Hi,

I hope nobody minds me asking this question!

What is the difference between RIFLE and CARBINE in general and espesially regarding the Browning 1886?

Thank you.

Fortunateman - "in general" the rifle/carbine determination regards the legth of the barrel. As far as I know (and that isn't a whole lot) the 22" barrel is a rifle barrel, the 20" a carbine. The in-between, I am not so sure about.

Any one else with the facts?

That's pretty much as I understand it too.

16"-18" = Trapper length
20" = Carbine length
24" = Rifle length

I'm sure there is a specific definition some where, but I've never seen much other than this.

Joe

It used to be alot of lever actions before the turn of the century were originally considered a "rifle " with a barrel length of 24 inches this was back when they were also available in a "musket" length of up to 30 or so inches. Carbines usually refer to anything 20 inches or shorter . Now a days the bulk of levers you will run into will have 20" barrels and a few will have 22". The term is also applied to almost every action type of long arm nowadays, be it bolt,pump ,auto etc.

Winchester confuses the issue with their 20" M1892 "Short Rifle".

It used to be alot of lever actions before the turn of the century were originally considered a "rifle " with a barrel length of 24 inches this was back when they were also available in a "musket" length of up to 30 or so inches. Carbines usually refer to anything 20 inches or shorter . Now a days the bulk of levers you will run into will have 20" barrels and a few will have 22". The term is also applied to almost every action type of long arm nowadays, be it bolt,pump ,auto etc.

A Carbine was created to cut back on the weight of standard guns and make them easier to shoot from say a horse. Or so I have been told.

To even confuse the matter further, Thompson Center tends to call their 21" to 23" barrels "carbine" barrels.

Standard Winchester models 1866,1873,1892 and 1894 carbines had barrel lengths of 20 inches. Models 1886 and 1895 carried 22 inch barrels.
:D

It was not the length of the weapon, but the overall conformation. The carbine was to be used by the cavalry and the weapon would be used from a horse. The cavalry designed features that would meet that need, such as a modified buttplate that had a shallow curve. The shorter barrel was a feature, but also a shorter forearm for lighter weight and better handling. Many carbines have also used a barrel band for attachment of the forearm. The terms are now not really useful, but have been used to designate a short, light rifle, with a barrel band and curved buttplate commonly.

dclark

Wow, what an amazing reaction!

Thank you all for this amount of infomation.

Hi folks,

I finally found information concerning especially the Browning 1886.

"Browning manufactured 7000 Limited Edition Grade I Rifles (26" octagon barrel), and 7000 Limited Edition Grade I Carbines (22" round barrel), all in the year 1986."

This may be late, but: the rifle, as Winchester built them (and Browning so capably copied) used a heavier weight barrel, "standard" was round in original issues, but octagon was most often ordered, and therefore most common. Standard rifle barrel length for the 1886 was 26", carbine 22". Rifles had as standard crescent buttplates, with other options available including a "shotgun butt" similar to what is comon on '94 carbines today. Carbines have a "modified shotgun butt" that has a shallow curve and a flat top to the comb. This type is generally called a "carbine butt" today. Rifles have a forend with a cap, and a ring dovetailed into the underside of the barrel to hold the magazine tube. Carbines have a band holding the forend and magazine tube.
The difference between "short rifle" vs carbine isn't a matter of barrel length only, it's the type of stocks etc. that determine "rifle" or "carbine" in Winchester's determination of name. Just about anything could be special ordered many years ago, hence we have many "short rifles" and other non-standard guns existing today. Carbines were considered the lighter weight guns, even compared to the "extra light" model rifles.
The "Winchester Book" by George Madis has a huge amount of information, with pictures, of all the old Winchester models. Your library may have or could get a copy.
I have 2 Browning 1886's, 1 ea. rifle and carbine. The finish and fit is better than the new Winchester model, and they use the standard half-cock safety like the originals.(no rebounding hammer or tang "safety" nonsense)
If you're going to buy a Browning, you won't be disapointed!
If you're going to carry it hunting, the carbine is much nicer, (shorter-lighter) if it's a fun gun, the rifle is very classy looking.
If you take the carbine hunting, take the useless saddle ring off and leave it in the box,(or throw it in the trash like I did) and fill the hole with a plug screw.(metric thread) Peep sights (#56 Lyman looks good on old rifles) make either easier to shoot well, and a sling sure is nice.

Hello malamute,

its not to late until (you guessed right) I got my own Browning 1886! It has to be a Browning because I'm one of these mad Browning fans.

Thanks for the profound info on 1886s!

Now I know what I'm looking for is a rifle with a "shotgun butt".

A special feature, I'm interested in is the "take down" option.

Do you know if any Browning 1886 came as a take-down rifle?


Greetings from Germany


10 minutes left and I am off for 6 days. Gonna go on a hunting trip for boars with my Browning 1895 in .45-70. These days the critters are that shy in germany, we have to sit and wait throughout the night. So I had to disfigure my Browning with a 3,5-10x50 illuminated reticle scope.....

Browning did NOT make any takedown 1886's, or any with shotgun butts. However, I've heard rumors that Winchester's newer takedown 1886's were converted to takedown by someone in the states. If that is true, it should be possible to have your gun made into a takedown by this outfit, or someone else that uses the original Winchester takedown system. (the original system had a way to compensate for wear over time, so they wouldn't get loose) It may also be possible to get the parts from Winchester to do the conversion work.

As for shotgun butts, I'm planning to put one from a new Winchester "extra-light rifle" on my Browning carbine, and possibly on the rifle. I've already cut the crescent profile from the butt of the rifle and installed a rubber pad. You probably need a solid pad, (the pachmayer decelerator is not solid) the cross section of the crescent rifle butt is narrow and may interfere with the corregations inside most pads. It makes the rifle MUCH more comfortable to shoot with any heavy loads (like 500 gr bullets at 1750fps and up)just getting rid of the crescent.

by George Madis

Among the Winchesters which are popular with collectors, "baby" carbines have probably gained more popularity than any other gun. These handy little guns were made in relatively low numbers, and many of them were exported.

"Trapper Model" is a description often heard for these special carbines, but Winchester never used this term. While this name has "caught on" with collectors, it is probable that more of these "shorties" were carried by Lawmen than by Trappers. If I were to "christen" these guns, I'd have called them "Lawmen Carbines". Winchester occasionally called these "Baby Carbines" and in the case of the Single Shot, called them "Ponies". "Special Short Carbines" was the term most often used by Winchester. Whatever we choose to call them, they are rare and desirable collectors Winchesters.

In order to be cleared by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (B.A.T.F.), the carbine must have an original Winchester short barrel. If the gun has an altered barrel, or if the barrel is not original to the receiver the gun will not be cleared. B.A.T.F. has never made a charge to remove a gun from the provisions of The National Firearms Act. Beware of fake letters and photocopies of B.A.T.F. letters. Some have been reported.

In a count of these Winchesters already cleared through the B.A.T.F., some interesting facts come to light: A total of 23 Model 1873 Babies have been cleared, and of these five had fourteen inch barrels; all of the nine Single Shots (Model 1885) had fifteen inch barrels; of a total of 215 Model 1892's two had twelve inch barrels; the rest had fourteen and fifteen inch barrels and the old Model 94 saw 159 carbines cleared. These counts are only approximate, since a few of these special carbines do not have notations as to barrel lengths. Of the small number of "Special Short Carbines" made, many were sent to other countries. Those who ordered these special guns probably intended to use them a great deal every day, in all weather and in any possible situation.

Because of their handy size, these babies often saw much abuse and the majority has seen neglect and abuse. In determining the originality of these Winchesters a close inspection should be made of the front sight. Original Winchester carbines usually had the sight base forged as part of the barrel; they are not soldered or otherwise attached. If there is any sign of solder or other means of attachment the gun can be suspected of alteration. Some new barrels in various lengths have been made. A close inspection of the barrel markings as well on the front sight should be made to detect these new barrels.

Many of these "Special Short Carbines" are historically important, and even the latest made are over seventy years old, since after 1933 Winchester discontinued sales of these rare guns.

While often we see carbines that have seen much use and abuse, unless someone has tinkered with them, they still operate well and many of them will still shoot. These rare Winchesters are a tribute to the people who designed them, made them and used them. Prices for these Winchesters are rapidly rising, and every Winchester collector would like to have at least one in his collection.

Remember, any carbine or rifle with a barrel less than sixteen inches long must be declared a curio or relic. If the gun is not "cleared" it is illegal. We should bear in mind that collectors and B.A.T.F. have the same goals; these are responsible gun ownership and use, and the gun should be original.

Prewar '94 Winchester Carbines
Top one is a 1927 Saddle Ring Carbine in 30WCF
Below is a 1931 Eastern Carbine in 30WCF
Must click on this one for some reason
http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Rifles/Lever_Actions/'27&'31.jpg

Top;
The short rifle is a 30WCF, 1955 receiver with a Canadian Centennial 20" octagon barrel cut down by Brian Cosby (http://www.cosbycustomguns.com/) to 16" with all commemorative markings removed.

Bottom;
The full sized Winchester is a standard 1894, 30WCF rifle made in 1911, with the extra cost Lyman No. 4 hunting front sight.
http://www.leverguns.com/outdoors/images/long_short2.jpg

Good info Dan.

I have a baby that I cut down to 16 1/2" barrel.(1964 Model 94) It's very handy, as anyone with one of the newer "trappers" can attest to. The balance is still excellent for carrying.

It is possible to "manufacture" a "short barrel rifle" of less than 16" barrel length. The guys that fool with autoloaders build them. You have to get your BATF approval beforehand, pay the class 3 tax, and then procede. It's the same as buying a full auto as far as the paperwork is concerned, but I believe it's only a $5 tax. Federally it can be done, some states may not allow "short barrel rifles" though.

The limitations mentioned by Madis may have to do with the "Amnesty" granted from time to time for older, existing shorter than 16" barrel guns that fall under the regulations, but are not registered yet.

My neighbor is building these on pre-64 actions that have never been papered. He bought something like 50 bare receiver from Winchester years ago. Considered a handgun buy the ATF. If we did it to an existing 94 that we owned, it would be a $200 transfer tax on them.
http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Rifles/Lever_Actions/Mare's LegII.jpg