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  #1  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:10 PM
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45/70 versus .44 mag


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Alright folks, I need help with this decision:

Do you recommend 45/70 or 44 mag in a deer and maybe elk rifle. I hunt in the southeastern U.S.

I already shoot and reload for a ruger redhawk 44 mag, but could easily add one more cal to the reloading bench if needed.

The biggest question is recoil. I shoot an old M1 Garrand without too much flinching (quit snickering - I bagged two deer last fall - okay, they did actually get real close and ask to be shot). Will the 45/70 try to take my shoulder clean off with 1895 loads (405 or 425 grn at about 1700fps)?

Thanks for your help.
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  #2  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:25 PM
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Holy moly, that's quite a difference.... consider a few things:

The .44 mag rifles will normally be the lighter model lever / bolt guns. They kick worse than you'd think.

The .45-70 lever guns tend to be a bigger, heavier gun, but if you load them up to max, they will REALLY thump you.

My .45 Colt cowboy (Marlin 1894), which sort of sits in the middle of the two (but much closer to the .44 mag than .45-70), just knocked the snot out of me the first time I shot a heavy load. Wasn't expecting that at all!

If you think you can live with the somewhat shorter range limitations of the .44 mag, you'd probably be happier with it, I would think. Plus you can easily load down for an easier time at the bench.

Without question, my .45 Colt lever gun with 300grain load kicks worse than my Garand. Garand has a much softer shove; the Marlin is a sharp kick. Maybe it's the gas system on the Garand?
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  #3  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:38 PM
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Kind of a toss-up between the Garand and a light .44mag. carbine loaded well....big heavy Garnad and it's gas action does seem to take the worst of the sting out of the 30-06 pretty well.

You'd notice a full bore .45/70 load in comparison...the Marlin lever guns are not light weights, but are about as light as I care to go in 45.70.

But lets look at this differnetly...you have a 30-06...it could well kill the game you list just fine...so will assume you've the urge for something differnt. IF you've already got a .44mag. handgun (and with careful-close hunting, it too could do in the critters you have in mind)...so the only "new" would be the 45-70.

As you have control of the loading bench, how hard it thumps you is your decision...not like the Garand, doesn't have to have full charged ammo to function.

Are those that like the single caliber for handgun and rifle. Persoanlly, think it's the opposit of what a hunter needs...both using the same round equal the same useful range of use. Using ballistic opposits seems to give the widest use (say a .22handgun and a 45-70 rifle...or a .44mag. handgun and a .22LR rifle).
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  #4  
Old 06-30-2005, 09:57 PM
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I faced the same choice and went w/ the 45-70.

You can load it hotter for hunting large game like elk, but it can also be loaded pretty mild for deer sized animals.

If you hadn't mentioned elk, the 44'd do well, but IMHO for the larger game the 45-70 will be a better choice.
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  #5  
Old 07-01-2005, 05:13 AM
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Whatever you get you will eventually want the other one.
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  #6  
Old 07-01-2005, 05:15 AM
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Maybe there's a shooting techinique/style problem rather then a cartridge problem. I know that if I leave any space between the butt and my shoulder my 1895 in 405 Winchester, 1895 in 30-06, 1886 in 45-70 Winchester and 375 Whelen are going to kiss me with great vigor and passion.
Another possible problem that I've noticed with moderate recoiling rifles, is the size of the guy behind the rifle, makes a difference. I'm 6 foot and 175, there about, my shooting buddies are 5'8" 250 and 6'3", 280, they don't want anything to do with those rifles of mine. Newton's 1st law? With me, the rifles merrily moves me out of the way. With my shooting pards the rifle meets an immovable object and there's meat in between the butt and the mass.
One of my favorite loads for my Rossie 92, 45 Colt is a 300 grain Saeco and 20 grains of H110. Another buddy, a jewler, cowboy want-a-be, shot 20 rounds and his shoulder looked like he got into a punching contest with Mike Tyson. Again this was a large fellow 5'9" 250.
My suggestion is go with the 45-70 find an accurate load with 300 grainers, using Unique, and plink 'til your heart's content. When you are comfortable with that load try some of the Springfield trapdoor loads, factory equivilents actually. The factory loads will smack down any whitetail in a most satisfying manner.
Have fun, the 45-70 is great for hunting the thick stuff. I don't care what the experts say, a 400 grain slug at 1,400 to 1500 fps does a fine job of plowing through the laural thickets.
Jim
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  #7  
Old 07-01-2005, 05:27 AM
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Your Redhawk can load any available round while the marlin can't. The overall length becomes an issue in the marlin. The difference in performance between the Redhawk and the marlin is not that much since the 44mag is a close range round.

The 45-70 has the capacity to take any animal on the planet. Plenty of deer and elk have been taken with 45-70 light factory loads. But hand loading is were the 45-70 realy shines. 405gr hard cast bullets will cleanly take deer and elk while the 500gr is better sutied for bear.

The biggest issue with Recoil is shooting long strings at the range. If you plan on shooting long strings of hot loaded 405s and 500s then I would highly recommend you invest in a "PAST" shoulder pad or somthing similar. For hunting recoil is not realy an issue.

I think the 45-70 will be a better choice in the long run because it will add more versitility to your gun safe than the 44mag will.
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  #8  
Old 07-02-2005, 03:59 AM
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Hey Folks

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts. Now I just have to convince the beautiful one that this is a worthwhile expense. Maybe if I buy her roses first, ....
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  #9  
Old 07-02-2005, 01:36 PM
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If she's like most a shopping spree for a new pair of shoe's will go farther.

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  #10  
Old 07-21-2005, 12:11 PM
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**** forget getting her a pair of shoes!! take her to Tahiti in a fully decked out gulfstream 550. take her up and down the beach and brag on her for her still looking like a really cute sexy high school cheerleader. Most women i know eat stuff like that up. if that doesn't soften her up nothing will.
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  #11  
Old 07-21-2005, 12:41 PM
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All the flattery never did Jack for me! The little Mrs. knew I was up to something About the only thing that will cool her jets is a new horse or watching me sweat my @$$ off putting up siding or what not around the house.

As a frequent shooter and big fan of the ILH (44 mag redhawk) I'd have to opt for the 45-70. Much more control when the moment of truth comes. I've been in spitting distance of elk a few times and I don't think I could have held a 44 mag still enough . Even after downing as many elk as I have there's something unnerving about being within pistol range of the great wapiti .I do practice with it at 100 mtrs BUT I wouldn't trust myself to shoot at game much beyond 50 mtrs.

Besides it would give you the excuse to buy a new toy. And you could always use the "I don't want to take any chances and wound one" approach on the little lady
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  #12  
Old 07-21-2005, 09:50 PM
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I have both a .44mag and a 45-70 lever gun. They are vastly different tools for vastly different purposes, with a common interface. I would not use one for the purposes of the other. While it is possible to use a monkey wrench as a hammer, it is not advisable...

So it really depends on what you want to use it for: Deer at 50 yds? - .44mag! no question; Moose at 200yds? 45-70! (something bigger may be in order...)

Suit the tool to the task. Or at least compromise in the direction of most common use, and acquire skill accordingly.

As for the spousal question, I can't really offer any advise. When I had serious problems (over several weeks) repairing my old truck, and complained about it, my wife told me "Then why don't you just go buy a D***ed truck!"

I said "Yes, dear."
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  #13  
Old 07-24-2005, 07:56 AM
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DON"T BUY HER ROSES, buy her the 44mag and get the 45-70 for you. That way you can use whichever one you want.
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  #14  
Old 07-26-2005, 01:48 PM
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Niether, buy a .444, at least you can share the bullets with the handgun and rifle. In a pinch you can use the .44 mag dies for the .444. Just an idle thought.
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  #15  
Old 07-30-2005, 07:09 PM
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Gentlemen,

It is with much glee that I anounce that I have ordered a Marlin 1895 in 45-70. Many of you clearly made the point that it was much more versitile than the 44 mag. I even went ahead and ordered lapping bullets and a box of 425 grn WLN slugs from Marshall.

All my beautiful wife extracted from me (so far?) was the purchase and installation of a ceiling fan. And I even managed not to shock myself. On the other hand, she does read your posts from time to time, so you might want to reconsider making too many vacation suggestions.

Thanks for all your help.

Dave.
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  #16  
Old 08-06-2005, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Denby
Gentlemen,

It is with much glee that I anounce that I have ordered a Marlin 1895 in 45-70.
I think you ve made the perfect choice.. You can load the .45-70 right down to .44mag levels for plinking but it can go up real quick and be a very effective round on any north American game.

It you're not reloading already, the .45-70 will give you the perfect excuse. All comercial ammo (with some exceptions) is designed to pressures for the trap-door .45-70's. I have a modern Winchester in .45-70 and can tell you that there's a LOT of power available from the modern rifles chambered in this cartridge - you just need to load for it..
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  #17  
Old 08-06-2005, 11:34 AM
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Aww heckDave Take her to Tahiti, take her up and down the beach and brag about how cute and sexy she is to all the guys. She'll love you for it anyway. She deserves it. Besides as her husband that's your job anyway.
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  #18  
Old 08-07-2005, 01:15 AM
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Now I just have to convince the beautiful one that this is a worthwhile expense. Maybe if I buy her roses first, ....




Dave go for the 45-70! As for the Bride speaking from long exp in these matters .....If you buy her roses !She'll know you up to something (I tried that one & she went staight to the gunsafe& did a head count! Fourtanatly the bruises she gave me did'nt show in public & I passed out on the 3rd well aimed
kick to my groin!) My advise! Buy the gun! take it home show her put it down & then Brace your self for the ensuring blows !

Dave
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  #19  
Old 08-11-2005, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Denby
Gentlemen,

It is with much glee that I anounce that I have ordered a Marlin 1895 in 45-70. Many of you clearly made the point that it was much more versitile than the 44 mag. I even went ahead and ordered lapping bullets and a box of 425 grn WLN slugs from Marshall.

All my beautiful wife extracted from me (so far?) was the purchase and installation of a ceiling fan. And I even managed not to shock myself. On the other hand, she does read your posts from time to time, so you might want to reconsider making too many vacation suggestions.

Thanks for all your help.

Dave.



Dave, congrats on buying a great rifle and cartridge with heritage. The round is a handloaders dream and easy number to start with if you havent already. The 45-70 "made" me into a handloader when I'd never really ever considered it. My guide gun is really the hunting "go to" gun and the hoot to shoot with the boys!



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