Shooters Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

How good is the 45/70 in Africa /Alaska

54K views 94 replies 47 participants last post by  Shawn Crea 
#1 ·
Can the 45/70 take all of the BIG 5 or 6 of AFRICA cleanly? Why do alot of AFRICAN hunters shun the 45/70? What about GRIZ/ KODIAC .MOOSE etc...
 
#28 ·
Another consideration might be the elastic effect of tissue on the projectile, specifically, the "dwell time" of the projectile in that particular tissue. There could possibly be enough "stretch" due to momentum to effectively increase the contact time in the medium. Most of the tests I've read about use a relatively brittle or non-elastic medium as compared to living animal tissue.
 
#29 ·
Rifle25 said:
Garrett does make some fine cartridges. I still think there are better options and I don't think we'll ever find out just how good the 45/70 is with Dangerous African game, mainly because no one uses one on dangerous game over there. There is simply never going to be enough data (never say never, right?) to be able to compare it to the old African standbys like the 375 H&H, 458 Lott, 416 Rigby, 458 Win Mag, and the NE calibers. Until the 45/70 starts being carried by PHs and is used on regular basis, it's not going to get the respect of the other calibers on the dark continent. Although the 45/70 is a very old cartridge, it's still a baby where dangerous African game is concerned.

Until the 45/70 starts being carried by PHs and is used on regular basis, it's not going to get the respect of the other calibers on the dark continent.
45-70 FOR CAPE BUFFALO?
http://www.wildwestguns.com/Reviews/CoPilotAfrica/body_copilotafrica.html

Danie van Graan
Professional Hunter
Engonyameni Safaris
PO Box/Posbus 56
Kaapmuiden 1295
Mpumilanga, South Africa.




You ask and there ya go


PA Bullet's
 
#30 ·
I'm not an authority on the 45/70, all I know is that I like the old round. I have an '86 Win in 45/70 and if I stayed within the range and capabilites of the round, I wouldn't feel undergunned for anything that I would like to hunt. Vince Lupo has already proven what he can do with the Garrett ammo and that's good enough for me. I don't have any plans on going to Africa, or have any plans on hunting dangerous game, but for every thing else, that would be the round that I had planned on using. Mike Venturino has done a lot with that old round and he's tops in my book. I will continue to shoot my 45/70 with my homemade ammo and have a lot of fun in the process.
 
#31 · (Edited)
I might be crazy (no comments please :) ), but in reading this, a little example came to mind.

Water. I'm sure at some point in time, all of use have been in some body of water and slapped the surface really fast. Depending on how fast you slap it, it can hurt. :) The slower you go, the less it hurts your hand and the more the penetration. Now, I know this is a GROSS oversimplification, but in the search for "why this does that", maybe it can give some insight as to why slower heavier bullets penetrate more.


.......or you can just tell me to shut up. :D

just kidding. :)

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a physicist, never hunted...Africa or anywhere else (still just a plinker...yes with a 45/70 ;) ), but do own a Marlin 1895SS 45/70. :)
 
#32 ·
I may be mistaken, but I believe the 458 Lott predates the 458 Winchester. Winchester decided to use the "standard" length case for it's load.

The use of the 458 Lott, from what I understand, is not based simply on theory and wet newspaper tests, but from field use and observation of game animals shot with them. Simply put, they are used because they work better than the 458 or similar rounds.

There may be some "tradition" in selection of African cartridges, but I seriously doubt that better performing rounds would be rejected out of hand because of tradition. This isn't deer hunting, the results of failure are terminal for Professional Hunters.
 
#33 ·
Hasn't the 45/70 made a big comback with Bear hunters & Moose as of late? Any big ones that we know of taken with this round...GRIZ/KODIAK
 
#35 ·
DOGMAN said:
Hasn't the 45/70 made a big comback with Bear hunters & Moose as of late? Any big ones that we know of taken with this round...GRIZ/KODIAK
Dogman, Stevenson is about the most noted guide in Alaska that uses the .45-70 and too likes his .375. Surely his skills not including our lowly accounts on kills will attest to the fact the .45-70 is capable of taking any NorthAmerican animal so long as you do yours. Pictures are for clients and unless they come aboard you are not likely to see any. Many of us who live in "bush" Alaska can tell you how big of bears we kill but it is not a general conversation like you find on the forums. The venerable .45-70 no matter what the general consensus is with the big bore fans is that it kills very well.
 
#37 ·
DOGMAN said:
Can the 45/70 take all of the BIG 5 or 6 of AFRICA cleanly? Why do alot of AFRICAN hunters shun the 45/70? What about GRIZ/ KODIAC .MOOSE etc...


Sir:

I saw a show on ESPN, regarding the very same subject you were trying to address. I learned several topics on hunting rifles that should be considered when "Africa" is the main consideration. The terrain, in almost all situations, is the governing factor and most shots may vary from 100-400yds.
The subject of lethality is not the question, but accuracy at extreme ranges becomes the issue. That is why the 375 H&H is the choice of weapons by most big game guides. When compared, the 375 H&H (not excluding the 375 RUM, Dakota,
ect...) has the best overall terminal performance including close and distant range ballistics. I hope this has been of some help.

Joe
 
#38 · (Edited)
BAGTIC said:
The concept that high speed bullets penetrate less because the slow down faster is seriously flawed. It is equivalent to the old urban myth that hot water freezes faster because it loses heat faster.
Sorry to hijack for a minute, but this is not really an "urban myth", but rather a scientific anomaly that occurs in certain circumstances. Here is some material supporting your "urban myth":

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html

Joe,

You stated that, "The terrain, in almost all situations, is the governing factor and most shots may vary from 100-400yds.
The subject of lethality is not the question, but accuracy at extreme ranges becomes the issue. That is why the 375 H&H is the choice of weapons by most big game guides."

With all due respect, I doubt many PHs would have you shooting at 400 yards at dangerous game. While i have not been to Africa yet, I am doing a lot of research in preparation for my upcoming Leopard hunt. Most of my reading indicates that most shooting for dangerous game is under 100 yards.

Dan
 
#39 ·
Oneeye66

Looks like you and i are on the same page ...of all the folks i have talked to and sold bullets to that have hunted DG most shots are within Feet not yards... like Cape buffalo under 200 feet away.. Eleph/ under 70 feet
Lion <-African .. under 100 feet away ...
**** (Sorry bot that ) most of the couger i kill are under 100 feet away

The only thing that most folks shoot at distance at are Kudo And eland .


Martin
 
#40 ·
"
I'm sure Mr. Stanton's new pile drivers are very capable indeed. However I would choose the garrett loads soley to the fact that I would never be able to load the pile drivers as hot as the Garrett loads are due to my inability to use the comerical powders that people like mr. Garrett have at their disposal. And in africa I would rather go with the hottest load I could...."

I am under the impression that Garrets loads are NOT the very top end loads. You can use commonly available load data and safely duplicate, or even excede Garretts loads. His loads are not anything mysterious or special in the world of handloading the 45-70, they are just available commercially. People have been safely loading heavy 45-70 rounds for half a century or more.
 
#41 · (Edited)
Penetration vs Pressure Shock

The reason higher velocity comparably sized and weighted bullets do not penetrate as far is that liquids are non-compressible. The harder you try, the harder they will oppose. However the harder you try, the higher the pressure will be in the liquid until the container breaks.

Drop dynamite in a river and you kill lots of fish, Most are killed by the pressure wave. They show no physical penetration.

Translating this into dangerous game it seems there must be an optimal balance point. Pressure wave verses penetration. Depending on the point of penetration, the effect can be quick kill or non-kill.

The pressure wave can kill simply by coming close.

Because a solid 375 from a 375 Ruger can penetrated through the skull of an Elephant and out of the rump, I think there is penetration enough. Add to this the better pressure shock, I would vote vote the 375 over the 45/70.

However, with a well placed shot the 45/70 500gr solid should and has done well.

There are other options. A 300 grain solid out of a 45 70 can achieve 2500 fps. The 375 and 300gr is about 2650 fps. The ballistics of the 375 are better, yet should be balanced against the larger 458 bullet.

The 458 Magnum is obviously better in my opinion, because it can be adjusted to act like a 4570 or up to its maximum potential.
 
#43 ·
Yeah but then again, in the last 7 years look at what has been done on a larger scale with the heavy 45-70 loads and several renown experts having taken the Big5 and been on other safari's with 1895s!!! I think some eyes have been opened over the last half decade on the Dark Continent and we "crazy American's and our Fine Country Gentleman leverguns"! :D

I wouldn't hesitate to wade in after ANYTHING on legs with my GuideGun stoked full of the baddest, heaviest, hardest kicking rip snorters! Would be fun and honestly I'd feel more, well armed with it than I would relying on only 2 shots from a $30K English double.

But I wonder how many PHs and outfitters would still have a hangup about an "ol American buff gun" showing up in their camp for a dangerous hunt??? :confused:
HL
 
#49 ·
fritz1, good post those Garrett's look to be the ****,for the big stuff and the 45-70.But think back and about Art Jones he took all major game with his .44mag handgun............Of course Art either had big ***** or a loose screw or both.But he did it,and the 45-70 is much more cartridge..........JMO
 
  • Like
Reactions: fritz1
#51 ·
The .223 has shown that it is possible to get good accuracy from a cartridge have a neck length shorter than the bullet diameter.

There is another reason for long necks. If the neck is designed short one must either have a short throated rifle and short overall length or use only bullets long enough to reach from the leade to the neck. That pretty much limits you to long bullets only. OTOH the neck is long enough to get a good grip on the shortest bullet to be used there is a choice. If you only intend to shoot one weight, style bullet bullet you can design specifically for that bullet but if you think you may ever want to experiment it helps to have a litle extra neck length fo measure. Long necks only become a problem when they are so long that a bullet seated to max OAL causes the bullet ogive to extend inside the neck.

Remember that for long range shooting a long bullet with a high ballistic coefficient will generally out perform a short high drg bullet.
 
#53 ·
I truly do believe that the 45/70 caliber was never really meant for the big 5 as some refer to the African animals. There are far more better choices in firearms than the 45/70 lever gun for such dangerous animals. To use one on this type of big dangerous game, needs plenty of backup with larger caliber rifles.

I don't think one should ever try to kill a Tusker or Rhino with the 45/70! It takes one heck of a lot of penetration to reach the vitals in the first place. It no doubt has been done a time or two but so has the game Russian Rouelett been played many times and NO ONE always wins that game either.

A good Double gun in proper caliber or a Mauser type action bolt gun in a caliber such as the .458-LOTT is far more suitable for such types o game on the dark continent. I do think ethics is just as important in hunting. To try and kill an animal with to light a bullet is just as unethical, as using to small a caliber etc. Bye the way I love my 45/70 & 444 lever rifles but I leave them home on my next trip to Africa.
 
#56 ·
As most of you know I used a 450Marlin to kill a 1 ton+ bison about 2 years ago.

Used a 400g Speer bullet at 1900+ ft /sec and was about 85+ yrds away (Neck shot).

It was DRT did not even finish taking the step he was taking.

With all that, I felt pretty naked there with nothing between him and me and nowhere to go.

So

All things being equal

For Cape Buffalo…

I would rather have a 458 Lott with 500g bullets

Snake
 
#59 ·
Red Pepper

I'm not sure any man portable caliber will bring a halt to any big critter with bad attitude consistantly. I would take some comfort in having 6 or 7 rounds waiting to go down range, I shoot a Winchester 1886 take down.
I'm partial to the Lyman 457102 cast from water cooled wheel weights ahead of a case full of IMR 4064. I'm sure that if I needed to rapidly off load a magazine full of those rounds I'd be a bit miffed.

Jim
 
#60 ·
Listen up all those who favor using a 45/70 caliber to hunt Rhino, Tuskers or Cape Buffalo!!! Now Penetration is not the only name of the game here gentlemen, it is having enough STOPPING POWER behind the bullet. One should take a hard look at that figure too!

Then we have an action that is more prone to have a problem verses a Double Gun or the Mauser Bolt action, this has been tested many many times. In fact it is done every year in South Africa to graduate PH school.

I personally love my 1895 and other lever action rifles but I am also very in tune to what Professional Hunters in Africa tell me is written in stone, when it comes to facing any of the Big Five Animals on the Dark Continent. There is more to it, than weather or not the 45/70 hardcast bullet can penetrate more news print than a .458-Lott. Bye the way gents I want all the odds on my side facing such animals. I use a Mauser type action in a caliber called the 500-Jefferies with over 8,000 lbs of K energy.
 
#65 ·
What I see when I read this post is someone who's got a deep ingrained bias against trying something different. I would never feel "undergunned" with either of my Browning 1886's stoked with either the RCBS 520 gr FNGC's at 1700 fps, nor the Barnes solid 450-500 gr FN's I've loaded against any animal discussed here. The 86 is utterly reliable, just as reliable as a double or a Mauser. And with 10 rounds available in the magazine, it's a far better choice than the double or Mauser. As far as picking a weapon that WILL stop a charging Rhino, Elephant, etc, Give me an RPG or an Abrams Tank's main gun.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top