I use the Hornady Lock N Load AP and am unable to get a tight enough crimp from the Hornady taper crimp die. The die is as far down as it will go in the press. I can turn the bullet in the case by hand after it has been crimped, and remove the bulletfrom the case. Could this be a bad die or are the Hornady TC dies not good in general for the 45acp? I do have the Lee FCD and have no problems with that,but the Hornady die works well with the ejection wire. Any ideas on this out there? Thanks in advance.

Is the bullet loose in the case before you crimp? If so, the taper crimp die won't fix it. The possible reasons are, too thin brass, sizer die not sizing enough, expander die too big or the bullets are too small. .45 ACP bullets should measure .451" or .452". I use a Hornady TC die and I had a few TZZ headstamp cases that were too thin for it. A good micrometer will sort this out for you.

Bye
Jack

I agree with Jack. Does not really sound like a TC die issue unless it is significantly defective some how. I do not believe the crimping of auto rounds really adds much to the bullet hold issue.

Sounds more like a sizing issue to me. I have bullet setback problems when using .45 auto CCI Blazer Brass cases and have to resort to using the Lee undersized sizing die, which barely fixes the issue.

Bill,

In your other thread I think you mentioned trimming your .45 ACP cases? Most .45 ACP cases actually shrink with each shot rather than growing, the way rifle cases do. This is the result of them not creating enough pressure to stick to the chamber walls on firing as higher power cases do. Because the web (case wall brass) doesn't stick to the chamber, the heads never get stretched back away from the rest of the case and the cases never develop thinned pressure rings near the head or suffer from casehead separation. Instead they just get pushed back against the breechface and expanded shorter and fatter to fill the chamber. Moreover, while case length is important for uniformity of the shorter roll crimps used in revolver loads, taper crimps work with a wider range of case lengths, making length less critical, though you don't want to get them too short. So, as long as your cases are .898" or shorter, don't trim them. With enough reloads they will eventually shorten themselves. I lose about half a thousandth in .45 case length per reloading cycle.

The other question is a variation of Jack's comment on TZZ brass: Are you using Remington brass? I stopped even picking up free Remington .45 ACP cases at the range years ago because the case mouths on that brass were so thin. They work hardened rapidly and start springing back out after sizing. In just two or three load cycles it got to where bullets just fell into the resized Remington brass. If you are loading Remington cases, try a couple Winchester or Starline or Top Brass or Federal or PMC cases you find at the range and see if that doesn't fix the crimp problem?

I Internet to discuss lever-action rifles and small game cartridges but I have a little experience with similar problems. My answer will not agree with many others.
First I suggest you look for articles by Alton S. Dinon Jr. Dinon built some very fine 1911’s for bullseye shooters and he spent a great deal of time discovering what ammunition shot well. Dinon found that for several reasons the roll crimp was superior to the taper crimp. My experience – limited though it may be – confirms his findings.
Look for a copy of “.45 ACP Handload Accuracy which was reprinted in the NRA’s Cast Bullet Handbook. This picture will give you an idea of what to try.

I think those are illustrated in the NRA Handloading book, too, but as photos. I'll have to double-check? I used that crimp when I first started loading the .45 ACP. My old Lyman seater die has a roll crimp profile.

The accuracy improvement from the roll crimp seems to be due to increased bullet pull and start pressure. In the 70's and 80's it was common knowledge among competitive bullseye shooters that the government's jacketed match ammo was more accurate than equivalent commercial match ammo. They figured out it was the pitch sealant the government has put on the bullets that made the difference. It increased the bullet pull enough to improve ignition consistency and, with that, the barrel time consistency.

You can't glue lubricated lead bullets into a case, but you can add that roll crimp. I found that headspacing off the bullet did the same thing for me, accuracy wise. It cut my groups almost 40% off bags. I can't recall trying both in combination, though? It would make for a good experiment. The drawback to the roll crimp is brass life, of course. The the necks split after a bit when you use it, while the taper crimped brass seems to go on forever with light softball loads.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/6163/45seatingpossibilitiesxnp3.jpg

The article you are thinking of is by M. D. Waite and has a similar picture but of the three bullet seating steps – No crimp, roll crimp and taper crimp.
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My problem with taper crimp dies and cast bullets is the taper crimp die sizes the bullet down and depending on the thickness of the brass case the bullets may be of a different diameter from round to round after seating. I use bullets softer than 14 bhn and frequently quite soft for handgun target handloads and the soft bullets are affected by the taper crimp die. My most accurate target loads are those using the roll crimp.
We “younger” shooters have forgotten or not learned many of the accuracy “secrets” known to our fathers because we are unable to find the articles written by them. A little research goes a very long way.
The NRA Handloading book and the NRA Cast Bullet book both have E. H. Harrison’s classic article on loading accurate .38 Special ammunition. If you want to know the secrets of loading accurate wadcutter ammunition this is the article.

It's possible you're over-crimping. Too much crimp may cause the case to bulge a bit below the crimp and lose its grip on the bullet.

Sionaphrys,

That happens with the roll crimp, but the gradual slope of the taper crimp doesn't do it, that I've ever seen. If it did, it would be a sign the brass had hardened beyond usability. I've never found pistol brass valuable enough to try to anneal the case mouths, so I would toss it if it started to do that. I should add that with the softball load mentioned below, I've gotten up to 50 reloadings from W-W cases without seeing that phenomenon.

The Redding profile crimp die is designed to apply a roll crimp and prevent the brass below the crimp from swelling to release the bullet. The Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) design for handgun rounds has a carbide sizing ring that forces the case walls straight as you withdraw a crimped round. The Lee FCD for .45 ACP comes with a removable hardened steel ring that applies a taper crimp. I see no reason a roll crimping ring could not be dropped into its place? The carbide ring would see to it that the roll crimped bullet got sized down even more than a conventional taper crimp die does, so Slim could have the worst of both worlds, if he wanted to try it?


Slim,

Yes, lots of good stuff in the old articles. When the NRA decided to stop making reprints of old technical articles available over liability concerns, a great resource was lost. I was fortunate enough to get copies of their accurizing articles going back to just before 1950. Heaven forbid some gun crank might read those things and actually work on a gun for himself, accidentally installing the barrel and bullets backward and suffering tragic results!

If you haven't tried the bullet headspacing, you might want to. My records show that with the old soft Star 185 grain swaged SWC over 3.8 grains of Bullseye, 25 yd sandbag groups from my Goldcup were brought down from 2¼" to 1⅜" after going to bullet headspacing. Both loads would have had a taper crimp at the time.

When the common situation of headspacing off the extractor hook occurs, the cartridge is pushed by the firing pin to pivot on the hook, which tilts it in the chamber. Jacketed bullets seem largely to straighten themselves out from that tilt, but the soft lead bullets appear to just swage into the rifling at that tilted angle. Being fired slightly off the CG axis makes the groups open up.

The roll crimped .45 ACP that has the bullet sitting out far enough ahead of the crimp to center the round in the throat would mitigate the tilting. 0.020" can do it, though a barrel with an old fashioned hood weld-up job might need more. That bullet protrusion is probably essential with a roll crimp, since the casemouth is no longer available to headspace on. A roll crimped .45 ACP round is headspacing on the extractor hook unless the bullet protrudes far enough to stop on the throat before the firing pin pushes the case against the extractor. At that point it woudl be headspacing on the bullet, even if the bullet is a little shorter than the way I illustrated.

Som now how do we know whether it is the roll crimp or the fact the roll crimp lets the bullet get into the throat and maybe headspace on the bullet that improves accuracy? I know intentionally headspacing on the bullet does it, but as I said, I've never combined a roll crimp with headspacing on the bullet to see if I get still more accuracy? I moved to taper crimps before I had a gun accurized well enough to tell? I almost hope it doen't help, since that would make me start roll crimping all my .45 ACP and I would no longer be getting 50 loads out of a case. But now I've got to try.

Darn it, Slim, you may have cost me some brass. ;)

Nick,
I enjoy visiting with you.

“The Redding profile crimp die is designed to apply a roll crimp and prevent the brass below the crimp from swelling to release the bullet.”

The Redding is probably the best of the stand alone crimp dies, smooth on the inside and uniform in its crimping action – worth every nickel.

“The carbide ring would see to it that the roll crimped bullet got sized down even more than a conventional taper crimp die does, so Slim could have the worst of both worlds, if he wanted to try it?”

I could shoot shotgun patterns! As you pointed out below a 2 ¼” group at 50 yards from the bench is unacceptable accuracy a bullseye handgun. When we stand up and shoot one handed we introduce many additional variables. Any handgun that will just barely shoot a possible from the bench will require a great deal of luck to keeps its bullets in the ten ring.

“Yes, lots of good stuff in the old articles. When the NRA decided to stop making reprints of old technical articles available over liability concerns, a great resource was lost. “

Is that why the NRA quit reprinting articles? The two cast bullet handbooks are invaluable to the home hobbyist. There are many more possibilities for handbooks on various subjects and the NRA would be far better served raising money in this manner than sending out “emergency alerts.”

“25 yd sandbag groups from my Goldcup were brought down from 2¼" to 1?" after going to bullet headspacing.”

It is amazing how some small adjustments to a handload will significantly reduce group size. We need every advantage we can find. 3” groups at 50 yards are fine for field use but will frustrate a bullseye shooter.

“When the common situation of headspacing off the extractor hook occurs, the cartridge is pushed by the firing pin to pivot on the hook, which tilts it in the chamber. Jacketed bullets seem largely to straighten themselves out from that tilt, but the soft lead bullets appear to just swage into the rifling at that tilted angle. Being fired slightly off the CG axis makes the groups open up. “

A source of immense frustration until understood well stated.

“The roll crimped .45 ACP that has the bullet sitting out far enough ahead of the crimp to center the round in the throat would mitigate the tilting.”

This one step will relieve a great deal of frustration and allow us to begin separating our errors from those of the gun and ammunition. If you barrel has a match chamber you need to pull it and use it as your headspace gage. Until you have a few dimensions worked out you will end up pulling some bullets. Patience is the key. We could devote many threads to loading accurate ammunition for semi-automatics.

“That bullet protrusion is probably essential with a roll crimp, since the casemouth is no longer available to headspace on. A roll crimped .45 ACP round is headspacing on the extractor hook unless the bullet protrudes far enough to stop on the throat before the firing pin pushes the case against the extractor.”

I Agree. You can “prove” it by shooting the same ammunition in a semi-automatic and a TC barrel.
“So now how do we know whether it is the roll crimp or the fact the roll crimp lets the bullet get into the throat and maybe headspace on the bullet that improves accuracy?”

Your making my head hurt….

“I almost hope it doesn’t help, since that would make me start roll crimping all my .45 ACP and I would no longer be getting 50 loads out of a case. But now I've got to try.”
“Darn it, Slim, you may have cost me some brass.”

Glad to help… A friend of mine has a mauser rifle which started off as a .45ACP and is now a .45 Win Mag. This was an interesting ammo tester. There is simply not enough time in our lives to explore all of the different ideas which pop into our heads. These boards are very interesting for answering questions. There is someone somewhere who has already tried what you are thinking of. A well moderated board such as this one is certainly a gold mine of information.

Slim,

I also enjoy our on-line encounters. We need to keep meeting like this.

I wish the NRA would make money off the good technical stuff, too. I'm afraid one drawback of the rapid expansion of the practical shooting game has been that minute-of-steel-plate at seven yards has become the mainstream accuracy standard for handguns. I always choke on my own tongue when I see one of those articles featuring a sandbagged group from a full-size handgun that is about three inches at 21 feet, and the author calls it "good accuracy." I'd hate to have to make the Gunsite Fun House hostage rescue head shot with a tool like that.

We old Gun Cranks are becoming less common. The fact there are a number of such on this forum is what drew me to it originally. I had been (and still occasionally drop in) on the Firing Line, but that place both has more ill-tempered persons and fewer technically astute persons than here. Or maybe it is just that they get a higher volume of uninteresting questions?

No .45 ACP Mauser at this end, but I did pay $150 for the outfit that does TC's custom shop work to cut me 15" Encore straight cylinder heavy barrel in .45 ACP. I wanted to strain gauge it to be my pressure test barrel for my 300 grain boattail cast bullet (my avatar) as well as for accuracy testing. I undercut a Weaver sight base to make room for the gauge,and so far, so good. I ran a pile of military hardball with different headstamps through it first, and got readings right up in the 19 KPSI range, validating the setup despite the thickness of the steel around the chamber. (I was afraid I'd have to thin it out over the chamber for adequate resolution, but it wasn't necessary). The only bobble was horizontal stringing of the first few groups. I finally noticed I'd got so excited about going out to try the thing, I'd missed tightening the rear scope ring. Duh!

The swaged 185 gr. Star bullet load I described in the prior post was my 50 ft. indoor load for a number of years. I like to use the example of that swagged bullet to illustrate headspacing effect because the difference in accuracy was so dramatic. It was marginal for the X ring at 25 yards, and never up to the 50 yard targets. I moved to the more accurate cast H&G 68 profile for 25 and 50 yards, using the same charge at 25 yards and upping the load to 4.0 grains of Bullseye for 50 yards. I now have a 6-cavity mold for the 200 grain Lee Tumble Lube SWC. It's nose is a little closer to the profile of the original H&G 68 than a lot of the commercial cast equivalents, and it shoots very well. So, by the way, does the Lee 230 grain TC.

The Goldcup I later used to work up the Star bullet loads was my learning gun for accuracy work. I'd spent a lot of time, with periodic tips and help and critiquing from Russ Carniak, getting the Goldcup beat into shape. It was Old School accurizing, with weld build-up on my barrel hood and link lugs, filed and scraped to final shape using Prussian blue. The original collet bushing was dumped for a peened and scraped soft bushing, though I later put in a left-hand twist Bar-Sto barrel and a Briley bushing, to see if the former would help my shooter's elbow, and the latter just because I like gizmos. The elbow was made worse, if anything, so I kept the bushing and got a right hand Bar-Sto. I'm not sure why? The original Goldcup barrel, despite being half a thousandth out of round, shot like a house on fire. I still have my first sandbag group fired from that gun using an early Aimpoint sight on one of those scope mounts that replaces the left grip panel. The load was 4.2 grains of Bullseye under the 200 grain Hornady JSWC. I hadn't yet adjusted the sight settings. At 25 yards it was five rounds in just under 3/8" C-T-C, based on bullet marks at the hole edges. It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking modern is always better, but I learned never to laugh at old methods.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7277/bulletgroupcroppedon5.jpg

I need to get back to the .307 thread. I've got a working theory to explain some of the disparities and phenomena observed. I want to pass it by you.

Later!

Nick, I joined the Firing Line in May 2004, my last activity was in July 2006, four posts. I had forgotten about the forum and just took a look around. There is something wrong with the forum titles or the layout of the forum for me. I cannot explain it but the Firing Line does not hold my interest.
I must admit though I am a bit frustrated with the new format of this forum and the cut and paste from word issues. This issue is particularly frustrating when on the road and some of the slow dial up access available in hotel rooms.
We have two .45 ACP TC barrels and a .45 Colt barrel. These were used for ammo testing and have seen quite a bit of use. The .45 Colt is now my wife’s favorite TC handgun barrel.
Do you remember an article from the February 1979 issue of the American Rifleman – The Load Bench – by C. E. Harris titled: “Are Heavier .45 ACP Bullets Practical?” The 300-grain loads tested reached 13,300 Cup and the 250-grain loads went as high 15,000 CUP.
Ed Harris has cost me a fair amount of money over the years. His articles are interesting and I feel the need to charge down whatever path he has shown a light on. I need to write him a fan letter.
This week I happened to be looking at an old article from the American Rifleman with tips on welding up 1911 barrel hoods and other accurizing ideas.
Somewhere I have a serious article on boattail cast bullets. This inspired my father and me to invest in a high quality pencil sharpener and we have cut a boattail on quite a number of different cast bullets. Our best results were with the heavier – for the caliber – bullets.
A fellow can be grateful he was not shooting loads costing more than a $1.00 each when he makes a set up error. I have a friend with a .416 Rigby. I am interested in loading for the rifle but avoid him at the range…
I need to shoot the loads I for the thread. The wind and fire danger has kept me busy with other things.

Slim,

The Ed Harris article sounds familiar, so I'm guessing I've may have seen it long ago. This go around I got the idea brought back to mind by an article in Handloader that a friend pointed me to. This was around March or April of 2006, IIRC. The author got some 300 grain boattails and did some loading and penetration tests. He found the bullet, which was a sort of half-jacketed round nose, would penetrate his test media about 40% further than 230 grain hardball. I figured a flat meplat version would maybe penetrate about on par with hardball, but make a more impressive hole. You do have to run it up at +P pressures, though, to break the 700 fps barrier. Not quite 5 grains of Power Pistol seems to do it pretty well, but the load has to be weighed to avoid a pressure jump. The round, at about 740 fps, has less kinetic energy but more momentum than hardball when you do. Rottweil P803 is what QuickLOAD thinks would do best, but I don't have any lying around.

Great info on this forum guys!!!

I also have a quick question. I also use the Hornady L-N-L taper crimp die to make
45 ACP 200gr. SWC and FP. What is the max crimp in inches do you guys suggest for the best accuracy. I know too much crimp will actually cause a dip in over-all accuracy.

With cast or swaged bullets you need just enough crimp to dig a little crimp groove into the bullet to prevent it being pushed back into the case, which causes excessive pressure. Unlike a revolver, there really is no tendency to pull a bullet in an auto-loader; just to push it in. You can usually push a lubricated lead bullet into a case with your thumb if there is no crimp.

The other trick would be to go by SAAMI specs. The maximum OD at the casemouth (jacketed bullet seated, no crimp) is 0.473". The minimum is 0.465". You can crimp until you get that minimum. However, it is only really important if your cases are actually headspacing on the casemouth. If you seat the bullet out until dropping it into the barrel brings the casehead just flush with the back end of the barrel, you will be headspacing on the bullet and the casemouth diameter will be moot from a function standpoint. Overdoing the crimp can distort the bullet, but if you headspace on it, that doesn't seem to matter too much.

The situation you need to avoid is one where a cartridge is headspacing on the casemouth, but you crimp so tightly the casemouth slips inside the throat. That can be very dangerous because then the casemouth tries to expand into the throat, and it can't open up enough to let go of the bullet. Pressures can go high enough to blow out the case and do damage, including sending brass particles back through the gaps in the slide and frame and into your face.

Most throats open to 0.453" - 0.454". As long as your casemouths are three or four thousandths bigger than that, you are unlikely to be able to jam them in. So the real lower limit would be about 0.458" at the mouth with most 1911 barrels I've seen. Nonetheless, YMMV, so I would advise not going narrower than the SAAMI minimum of 0.465".

unclenick Is The Man!