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  #1  
Old 11-21-2012, 08:41 AM
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the thread mentioned the Platt shootout


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in Miami and the supposed "failure' of the silvertip 9mm ammo, and I debunked that baloney, so you close the thread? :-) you say you know so much, yet you don't recall the "failure' and the 'reason" for the FBI bullet study? You just forget about the horrible, repeated failures of the 158 gr lhp .38 plus P load, cause that doesn't fit into your scheme of things about momentum, now does it?
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:20 AM
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I spent several threads showing the math used and graphs presented was a polluted data sets. Again the data used is not from the FBI. The data presented is from this web site here by a fella name Zak Smith. Unfortunately the author of the posts here at this forum, uses Zak's averages of averages and never tells us he is using Zak's non-scientific calculations. Then, we at this forum, think the information given is the correct FBI data in raw form.
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Last edited by mr glo; 11-21-2012 at 11:13 AM.
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  #3  
Old 11-21-2012, 09:35 AM
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I don't see you "being" around here very long, with this kind of attitude.

This forum is about guns, bullets, reloading, hunting, etc. We don't get into politics, we don't do never-ending rants and we have been over the question of SD bullet performance so many times that all you need to do is search a little to find everything you'll ever want to know.

Some forums specialize in the pummeling of deceased equines...we try to keep things a little more light-hearted. If you figure that out in time (before you're banned) you'll discover this is one of the best websites out there for all things guns and hunting. If not, you'll be stirring the pot somewhere else. That part is up to you, I suppose.
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  #4  
Old 11-21-2012, 09:55 AM
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I'm going to post this as fast as I can.

I hope in the future when the subject of Momentum vs Energy comes up we can all try to communicate in the same language.

I propose only one definition for momentum and for energy.

Momentum: A measurement of velocity in Imperial units of measure; m times v (md/t).
Where as m is the mass of a bullet in grains and v is the velocity of a bullet in feet per second and is expressed as pound-feet per second. It is also known that a conversion factor of 7000 is used within the equation to set the equation equal to the pound avoirdupois.

Energy: A measurement of work in Imperial units of measure; ft-lbf (dF).
Where as ft (d) is the foot and lbf(F) is the pound force and is expressed as the foot-pound force.

I as others, are aware that momentum can also be ma which is mass times acceleration (md/t^2) from Newtons third law ma = ma. In that case can we just say “Newton’s third law”?


Momentum can also be expressed as force. This is a twisted mathematical expression which is derived from either energy per distance (dF/d) or ma = F. Therefore momentum is equal to force and the terms are interchangeabal. In this case can we just say “force”?

Further momentum can be expressed as the Conservation of Momentum. In this case can we just say “conservation of momentum”?
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Last edited by mr glo; 11-21-2012 at 10:10 AM.
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  #5  
Old 11-21-2012, 10:34 AM
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I don't know who's right/wrong in this "discussion", but will say the board's policy is to be courteous in replies and to respect the other's opinions. And, that's what all this is - opinions. If you can't play nice, threads get closed and sometimes belligerents get thumped with temporary or permanent bans from the board. Think we're all agreed on these rules.
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  #6  
Old 11-21-2012, 02:43 PM
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I think Mr Glo muddied the definitions as (md/t) does not equal (md/t^2) and he defines both as momentum. It's simpler, although not as elegant to think of energy as momentum times velocity (comparisons can be made without defining the units as long as the same units are used)
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irv S View Post
I think Mr Glo muddied the definitions as (md/t) does not equal (md/t^2) and he defines both as momentum. It's simpler, although not as elegant to think of energy as momentum times velocity (comparisons can be made without defining the units as long as the same units are used)
No. I'm trying to clear the water. I never said md/t equals md/t^2 . I stated clearly they don't. However, md/t is momentum (pound feet per second) and md/t^2 is Momentum (mass times acceleration). The word “momentum” being used is the same word just different meanings.

Also it is both mathematically and scientifically false to conflate energy and momentum as the same. Try to do that in your high school math class and you will always get the problem marked wrong with a nasty red pen.

Again: Energy equals dF; momentum equals mv (md/t) and Momentum equals ma (md/t^2). Momentum in upper case is generally refereed to as ma or as the variable P pertaining to the Third Axiom and Conservation of Momentum respectively and momentum in lower case is the measurement of mass times velocity.

Energy and momentum don't use the same units of measure. Therefore, units of measure are required when mistakenly thinking energy and momentum are the same during a comparison.

Example:
What is the energy, momentum and force of a 180 grain bullet, impacting a game animal at 2700 feet per second and penetrating 18 inches?

Answer:
The energy is 2914 foot-pound force.
The momentum is 69.43 pound-feet per second
The force is 1942 pound force.
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Last edited by mr glo; 11-21-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-21-2012, 03:48 PM
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I think my above response to the above quote is a perfect example of why I feel we as a community “should”..., could come to a consensus on what these two words mean to us as hunters and shooters.
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  #9  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:08 PM
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I'll say what I want, when and where I want, and if I have to buy and utilize an IP changer, I will do so. You can ban me once an hour, and it will have no effect whatsoever.
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  #10  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
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I'll say what I want, when and where I want, and if I have to buy and utilize an IP changer, I will do so. You can ban me once an hour, and it will have no effect whatsoever.
Wow Being, someone really got under your skin. It's okay we like you. No need to declare war. I'm sure you will be given your space.
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  #11  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:46 PM
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being has been given some time off to think about things.
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  #12  
Old 11-21-2012, 06:05 PM
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Wow. It seems quieter already...

Uncle Nick mentioned something on a previous post (that still fits in this one) that I do not understand. He said, "At the 1987 wound ballistics conference, called in the wake of the disastrous performance of Winchester Silver Tip 9 mm ammunition in the FBI shootout in Miami in 1986." I'm not sure these are Nick's words or he is quoting someone else. I do not understand why the 9mm Silvertip was considered to have disastrous performance. My understanding was that the bullet hit Platt's humerus, went through it and into the body cavity. In 1980's bullet & cartridge technology that seems like all that can be expected from a 9mm that expanded.

I direct this mostly at Uncle Nick but, of course, any reply's are welcome. Not looking for a caliber war but just trying to understand how this cartridge is considered a great failure. I don't see it.

Thanks.
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  #13  
Old 11-21-2012, 08:15 PM
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The 9mm Siver Tip wasn't a great failure. The FBI couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door. May I add after reading severl accounts, the FBI also engaged the two murdrers with 12 gage shotguns and .357 magnum revolvers.

Speaking of that FBI shoot out, I would love to get my hands on the raw data and run the numbers myself. I would also be interest in what the other 2700 rounds from “phases” 3-8 show.
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Last edited by mr glo; 11-21-2012 at 09:24 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-22-2012, 05:36 AM
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Mr Glo. I think you are still muddying the definitions. I don't care what you propose and I don't agree that shooters and hunters should come up with a "consensus" as to what the words "energy" and "momentum" should mean. Physicists and engineers have long ago precisely defined these words and we should use their precise definitions rather than come up with our own. I don't know who in this discussion you think believes momentum and energy are the same and "conflate" the two. Part of the problem is your use of the term Momentum (capital M) which is not even in my old university physics text for power or mass times acceloration. It's been 50 years since I took that physics course, but I doubt that Newtonian physics has changed.
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  #15  
Old 11-22-2012, 06:27 AM
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Well, isn't this a fine kettle of fish?!

We put the trouble-maker in timeout, pending his purchase of an "IP Changer". (I have worked in IT for 12 years and the closest thing to this I'm aware of is actually called NAT. It's free...but whatever.)

Now we're back on the topic of momentum vs. Momentum, vis a vis bullet performance. I know the two folks debating the splitting of this particular hair will do so politely, so that's a relief. What I hope doesn't get lost in the discussion is that the Silvertip bullets at the core of the thread have been discontinued, or at the very least, modified to deliver better terminal performance. That is the crux of the matter and is more about design than mass, velocity, energy, momentum OR Momentum!

I feel it's safe to say that the SD bullets on the market today are light-years ahead of what was available 25 years ago. On this day of giving thanks, I hope none of us ever has cause to find out just how good they are.
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  #16  
Old 11-22-2012, 08:56 AM
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Alright guys this is going down the drain pretty quick, which honestly I think was the goal of the first post, and "being," all along.

Be civil please.
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  #17  
Old 11-22-2012, 09:45 AM
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I enjoy a discussion by more learned folks than myself and also think it will be kept within the bounds of civility as required by the board.
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  #18  
Old 11-22-2012, 11:07 AM
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I'm going to leave this discussion now and hope that the concepts of "Force", "Power", and "Work" don't get added to general discussions of bullet performance.

Last edited by Irv S; 11-22-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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  #19  
Old 11-22-2012, 11:17 AM
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Iím sorry that my post implied we as hunters and shooters should make-up or change any known and accepted definitions. On the contrary, Iím attempting to get us all on the same page when we communicate with each other. As many of us know, even the PhDís over at wikipidia disagree/discuss many different opinions on things within physics and engineering. Just scan through the talk pages of Momentum and Energy.

I think this is a good resource Momentum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for the explanation of momentum. The first paragraph with the example makes it pretty clear as to the relationship between momentum as a measurement p = mv and force (F = ma). For those with a heavy math background will read in calculus the nature of the rate of change in the conserved quantity; Momentum.

Hence, my suggestion we use specific terms even though the word ďmomentumĒ is correct for no less than 5 concepts.

As for energy, see Kinetic energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. But beware; wikipedia uses SI units of measure. We use Imperial units of measure. Itís best not to get sucked into the relationship of kinetic energy and momentum within that article, as that will inevitably lead you around in circles.

All things Newtonian (energy, power, momentum, force) start with F = ma and end with F = ma.
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