle, I would suggest a REMOVABLE muzzle break if you are going to handload for it or do extensive bench testing. My .340 has a injection molded synthestic stock and I would suggest you avoid this on any rifle of this power level at all cost. These stocks do NOT have the structural integrity requred for these rounds. A hand laid synthetic, laminated, or just plain old walnut will serve you many times more satisfactorily than the injection molded synthetics. It's not that they won't hold up, it's just that they are flimsy and nearly impossible to bed properly, which has a very adverse affect on consistency. My .340 requires me to use a muzzle brake off the bench, as I do not have the tolerance for load development without it. Shooting from field positions without the break is more pleasant than my .308 Savage Scout Rifle with 180 gr loads(big weight difference). The big thing with the muzzle break is the NOISE!! Plugs and good muffs! On a warm day, the stiff breeze it creates upon firing can be welcome though. I believe the .338/.340 are amoung the ultimate rifle rounds for Western hunting. I haven't had the ching to go to Alaska yet, but if it's bears I'm after, I'll be carrrying something with a shorter barrel with a bigger hole in it.

Chris,
I used to have a Ruger 77 in .338 Win. It was a full pound heavier than my 30-06, but recoil was still noticably stiffer when shooting from the bench, especially with 250gr bullets. It definitely kicked harder than my 444 Marlin too, with 265 gr bullets in a hot handload (pre-chrony, velocity unknown!). Having said that, the recoil was really not unmanagable if you use MikeG's bench technique. Just not fun.
Ultimately, I sold it to a police officer who was taking an African trip. It was just too heavy, cost more to shoot, and the .308 and 30-06 work well enough on elk to suit me.
BUT, I live in elk country! It only costs me $28.50 and some gasoline to put together an elk hunt, so I don't mind passing up some shots. If I were putting down a big chunk of change for a hunt, I might opt for a .338. I believe it does offer some advantages on angling shots. The advantage is in heavy, thick bullets and not velocity IMHO. I've said before it's the only magnum that I think it's worth stepping up to for bigger game. That's still true, at least in the country I hunt. Long range is a non-issue for these elk!
Just my opinions. You'll have to decide! It'll be fun either way. ID

Charlie Z -

The recoil in the 338 in the example I used is less than the '06, because it takes less powder to drive the 338 180 gr bullet 2700 fps than it does for the '06 to drive a .308 bullet of the same weight to the same velocity.

The powder contributes a lot to recoil, independent from the bullet weight and velocity, because it exits the muzzle as gas doing over 4700 fps! So, it takes 48 grs of XMP5744 and 56 grs of 4350 for the 338 and '06 to get 2725 fps or so from a 180 gr bullet, respectively.

The '06 load is near max and the 4350 gas is doing 4700 fps. The 338 load has lower gas pressure at the muzzle, and the XMP5744 gas is doing 3800 fps.

In an 8 pound rifle the '06 has 22.6 fp and the 338 has 18.0 fp. I have both rifles, and this really does work in terms of felt recoil as well.

So, one of the nice things about the 338 Win is that you can duplicate '06 performance and not pay a recoil penalty, but still cross into dangereous game territory when you need to. BUT, you must be a handloader.

Haven't replied for awhile to this post. My computer caught the Flu, and then it died! But anyway, I've been breaking in the barrel on my 338, real happy with it so far. The best groups came with 225 gr Federal Classic's. 7/8"s at 100 yards. Not bad for me. I don't consider myself much of a shot. I know this gun doesn't kick near as much as my Weatherby Ultra Light did in 300. That gun with 200 grain bullets, or H.E. loads from Federal was BRUTAL. It kicked hard and fast. This gun is like a big push. Certainly more than the 30-06, but not to bad. I had a new pad installed, the factory one was just hard rubber. Pretty happy so far.

Joel B -

Welcome to the majic world of the 338 Win Mag. Your recoil comparisons make sense. About 50-55% of the recoil energy in the 300 is due to gas released from the muzzle. This runs about 40-45% for the 338. The bullet accelerating down the bbl in both cases generates a push, moving the butt firmly into your shoulder, and then the powder gasses escape with a big snap (4700 fps!), which is what hurts. Of course, the recoil numbers on paper are quite similar, but in practice the 338 is much more comfortable to shoot.

Top loads in the 30-06 still generate about 50% of the recoil from gas release, and hence the 338 does not seem much heavier in the recoil department.

Your groups are great...there is really no difference between a 2 inch and a 0.25 inch group in the field, given the size of the game hunted with a 338.