I might should oughta post this in the reloading section, but it is a lever action, so we'll try it here. Got a Puma on the way in .454 and I have a few questions, and this seems like the best place for them.

1. Who makes the best .454 brass and where can I acquire it at the best price?? Heard some arguments that Starline is better that WW, but I do not know.

2. Lil' Gun, H110, W296 are all common powders listed for this cartridge out of a handgun, but which powder would be most efficient out of a 20" barrel?

3. Obviously the rifle will push a bullet faster than a pistol with all other things being =. Anyone got a couple of cast bullets that come to mind that will be able to handle the increase in velocity when hitting those up close and personal shots? I do not want to load down, because I want to try to keep the trajectory as flat as possible if a longer shot presents itself.

4. Recommendations on dies? Heard good things about Lee's ability to put a good crimp on. Anyone hazard a guess as to the ability of a tubular mag as opposed to a revolver's cylinder to stop a bullet from jumping the crimp??

Thanks, LIV

LIV-

The issue of which brass is better had to do with which brand would last longer. I remember last spring that members who had just bought the .454 Puma L/A when they first came out advising that they had bought Winchester .454 factory loads to shoot up for brass. I believe that they got 2 or 3 loadings out of the Winchester brass before they started getting case/head separations. Those who had bought Starline brass reported no such problems getting more loadings out of that brass. At that time I believe that the Starline .454 brass was also less expensive that the Winchester .454 brass.

As for the cast bullets available, I dont think that anything BTB makes would fail you close up. They offer weights from 255 grn up to 405 grn with gas checks; and I can't imagine their alloy not being able to withstand the force of an up close shot on tough game with the .454 carbines higher velocities.

I'll leave the powder selection to those who are better experienced than I.

As for dies, I think that the Lee Factory Crimp die is a must when loading for any Lever Action rifle. Less worries about bullets jumping crimp than of bullets being pushed back into the case under recoil and creating higher pressures.

Hope this helps,

The powders for the 454 Casull, I used H110/WW296 worked very well for power and accuracy, plenty of recoil to boot;) grain for grain both are almost equal till you get to the max loads, The lil Gun powder, I did not yet get to use, but loader gave me the lowdown on Lil Gun,LilGun has lower pressures equal to the higher pressure H110/WW296...better ignition&burns really clean, the ball powders have a coat on them to control the burnrate a different science. I will have to try some Lil gun out, I did not have a problem with H110/WW296 at all, after shooting 50 rounds of 300gr max loads I can feel my shoulder getting sore LOL time to rest my old bones. kicks like a 300 SWM.

The brass, Win brass worked well, resizes easer and easy to work with than Starline, hornady brass seemed to be on the softside when getting up into the max loads, over expanding in cylinders causing drag on extraction,didn't like that.

The bullets I tested with where Hornadys 300gr XTP's they shot very well , Speers golddots .451 shot as well, what a ashtray, Note:make sure when ordering you ask for the 45 either 451/452 mag for a 454, not the 45LC non canalure these are for lower pressures and fps same dia;)
Shot a few boxes of 45LC's bye winchester, felt like a cap gun compared to the heavy recoling 454's

The Rossi Puma 454 Casull accuracy using open sights where great. One inch groups at 50 yards standing, a great shooter...smooth action.

Good luck on your new Puma, Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Lotsa good info, Thanks, Any recommended loads. I understand the cautions about starting lower and working up etc. Any idea on what you are getting for velocity out of the 20" barrel?? Thanks again LIV

Using a 300gr bullets, your FPS at max loads are around 2080fps close to what my 450 marlin shooting a 350 gr interlock at 2100fps not bad;)
using a 260gr around 2260fps...
both of the bullets where on top of either H110/WW296.
Chrono at mussel.
loader is doing some loads with the Puma, maybe after he is done testing some of his loads he can give you the lowdown, loader is good person to get your info from. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Rmouleart
Now thats the kind of performance I'm looking for"450 Marlin"!!:D That 450 is touted as a great griz killer on many boards. I can't wait to get mine -should be here tomorrow?:)
I've run the numbers on a ballistic program and in a rifle the 454 looks to be a real thumper. Got to love those 45 cal guns.:D I already have a 45LC Win 94 but which is no slouch either. But to have both a 454 SRH and 20" tube lever gun that's a combo that can't miss!!!:cool:

Gun Nut, Do you have a Rossi 454 coming, or a .450 Marlin. Either way, you are right, Gotta love those 45 calibers. AS far as I am concerned the 45-70, 454, and 450 Marlin are all good. Big bullets at around 2000 fps gotta hurt at the other end. LIV

Gunnut45/454 you going to love your 450 Marlin, a great shooter, and like you said a good Big bear rifle. i found H4198 at 50 gr under that 350gr interlock gets as close as you can to the factory load when reloading, I also use CCI Mag Primers as well, 2180 fps. gunnut heads up if you mount a scope, drift that baby forward or else;) Standing not bad at all, but benched with hot loads, the 450 will rock your world for sure, good luck to your new Marlin. next week I am taking my 450 Guidegun/454 Casull German boar hunting, can't wait :) Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Sorry the way I wrote my first response sounds like I'm get a 450- I'm getting a 454 Rossi it 's in I just have to go pick it up!!:D I wish my fingers would type the way I think.:rolleyes:
I figure this will pound anything I might run into in the ID mountains with enough authority -besides it matches up real nice with the 454 SRH!:cool:

I also owned a Rossi Puma, this is a good sound rifle, and very light also;) and packs a wallop, eating 10 rounds as well.
now you only have to carry one type of ammo, good deal. good backup LOL.You thought my big daddy was bad, Come meet my little baby maria. Good combo and good shooting. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Wow, Rick, thanks for the plug...!

I am working with the 454 "Rossi" which is now a Legacy. Got it from Rick, and its very nice...smooth and very, very strong.

The only traditional load I have worked up is 35.5 grs of Lil Gun and the 260 grain Freedom Arms 454 Casull bullet. This gives 2265 fps, +- 20 fps and 2965 FPE.

The 300 FAs are next, and I'll pass that along as well.

I do have some nifty sabot loads using the Knight 45/40 cal sabots using Longshot, but I don't want to pass these on til I work a bit more with them. They don't cycle well, and are a single shot proposition. For the record, the 180 gr cast lead 40s do 2600 fps at low pressures and very low recoil. Takes a lot less Longshot to do the job, and velocity is quite consistent if you don't crimp them.

Note that this rifle has a 1 in 30 twist, so anything over an inch long may not stabilize well. It should handle 360 gr Cast Performance LGs OK, and 1800 fps should not be hard to get.

Loader
Hey youand I going to be talking alot- So do you also have a 454 in pistola? If you do what length barrel? I'm real interested in what kind of increase in velocity you see between the rifle vs. pistol. The 260 gr is list at 1786 (Pistol)at that charge wt you use to get 2200. So is a 500 fps jump the average? I haven't shot mine yet maybe tomorrow. I have good data from my pistol and want to cut alot of testing off the rifle by selecting a good starting piont with the pistol data as powder charge. So no pressure signs at Max load?

I will have Hornady, Winchester and some FA brass to fool with. One thing I've noticed right off my 300 WFNs have to be loaded to no more than 1.650 OAL or they will not feed!! So I think my Max load will be a little less then expected-shooting for 2000 FPS. :D
I would love to try Lil'Gun but no stocks it around here! Should be just the ticket for the Rossi.

Yes, in going from a 7.5 inch bbl in a revolver to a 20 inch bbl in the Puma, +500 fps is a good average for a 260 gr bullet with burn rates in the 296, 110 and Lil Gun class. As bullet weight goes up, you will likely get less than +500 fps, because case capacity is reduced by the longer bullet and the extra expansion ratio of the 20 inch bbl may not make as much difference. For example, I get 1400 fps in the 454 revolver with the 360 LGC, but would not expect to get 1900 fps in the Puma because the charge weight is smaller and more of the powder is burned in the revolver.

Loader
Sounds good to me- a 260gr JSPat 2200 fps is a nice flat shooter in my book and should be excellant for deer and such. So you have had any problems at the top end as far as pressure signs? Like I said before I just got mine and haven't cap a round through it yet - planned to start at low end and work up -Of course- but I would like to start with my best pistol loads to get a good feel for what the "Puma" likes. My goal is to get my 300 gr WFN to around 2000 fps for the bigger stuff we have in ID. I'm already impressed with the lock-up on this gun -much tighter then my Win 94, but smooth. They have made the change on the sights as well -mine is seperate dove tailed in the barrel from the band on front. Granted the wood work is not top of the line the rifle looks nice.:D

We also need to get our data posted for these young guy's and older folk who might pick one up so they got a place to start- cause there is Zero data, other than for pistol's!! This is/will be a great caliber lever gun for the folks who want something just aliitle different then the rest. I'm going to try my best to fill my Bear/Cougar tag this spring with.:D

No signs of excessive pressure yet, even with max loads. The lateral expansion potential of the Puma chamber is far less than the revolver, and a sticky case should be rare. All wheel guns expand a lot at the chamber, due to the thin walls on the outside of the cylinder - they are designed for this, and its normal. It does make it easier to exceed the elasticity of a case, however. Case life in the Puma should be much longer. I use Starline brass.

I would love to find a .400 caliber cast bullet of 260 grs to try in the sabots.

Loader
The reason I ask if you saw any pressure signs is another guy I've chatted with on another board said he was seeing pressure signs at around 1gr to a 1 1/2grs below the Max pistol loads . And looking at my Puma and the Win 94 I have I don't see much if any difference in the metal-barrel construction. Although the 92's bolt lock-up looks to be a stronger design. Well like I said I'll start at the lite side and work -up anyway. If the weather co-operates this weekend. Had thirty-fourty MPH winds all day today. It make s it very hard to keep a chrono standing! Plus my new Win br*** should be here tomorrow:D Nothing like virgin Br***!!:)

Star line is very good br*** -they supply Buffalo Bore and I have br*** from a box of 45 LC I bought- tough stuff - I use it for my heavy 45 LC loads never had a problem yet-Some have 10-12 reloads on them!!!

Dang, we've at least got to teach the censor program that the word 'b r a s s' is OK!

In a rifle from a different manufacturer, it is quite possible that the chamber throats are shorter or tighter than the comparable revolver. With fast pistol powders, this drives up pressure in a hurry. Of course, one also has the cylinder gap bleeding off pressure in the wheelgun, while the rifle sends everything down the tube.

Loader
Agreed, and every rifle has a different Max load it will handle. So that's why we need to develope some info for inclussion hopefully into a loading manual for the general public so we can have some sort of standards for the rifles.
The 45 colt rifle info is the same way -no data except for cowboy loads. And I have worked up some very stout loads for mine.

Question , have you shot any Hornandy loads through your's- 300grs in particular- I have some of those 99 lot rounds and I really think those were loaded to hot at the factory- always stick in the chambers of my SRH and I'm kind of leary about shooting them through the Rossi.

MIKEG
Yep I think your mother program is set aliitle high when Brass gets edited out. How about grass!:D

Gunnut45/454 I shot those Hornady 300gr XTP's and they were as hot as a mother;) They also got stuck in my friends ruger 454 Casull, he could not self-extract them, had to bang them out with a rod;( In the Puma they did have a good drag, but I was only extracting one case, I can say in the Puma 454 they where very accurate, there may be some soft brass out there. I spoke to hornady and a rep said they may of had some soft brass, ask me for the stock no# and said he would get back to me, that was 4 months ago;) I noticed using WinchesterX's/Partition golds factory loads, No drag what so ever. Partition where 260gr and where hot also, but nothing like those Hornady's, wow good kick to boot. The winchester x's were the most moderate loads for factory loads and where accurate as well.
Ilike the ashtrays on the XTP's & GoldDots, man they look nasty. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Yea I got six of those rounds left, I really think Hornandy Goofed on that lot and got I little to much powder in them.but at the time I bought my SRH thatwas the only 454 around here and I needed brass to reload so I bought a box.
:rolleyes: Every time I shot those through the SRH they stuck-if the gun was even a little dirty they were very hard to get out!!:eek: But when I reloaded up to about a grain below Max they worked fine anymore then 31.5 Gr of H110/W296 they would get sticky. :confused:

I also got my new Win brass today- loaded ten rounds starting at 30 -30.5 gr W296 so we'll she if it aint rain tomorrow. :D I'll let you know what they Chrony at.

Loader
Finally got out to put some rounds through the 454 Rossi-WOW!! This thing is a thumper!!! You definately know you've capped a round!!!:D Rifle performed flawlessly- feed and ejection of cases with out a problem. :) Here's the Data form the Chrony.

454 Rossi 20” Barrel

300 gr WFNGC
Case: Hornandy
Powder: WW296
OAL:1.650
Chg Wt: 29.5
Av Vel: 1945FPS
ME: 2520 Ft Lbs

300gr WFNGC
Case: Winchester
Powder: WW296
OAL:1.650
Chg Wt: 30.0
Av Vel. 1980
ME: 2611 Ft Lbs

300gr WFNGC
Case: Winchester
Powder: WW296
OAL:1.650
Chg Wt: 30.5
Av Vel. 1998
ME: 2659 Ft Lbs

Note: I got very close to my goal of 2000 FPS- no pressure signs at all, cases all looked great!! I think I'll get where I want to be at 31 grs- at 30.5 two shots where over 2000 fps
Recoil was stout- definately needed that butt pad - this would be a bruiser if it had no pad. Acuuracy was good considering I had a twenty MPH wind!! All on paper at 50yds - 3" high 2 1/2 -3" group!:D

Very nice loads. You are right, its a thumper!

I still have not worked with the 300 grainers, but have been working up loads for my Blackhawk 45 LC that also work well in the Puma.

Most fun load turns out to be quite reduced: 7.5 grs Green Dot behind the 230 gr Hornady XTP. Does 850 fps from the blackhawk and 1080 from the puma.

In the rifle, there is very little report and the round is subsonic and verey accurate. A nice break from the big loads, and perfect for home defense.

The 7.5 grs in Green Dot was selected because it gave the right velocity and because it is exactly 1.0 CC in volume. Allows me to load with my Lee hand press and a 1 CC dipper in the field.

Loader
Well I went back out today and got the final test rounds through the Puma. I did get to my goal of 2000 FPS- but the accuracy of the load went south- opened up to about 6" at 50 so I've surpassed the max for the Cast 300 WFN!! I'll have to harden the alloy or stay below 2000 FPS! :( The sweet spot for these seems to be between 30-31gr of W296 as I didn't see an increase in velocity until I went to 31.3 grs were accuracy went south. So it looks like I'll have to wait untiil my order of 300 gr XTP-Mags gets here to persue this futher.:rolleyes:

I also shot some 250 XTP's throught it as well -Man what a devistating load!!! Though these are difinately not for hunting anything you want to eat- acted like a varmit bullet!
:eek:

Next I'm going to get some of Cast 255 gr loaded to see what kind of load I can work up with these. My SRH likes them as long as I don't shoot them to fast-leading, The Win 94 loves them and I can push them about 1800 FPS out of it. :D So I might be able to get 1900's before they lead up in the Puma. That would make an excellant deer/antelope round.:) Time will tell.

Oh just for general Info- I pulled one of the bullets out of that Lot 99, 300gr Hornandy's, and measured the charge-it came out to 30grs of what looks like H110? Now why these things shoot so hot I haven't a clue- Now I'll try an dupicate the load using H110 at 30 gr to see if this is the problem or that maybe this is highly refined power and not H110. I still think they over loaded these shells but I guess I'll find out with the test. Factory rated at 1650 FRS out of 7" barrel so if this is the load they should come out of my Puima at around 2200 FPS!

Gunnut45/454 sometimes these corps like Hornady may use a blend of powders, a big no no for us reloaders but under research and development these criteria's can be broken. This is why its hard to replacate some factory loads. I once asked a hornady rep if 50grs of H4198 using a 350gr Interlock with CCI mag loads in my Marlin 450 guidegun was the ticket, he stated your on the money, In this case they did not use a blend of powders, now mind you I got this load out of a April2002 guns&ammo, The speer load was 48max, I got a little more than 2100 fps,more like 2180, not bad, sometimes the climate plays in some also, when I shot those Hornadys 454 casulls for the first time, it was a blistering 85 in the shade. Shooting in colder climates lower the rate of burn decrease power. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Rmouleart
Yea I thought the weather was the problem as well when I first shot those-it was late summer here and still hot- but I also shot some in the late fall same year and it was in the low 40's and they still stuck in the SRH? Soft Brass Maybe -but like I said when I've reloaded these they worked fine granted they were not max loads either. I'll let you know how the test works out -most likely this weekend since I'll need to let my shoulder heal up some from the abuse of last weekend. At 25 ftlbs of recoil with that thin stock it gets abusive after a few rounds.

I am bringing this one over to the 92 forum since there was such good info in this thread and it was burried in the dungeon...

Scotty