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How good is the 45/70 in Africa /Alaska

54K views 94 replies 47 participants last post by  Shawn Crea 
#1 ·
Can the 45/70 take all of the BIG 5 or 6 of AFRICA cleanly? Why do alot of AFRICAN hunters shun the 45/70? What about GRIZ/ KODIAC .MOOSE etc...
 
#61 ·
MjyEagle, sir I am unaware of any information that I have posted was in fact in correct as you stated in your post! I am no rookie at hunting big game animals here in the USA, Canada or the Dark Continent.

I am very aware of the fact the 45/70 using hardcast bullets, especially those "Piledriver's" of Marshalls. However, the facts of penetration like I stated are only part of the equation that must be solved in order to harvest a Big Tusker, Rhino or even a little Cape Buffalo when it decides to charge you sir.:rolleyes::(
 
#62 ·
From everything I've read there is a deep and abiding prejudice against using a lever gun in Africa. If I went to Africa tomorrow and killed 300 buffalo and 200 elephant with a single shot each, with a lever .45-70, it would still be called a fluke and stunt by many.

The right bullet and shot placement would seem to be 90% of the equation for Africa, just as it is for everywhere and everything else. We love our traditions, and for Africa a bolt or double rifle are the only two rifles that many consider worthy of using and taking African game.
 
#63 ·
I've spent a lifetime hunting Africas big 5...The 45-70 is not a gun I would want to hunt DG with..I have seen it used successfully on Buffalo, but I have also seen the 30-30 and a 303 used successfully on Buffalo. I know of other light calibers that have been used on them...but if you hunt buffalo, elephant, Hippo or Lion enough then at some point you will have to stand a charge...Every buff I know of shot with a 45-70 that was killed ran a long ways before he expired and could have done a lot of harm if he charged..Today its somewhat of a "stunt" to hunt DG with sub calibers...Keep in mind the .458 win suffered a lot of critisism when the factorys loaded it down to 1900 to 2000 FPS. Lots of failures were reported...Its easy justify hunting DG with any caliber, especially if you have never hunted them..However to each his own, use it if you want and I know the 45-70 has a cult following for some reason..I have used it on plainsgame and deer and elk, and it has never impressed me all that much..

I do love the old 86 Winchesters however and have owned a number of 45-70s and 45-90s and I prefer the 45-90 with a 26" Octogon barrel... I use them on stuff that won't bite, hook or stomp me.
 
#66 ·
I have never been to Africa, let alone "hunted the big five." That being said, I would be willing to belive those that have been there and done that. On at least two ocassions that I can remember of hunting white tail deer, I remember being charged by an angry buck. My .45-70 stopped one of them in his tracks and another stopped in his tracks with my old reliable .338 WIN MAG. True, they were probably a little "over-gunned", but they are my favorites for deer hunting in Wisconsin. What would I use if heading to the dark continent for the big five? I think that I would be inclined to follow some good advice.
 
#67 · (Edited)
Baddad-457, You sir just don't seem to understand what is and what is not, when the odds are laid down in front of you. I never give the odds to the dangerous game animal I am hunting understand. Only a total "FOOL" would do such a thing and I am no fool sir. Also I will tell you this much, my favorite hunting rifle on the ranch is in fact is a .444 Marlin 1895 lever gun and next to it is a Marlin 1895 45/70. However I am not hunting, what I truely consider "dangerous game animals" with either of those rifles.:rolleyes:

If you or anyone else thinks I am pulling your leg, you can ask for the invoice of bullets I have purchased, in the last year for my lever guns, models 1876-50/95, 1886-45/70, 1874 Sharps 45/120, John Bodine Rolling Block 45/90, 1885 High Wall in 45/90 and 45-120 calibers. Yeah, in the area of around $1,500 bucks or so for bullets alone.

Now as far as trying something different, chances are I have already done what your thinking at least twice!!!:D I have jumped out of planes and helicopters for a rush. I have jumped off several large bridges in this USA and climbed a skyscraper of two as well. I set a record once, by running up 88 floors of the Sears Tower Building faster than any other person. Now when the betting was over I went home with $400 bucks in bets money. Laid cable across the Royal Gorge! Connected iron on the John Hancock building, Sears Tower building and Amico building. I even ran a car around the brick yard at 145mph (slooow eh!) some years ago. Ran a motorcycle at 162 mph when I was 65 years old on my birthday. ;)

Now when it comes to hunting dangerous game animals, I am using what I know 100% is the correct weapon for me, believing in those Professional's who showed me the ropes years ago. My trusted rifles dangerous game rifles are my big bore bolt action rifles in .375-Wby, .416 Remington, .458-LOTT, .470-Capstick and last 500-Jeffery's.:eek: ;) :cool: I simply believe in using the best possible tool for the job at hand period. Now bye the way, the only thing that was ever ingrained in my body were stitches to sew me up after the the fight and the bones that were set by the doctor. I have had well over 300 of those contested pieces of thread laid in me and over 3 dozen staples. Yeah! those were fun times you betcha.
 
#69 ·
If a .45 Colt in a 5 shot revolver will stop a charging Cape Buffalo, there is no way in hades you will convince me a 45/70 wouldn't. If a single round from a 454 Casull will take down an elephant with a frontal brain shot, I cannot imagine the same wouldn't be possible to do with a 45/70. Penetration is penetration, I have watched deer run off after a perfect shot from a 375 H&H, and another hit in almost the same location drop within a few yards when hit with a hard cast bullet from a 45/70, the 375 exit wound was almost the same size as the exit from the 45/70. Being able to place the shot when under pressure is far more important than how much gun powder is pushing the bullet.
 
#71 ·
This reminds me of some of the whizzing contests over at Accurate Reloading. Why not agree to disagree?
If I could go to Africa I'd like to do it with my 45-70 1886 Winchester and my 1895 Winchester in 405 for plains game, antelopes maybe a warthog, using hard cast bullets.

Jim
 
#74 · (Edited)
Baddad-457-Ummmmm seems like to just like to insult people with your posts, so be it pal. I will only say that in my years, I never sat on my ARSE and did nothing but toast beers in a saloon.

I spent many a year doing many things, I hope someday you get to accomplish as much in your lifetime, as I have done with mine and I do thank the LORD for being able. This year I am 70 yrs young and can still toe the mark for 2 rounds!!! :rolleyes: I also raise some of the finest big dogs in the USA at my kennel "High Hill Gun Dogs" now go eat your heart out unworthy one.:rolleyes:


Ah Buffalo! Now we come to something the 45/70 and it's big brothers were invented to do: KILL BUFFALO!~
My Sharps 45/120 is yet to be tested on the animal but come next season "LORD" willing It will be along with a new High Wall in 45/90. However, don't ever begin to put these type weapons in the same catagory as a .458-LOTT, .470-Capstick or .500-Jeffery. These are without a doubt, Dangerous Game Rife's and only a person with no experience would choose a 45-70 over the above calbier's period.
 
#75 ·
And do you really think I'm somehow impressed with all your claims to fame ? :rolleyes: Not in the least. I've done things too in my years that you've never dreamed of, but I'm not going to bore anyone here with those stories. And I don't frequent saloons and drink. Don't have the time for such things. I'm not insulting you, I'm just pointing out the obvious.
 
#77 ·
Everything has been killed with just about everything. WDM Bell killed a thousand and eleven elephant, mostly with the 7x57, and smaller but considerable numbers with the .318 Jefferies (which is actually a .330) and the 6.5x54 Mannlicher, which is only a little higher in velocity than the 6.5mm Carcano round. In all cases he used round-nosed solids. He also killed, if memory serves me correctly, sixteen Cape buffalo with that many shots from a .22 Savage Hi-power, which is no better than a heavy-bulleted .222 Remington. He didn't believe any animal deliberately charges the hunter immediately on being shot. But they will dash off in a random direction, unaware where the bullet came from, and will seize on a target of opportunity if the hunter happens to be there.

But Bell was a consummate anatomist, hunting in conditions where he often stalked very close, but could afford to pass up a dangerous opportunity, when he couldn't find an area the size of your palm. A logic I think he held, and which is worth considering, is that it would take some quite extreme sort of cannon to kill an elephant, or even temporarily immobilise it, with a shot just a few inches from a good one. He never used the .375 H&H, but admired it, and I believe the logic for rifles of that proportion is that a well-aimed second shot, at an animal just seconds away, may be worth more than more power in the first.

The leopard is indeed a very different proposition. Jim Corbett spent mostly nocturnal weeks hunting experienced maneaters, and often shot from feet rather than yards. He also found the .275, aka 7x57, a useful weapon, though for tiger he preferred a double .400 for occasions when he knew the shot would be very close. I've never shot either, and don't expect to. But I've examined a mounted leopard skeleton from close up. There was scarcely a bone you couldn't break between your fingers, but from about eight feet away it might as well have had no ribcage, for the skull blotted it out. Nobody should sacrifice the chance to shoot very quickly and accurately, once or twice, at one of those. I'd find and practice with a rifle which let me do what I once did for fun: shooting slow clays with a rifle, and trying to hit them more than a third of the time.

Back on the topic, a lot could undoubtedly be done in Africa with a .45-70, on game for which national restrictions allow it. It should preferably be a modern load, including bullet, such as would be usable in the Ruger No.1 - or better, anything that does the same with a repeating capacity.

I have a Winchester 1886 in .40-82, which I don't really expect to use on anything living. The recoil is quite comfortable, but I think the geometry of the conventional lever-action would inhibit the chances of a rapid second shot with the .405 in the 1895 Winchester. It has lived and shot for a long time since 1888, if Madis's serial number booklet is correct, and I can't see any parts which look like replacements. Nonetheless it does strike me as a less reassuring mechanism than a good bolt action, and I would want to be mighty sure no little bits of debris had found their way into the works.
 
#79 ·
BADDAD, I never used the words "lowly peon's" those were your words not mine. Now just go take a hike and do not respond to my posts period, if you don't like what you read. You are evidently still wet behind the ears, so I will excuse you and your up bringing.:rolleyes::eek:
 
#81 ·
I too own a Winchester 1886, it is a wall hanger and will never get taken to the range! It cost to much to worry about loosing it etc. Now speaking of recoil Mr. Trucker, you can cuddle up to my 500-Jeffery is you really wish to find out what recoil is to the human torso!!!:eek:

No lever gun, including my very own, is going to put out near the recoil or the "smack down" that a 500-Jeffery or .505-Gibbs is going to put forth. You just might want to go to the library and look that fact up. Lever guns were meant for Cowboys and Soliders of the day. Great "white hunters" use what is best and those are double guns and bolt action rifles with plenty of bullet mass and horsepower to drive them into the next county.:rolleyes::eek:
 
#83 · (Edited)
My double 45/70 stoked with 520 gr bullets moving at 1500 fps will when you pull both triggers at the same time. I do it just for kicks and giggles. That's 1040 grs of lead out of a rifle that weighs about 8 pounds. Knocks you back about 3 ft when you shoot it like this. I've got two 1886 Brownings, neither are wall hangers. One has had at least 5000 rounds put though it, I quit counting somewhere in the 3000 rd range. Follow up shots ? I can spit all 10 rounds out the barrel in a few seconds. That's ten 520 gr bullets at 1700 fps in the space of 15 seconds or so. Can your Jeffery do that ? ;)
 
#82 ·
The 1895 Marlin is rated by some at 43,000 psi where the modern1886 Winchester is rated at 50,000. Vintage 1886's on the other hand are anybody's guess. I don't think I'd test any of them to destruction to find out.

Rather than think in terms of failure strength of actions, think in terms of working strength. There is apparently little or no difference here. Were this otherwise, commercial loading manuals would reflect such differences. And the industry of converting Marlin 1895s to 50 Alaskan, 450 Alaskan, 470 Turnbull, and the enormous 510 Kodiak Express would not exist.

RJ
 
#84 ·
Never thought I'd see the day when someone would be happy getting knocked back 3 feet when shooting a long gun! :eek:
 
#87 · (Edited)
Well it ain't exactly long, with 21" bbls. But it does not hurt you, the secret is to stand, leaning into it and holding it snugly against your shoulder and rolling with the recoil. Everyone watchin gets a kick out of it too. Only protection is a leather glove to protect my knuckles from the trigger guard. One barrel hits to the point of aim at 50 yds, the other a couple inches off. This is a Greener actioned TOZ-66 (Russian made)12 ga fitted with EAA 45/70 barrel inserts. We had to machine new bushings for this gun as EAA's kit was built around their double 12 with 20" bbls and screw in chokes. They slip into the breach and there's a knurled nut that secures the bushings into the muzzle end of the barrel. I bought this bun new in the late 70's for around $300. The barrel kits cost me $170 for both. They were listed at $159 per kit, but could be they just wanted to get em moved, I got both for the price of one. The express sights cost me another $100 or so from Midway.
 
#88 ·
Shooters tend to be very conservative. Why change when what they are using already is working.

High rpm bullets are more likely to yaw because they are longer (L/D). The fast twist is used to compensate for their basic instability. I doubt that a shorter (L/D)bullet would yaw as much even if it was spinning faster. Should confuse the cause with the effect.

Bullets that need a slower twist rate to stabilize them ARE shorter bullets. Longer bullets need a faster twist rate.
 
#93 ·
Interesting read so far......

I've no Kodiak, Grizz or brownies here in the northeast wood, but we sure have some very, Very! big black bear, and very large moose. Moose in the rut in my opine are more dangerous than the bear.
That being said, my spring to fall woods jaunts have made me change my carry gun, from .357mag or .45acp to 44mag or .45colt. Both are at least 300 grain, hard cast, and at least 1000fps in the 44, and the most 1000fps in the Smith mountain gun. I don't feel undergunned with either. Hiking with the dogs, they sense things before I can, but without I've been known to employ a bear bell. My woods are deep enough that 99% of the time the bear have no human interaction, and turn-tail and run......it's the 1% I prepare for.
A 20 ga. rifle slug should be a good persuader too, and the Winnie Defender can carry 9 of them.

Believe it or not, and truly not trying to jack this thread, but the thoughts are out there that the Eastern Mountain lion is back in NH. Conservationists will refute this, but there's documented proof of two or three that have been killed by auto.....and as low in the state as Dartmouth[college]. There's an animal that has my respect.:eek:
 
#94 · (Edited by Moderator)
BadDad-457, NO my Jefferies can not shoot two bullets down the barrel at one time sir! However I feel no contest when your getting knocked back 3 ft everytime you pull the trigger.:eek:

I looks like to me (in my humble opinion) [EDIT] your rifle would be a big pile of Dung, I am positive before you could get the next volley off. I would think it would take you several seconds to recover from that horendous recoil dished out to you, so how are you going to be able to do this feat in just a few seconds. YOU GOT A MAGIC WOND FOR A RIFLE!:rolleyes::D:D:D
 
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