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  #1  
Old 06-18-2006, 02:30 AM
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Suitable cals for water buffs?


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I guess this thread is really aimed at DaveH, the man who was trampled(or was it gored? ) because he couldn't keep his mouth shut until he shot the darn thing, at which point he found out his gun had failed!
I think it says a lot about him really.......
But to get to the point.
I've recently heard of people taking buffalo with .444 Marlin, specifically with hard cast 330gn and 350gn pills.
I know your preference for buffs is 45-70, Dave, but which cals do you think are up to the job?
And does anyone else have experience with this particular game animal to be able to comment on this question?
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  #2  
Old 06-18-2006, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kombi1976
I guess this thread is really aimed at DaveH, the man who was trampled(or was it gored? ) because he couldn't keep his mouth shut until he shot the darn thing, at which point he found out his gun had failed!
I think it says a lot about him really.......
But to get to the point.
I've recently heard of people taking buffalo with .444 Marlin, specifically with hard cast 330gn and 350gn pills.
I know your preference for buffs is 45-70, Dave, but which cals do you think are up to the job?
And does anyone else have experience with this particular game animal to be able to comment on this question?
45-70 using http://www.garrettcartridges.com should take down a water buff,they've taken down the big ones in Africa there's a writeup on the garrett site.
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  #3  
Old 06-21-2006, 11:42 PM
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I guess this thread is really aimed at DaveH, the man who was trampled(or was it gored? ) because he couldn't keep his mouth shut until he shot the darn thing, at which point he found out his gun had failed!
I think it says a lot about him really.......

To begin with I was very young & stupid when that happened ! (It was gored I have still the scars to remind me)
But seriously I would say that to be safe a 30-06 would be the lightest cal I would recomend ! The 8mm is well up to the task with a 200 grain bullet ! .338 will knock em for a "six" The 375 H&H is probarly the greatest 'Buff stuffer' ever built !
the 45-70 had the advantage of rapid fire & mag capasity ! On the other side of the coin the 303 Brit ws for many years the cal of choice of Pro shooters (Like myself ) simlpy cause it was what our Proccessers suplied us ammo for ! It was a great close range weapon .But had it's draw backs with ex mil ammo of dubious origians !
On the list of stupidity IMHO were such shooters as Fred hardy who's claim to fame was shooting a large Bull with a 44-40 (in a colt lightning Pump action ) From Horse back & Andrew Mc Gifford who shot a Cow with a 22-250 (12 shots & some tricky driving in his Land cruiser )

Dave
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  #4  
Old 06-22-2006, 01:56 AM
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So is a single shot 45-70 still a suitable piece of kit for buffs then?
Or was the cycling speed and mag capacity the real advantage?
I would've thought a warm 405gn FP load would pack a decent amount.
At 2000fps(the load recommended for Marlin lever guns) it has almost 3600 ftlbs at the muzzle and a Taylor KO value of 53.
Comparatively the 375 H&H packs 4163 ftlbs with a 300gn load at 2500fps but it only rates 40 on the Taylor KO scale.
Where the H&H holds power is over distance.
At 100yds it still has about 3500 ftlbs while the 45-70 drops to about 2500 ftlbs of energy.
But this has more to do with ballistics than actually power.
With the Woodleigh 400gn Protected Point(like a Mag Tip) which is designed for the 458 Win your BC goes up(from .205 to .360) and the energy and velocity are retained much better.
That said, there a guy in Western Oz who has a H&R Buffalo Target rifle that loads it with 500gn cast bullets for camel & buffs.
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  #5  
Old 06-23-2006, 03:52 AM
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i would think the 45-70 would have to be considered adequate , after all its one of the guns that led to the near extermination of the american buffalo and its got more grunt than the 30-30 and from what i've heard the blokes in the top end knocked off quite a few buffs with the 30-30 in years gone by. I also read somewhere that the 45-70 loaded with a 400gr proj of the right construction driven at 1300 fps will traverse a 2000 lb beast from stern to stem.
The real question here would have to be "can you put that one shot where it needs to go"? If not, that buff is likely to stick his horns where he thinks they need to go, and you wont like it when he does

Bob

Last edited by gundownunder; 06-23-2006 at 04:03 AM.
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  #6  
Old 06-23-2006, 08:09 AM
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I'd say the 45-70 rates a better mention than purely adequate.
That said, a 400gn RNFP FMJ would be excellent as it would allow the 45-70 to shoot with it's ideal maximum weight.
I realise that there were 500gn lead loads(45-70-500) but they were meant more for bison which aren't as tough as a water buff.
Furthermore, the lead alloys were pretty soft compared to the modern lead alloys we use.
Dave, what sort of lead loads do you use for your 45-70?
Do you just use wheel weights for lead as well as the old pills you dig out of the mounds at the pistol range?
Btw, kiddekop, I had a look at those Garrett Cartridges.
They are SAVAGE!
That said I think I'd be taking another rifle to knock down an elephant.
It is interesting that they load the Woodleigh 350gn JSP, a good Aussie bullet, and the Speer 500gn African Grand Slam tungsten solid which is arguably a 458 Win bullet.
What's the significance of the Ballard bbl recommended for Garrett's 540gn Hammerhead bullet?
Does it have a faster twist or deeper rifling?
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Last edited by kombi1976; 06-23-2006 at 08:41 AM.
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  #7  
Old 06-23-2006, 11:27 PM
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Both the 45-70 & the 375 H&H are one shot put money in the Bank stoppers! The advantage gong to the 45-70 where a rate of fire was important to me so far as, speed of kill ! I was able to take the second & third Buff in a group ut of the game & into the Bank before the rest would realise what was happening & put it into high gear & head out for safer pastures ! The 375 had the advantage of being a superb Plains rifle! One could "Snipe" at the Beasts at long range fro the cover of scrub & maybe take one or two & then wait until they settled again .

In my Buff shooting days I used a pure Lino type cast bullet of 405 gns with a load of 52gns of IMR3031. These days when I get the Old girl out for a run it's with either a 300gn cast of recovered range lead 0r a 405 gn with the same !

Plinking & goat loads are 27gns of ADI 2205 with a 300gn cast & 34gns of ADI 2207 with the 405 ! As I really don't feel the need to be knocked around anymore .

Dave
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  #8  
Old 06-24-2006, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave H
Both the 45-70 & the 375 H&H are one shot put money in the Bank stoppers! The advantage gong to the 45-70 where a rate of fire was important to me so far as, speed of kill ! I was able to take the second & third Buff in a group ut of the game & into the Bank before the rest would realise what was happening & put it into high gear & head out for safer pastures! The 375 had the advantage of being a superb Plains rifle! One could "Snipe" at the Beasts at long range fro the cover of scrub & maybe take one or two & then wait until they settled again .
You know, that reminds of the story I heard about Bell, the man famous for taking out over a 1000 African elephants using 7x57 175gn solids for the most part.
Apparently he crept up very close to a herd, shot the biggest bull, climbed onto it and shot the rest while they were milling around in confusion!!
It makes your adventures seem a little pedestrian, Dave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave H
In my Buff shooting days I used a pure Lino type cast bullet of 405 gns with a load of 52gns of IMR3031.
What exactly is a Lino type bullet?
What sort of alloy does it have?
For all the world it sounds like a floor covering!
BTW, Dave, did you ever try a 500gn?
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Last edited by kombi1976; 06-24-2006 at 10:35 PM.
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2006, 09:20 PM
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Talking

If my memory serves me correctly, from one of Peter Hathaway Capstick's books, Bell developed a technique of killing elephants from behind by shooting into the skin of the top of the head and the bullet would travel under the skin and then at some point end up getting turned into the brain. Now I THINK that's pretty much the gist of the story but I won't bet my next paycheck on it!
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  #10  
Old 06-25-2006, 11:14 PM
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Although Bell did shoot many Elephants with the 7x57 ! His favored rifle was a .318 (8mm) & he once wrote that if it had not been such a delicate weapon he would have prefered to use a 6.5 Manlicher he used as a meat rifle to feed his outfit ! He once had a Elepant's head removed & then sawn in halves to see how it was constructed .There fore he learnt where the weakest point of the skull was ! Andy, I would never compare myself with men like Bell , Selious , Black !!!! These men were explorers ,adventurer's ! Whereas myself & the others who practice the craft over here are purely & simply in it to make a living ! there is no adventure in what we do ! even with guided Hunts these days there is no danger to the hunter ! Either by deasise or by the animal they are hunting .

Lino-type was a very hard mixture of Lead ,tin & antimony used by the printing industry & it was harder than a mother in laws heart ! Great for casting perfect bullets ! unfortunatley it's harder to find than Hens teeth hese days !

The only time I ever tried 500 gn slugs was in a .458 I owned for several years & they proved more than enough for any thing in Australia (& were ****ed expensive to boot )

Dave
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  #11  
Old 06-29-2006, 01:27 AM
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Hi guys,

have just been directed accross to this forum from the guys at Nitro-Express forums as I am chasing info on the 45-70.

I'm in the process of buying a Marlin 1895SS from a work mate as he no longer uses it and after a recent buff hunt in the Territory I think a harder hitter would be good.

From the posts here it would appear that the 350gn pills are a bit light on for buff. Whereas a 400gn from Woodleigh is a better bet. Can I load this pill with adequate powder loads and still ensure it isn't too long to cycle through the Marlin action properly?

What starting load would you recommend using AR2206 or similar powders?

Thanks in advance.
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  #12  
Old 06-29-2006, 09:35 AM
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Kombie - Pardon me while I hijack your thread momentairly -

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO DAVE H ON HIS 44th!!!

Many more varmit hunts to you in the future!
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Old 06-29-2006, 10:14 AM
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FWIW for gundownunder.

There is a great likelyhood that no Buffalo (American Bison) was ever shot with a .30-30, at least not in a "fair-chase hunting" situation. The cartridge didn't exist until 1895, and the Buffalo were nearly completely destroyed by the early 1880's. The few that remained became a protected animal during the administration of President T. Roosevelt, and remained so until 30-40 years ago or so.
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  #14  
Old 06-29-2006, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnie
Hi guys,

have just been directed accross to this forum from the guys at Nitro-Express forums as I am chasing info on the 45-70.

I'm in the process of buying a Marlin 1895SS from a work mate as he no longer uses it and after a recent buff hunt in the Territory I think a harder hitter would be good.

From the posts here it would appear that the 350gn pills are a bit light on for buff. Whereas a 400gn from Woodleigh is a better bet. Can I load this pill with adequate powder loads and still ensure it isn't too long to cycle through the Marlin action properly?

What starting load would you recommend using AR2206 or similar powders?

Thanks in advance.
AR2206 400gn Min load 50.4 Max load 56gns
AR2207 400gn Min load 43.2 Max load 48gns

You'll have no problems seating a 400gn bullet in the case to function through the marlin Gunnie . You won't need a harder hitter for Buff out to about 150 mtrs !

Hey Kdub. Erm I reckon you've got the wrong Birthday Boy
mine was way back in April & (although I wish I was 44 again ) I'm a ways Older than that

Dave
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Old 06-30-2006, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdub
Kombie - Pardon me while I hijack your thread momentairly -

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO DAVE H ON HIS 44th!!!

Many more varmit hunts to you in the future!
Hey, Kdub, it wouldn't be the same is you didn't hijack my thread and misspell(sp?) my name!
44, eh, Dave?
Yeah, right!
144 perhaps.
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  #16  
Old 06-30-2006, 04:32 AM
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hey alk8944
what i said was
Quote:
i've heard the blokes in the top end knocked off quite a few buffs with the 30-30 in years gone by
So to clarify for you since your not from around here , top end = Northern Territory, Australia. and buffs are asiatic water buffalo released and gone feral in the top end, as opposed to your American bison. I am fully aware of the age of the 30-30 and the fact that bison were wiped out with black powder 45 and 50 cal guns like the Sharps, long before the 30-30 was invented.

Hey dave, glad you came clean, mate. cause i reckon your hats probably older than 44, and its not your first hat either

Bob
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Old 06-30-2006, 09:46 AM
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Gee, Guys -

Our birthday bar for members was showing DaveH as 44 the other day. Don't tell me there's 2 of you?!
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  #18  
Old 06-30-2006, 08:30 PM
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Hey dave, glad you came clean, mate. cause i reckon your hats probably older than 44, and its not your first hat either

The Problem I have with Hats is that no sooner have I broken them in & just get them how I want them! The wife goes & cremates them ! My working Akubra was near 39yrs Old & I made the fatal mistake of bringing it inside one morning after work !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Needless to say I'm breaking in a new one at the moment !!!

Dave
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Old 07-01-2006, 08:06 PM
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My heartfelt condolences mate.
My missus only did that to me once and that was 20 years ago, i've just about got the new one worn in now .
She has a looonnnggg memory, so she wont go anywhere near this one, she wont even pick it up to clean under it.

Bob
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