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  #1  
Old 10-10-2005, 06:57 PM
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How good is the 45/70 in Africa /Alaska


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Can the 45/70 take all of the BIG 5 or 6 of AFRICA cleanly? Why do alot of AFRICAN hunters shun the 45/70? What about GRIZ/ KODIAC .MOOSE etc...
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  #2  
Old 10-10-2005, 08:16 PM
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I think it depends on who you talk to, if you haven't used one on really big, tough game. I have not, but the concensus of what I've read seems to be that many feel it's "marginal" on The "Big 5" in Africa, and fine for anything in North America, provided you can do your part. The African success sounds like it has a lot to do with which components you're loading; some stand a better chance than others. Check out http://www.garrettcartridges.com/ and see what they have to say.
  #3  
Old 10-10-2005, 09:28 PM
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Nah, bullets from 45/70 just bounce off of the animals you mentioned. Thought everyone already knew that.

Grizz
  #4  
Old 10-11-2005, 07:09 AM
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Can it? Yes...Is there a better choice? Absolutely.

Taylor speaks of certain poachers taking elephant with a 7mm Mauser in his book "Pondoro." Doesn't mean a 7mm Mauser is a good elephant rifle.

I would feel completely comfortable with my 45/70 loaded properly against most anything that walks...except elephant, rhino, and maybe cape buffalo...give me a 375 H&H or larger for those anyday...
  #5  
Old 10-11-2005, 04:35 PM
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YES!
The following quotes were taken for Mr. Garrett's website and say it all much better than I ever could.

-Matt

"Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges produces a 540-gr SuperHardCast dubbed the Hammerhead that is loaded specifically for modern Marlin lever guns. This load produces 2880 foot-pounds of energy, and has a Taylor Knockout Value of 55. Penetration is truly astounding; the venerable .375 H&H doesn't even come close. This has become the No. 1 choice of round and rifle for countless individuals and groups who must work in areas containing grizzlies and brown bears. And yes, the combo has taken Africa's Big Six - buffalo, elephant, lion, leopard, rhino, hippo - quite handily. Not bad for a stubby brush gun and cartridge that went to the Battle of the Little Big Horn!"
- Tony Kinton, DEER & BIG GAME RIFLES, 2005

"I just got back from Africa where I took a great Cape buffalo with my Marlin 45-70 and Garrett's 540-grain Hammerheads. Man, what a combination! The big buffalo was broadside at 80-yards when I placed a 540-grainer through both shoulders, destroying everything in between and exiting. The buffalo dropped at the shot, but managed to struggle back to his feet and face me as the second shot hit him between the front legs and just below the neck. The frontal shot penetrated lengthwise through the buffalo and exited out the rear, turning everything from front to rear into jello and dropping the Buffalo on his *** and then his side, DEAD! Both exit wounds were big enough to insert one's fist into. You just can't get better performance than that on a killing machine like a Cape buffalo! I can't wait to get back to Africa to use up some more of those fantastic 540-grain Garrett Hammerheads!"
- Vince Lupo

"I shot the bison in Ford, Kansas. My bison was 17 years old and weighed 2157 pounds. The distance was 137 yards, and I took him at the standard broadside position. The bullet went thru the near shoulder and exited thru the off shoulder. My guide told me that bison stop all bullets and do not have an exit hole. He also said that bison run about 150-200 yards even when hit with a well-placed shot. Naturally, he was quite surprised to see him drop so quickly, but just couldn't believe that the Hammerhead went completely thru both shoulders and destroyed everything in between. I was told that my bison was only the third one out of 29 that required only one shot. My outfitter was Lee Hawes of Hawes Ranch Outfitters. None of this would have been possible without your Hammerhead bullets. Thank you for helping me to choose the correct bullet for the size game that I hunted. Your concern for the success and safety of my hunt is greatly appreciated."
- Larry Crain


"Randy Garrett's 45-70 Hammerhead 540-grain hard-cast at 1550-fps went 55-inches into wet newspaper." "The 500 Nitro Express with a solid weighing 570-grains penetrated 48-inches into wet newspaper, followed by the 458 Winchester Magnum with a 500-grain solid traveling at a muzzle velocity of 2260-fps and 47-inches of penetration." Penetration tests conducted at the 2001 Linebaugh seminar.
- John Taffin, American Handgunner, July / August 2002


"Garrett's ultra-blunt Hammerheads provide reliable stopping power on heavy game. They punch large wound channels, making them an excellent choice for such game as elk, moose, heavy bear, and buffalo. During my last African safari, I used Garrett's SuperHardCast 415-grain 45-70 load on a 2200 pound Cape buffalo in Botswana. My rifle was the Kodiak Mark IV, which handled Garrett's ammo with ease. The recovered bullet had penetrated through the buff's heart and chest, breaking a rib on the far side. It was found just under the hide in almost original condition, retaining 396-grains of its original 415-grain weight. I'm planning a return trip to the Dark Continent in the upcoming year, and plan on packing Garrett's cartridges with me on this trip as well. I'm a big fan of Garrett Hammerheads for dangerous, heavy game. They performed for me when it counted."
- Phil Spangenberger (GUNS & AMMO July 2001)


"Randy Garrett, the custom ammunition maker, has really been hard at work on the 45-70 cartridge as well as the various super-hot loads for the heavy pistol. He is now featuring a 415-grain hard-cast bullet for the cartridge that shows greater penetration than almost anything you can name, including the 375 Holland & Holland. When you remember that dangerous game is shot at short range, it begins to appear that we have been overlooking the best brown bear cartridge for more than 100-yrs."
- Jeff Cooper (Guns & Ammo, 2-95)
  #6  
Old 10-12-2005, 06:28 AM
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Garrett does make some fine cartridges. I still think there are better options and I don't think we'll ever find out just how good the 45/70 is with Dangerous African game, mainly because no one uses one on dangerous game over there. There is simply never going to be enough data (never say never, right?) to be able to compare it to the old African standbys like the 375 H&H, 458 Lott, 416 Rigby, 458 Win Mag, and the NE calibers. Until the 45/70 starts being carried by PHs and is used on regular basis, it's not going to get the respect of the other calibers on the dark continent. Although the 45/70 is a very old cartridge, it's still a baby where dangerous African game is concerned.

Last edited by Rifle25; 10-12-2005 at 06:32 AM.
  #7  
Old 10-12-2005, 07:46 AM
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Atitudes are a hard thing to change, and I believe that is the problem with the 45/70 in respect to how it is viewed in Africa. Sometime the "we've done it this way for x amount of years, why should we change" mentality is a very tough one to overcome. If the published balistic tests showing the 45/70's (when properly loaded) superiority (ie greater foot-pounds-energy, greater penetration, greater Taylor KO value) to accepted african calibers (375H&H, 458 Lot/Win Mag, etc) or the published first hand accounts of the same old gun taking all of the dangerouse game quite well ( infact Vince Lupo Killed 2 cape buffalo with one shot! thats penetration) doesn't change your mind, I don't know what will. No disrespect intended by this post, just putting in my .02, people have different oppinions and thank goodness we can all hunt with whatever we choose to. If I were leaving for Africa I would want two rifles, a bolt action 30-06 for the plains animals and my 1895GS stocked with Mr. Garrett's loads for everything else.
  #8  
Old 10-12-2005, 11:55 AM
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Matt, what would you think about Marshall's 525 gr .45-70 Pile Driver or his 425 gr Pile Driver Jr. for African game? I'm with you on this one, not that I'll ever get a shot at an African safari, but I would take the .45-70 in a heartbeat for it. I know the Pile Driver gets some outstanding penetration. However, I do not know what kind of trajectory folks are seeing with it. Guess I'll have to purchase a .45-70 one of these days and find out for myself!
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How good is the 45/70 in Africa /Alaska-btb-45r-525gwlngc2.jpg   How good is the 45/70 in Africa /Alaska-btb-45r-425gwlngc2.jpg  
  #9  
Old 10-12-2005, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gringo_loco
Matt, what would you think about Marshall's 525 gr .45-70 Pile Driver or his 425 gr Pile Driver Jr. for African game? I'm with you on this one, not that I'll ever get a shot at an African safari, but I would take the .45-70 in a heartbeat for it. I know the Pile Driver gets some outstanding penetration. However, I do not know what kind of trajectory folks are seeing with it. Guess I'll have to purchase a .45-70 one of these days and find out for myself!

Gringo,

I'm sure Mr. Stanton's new pile drivers are very capable indeed. However I would choose the garrett loads soley to the fact that I would never be able to load the pile drivers as hot as the Garrett loads are due to my inability to use the comerical powders that people like mr. Garrett have at their disposal. And in africa I would rather go with the hottest load I could. I do however have some loaded 405gr beartooths ready for deer season and plan to start loading a lot more as soon as all of my reloading stuff comes in.
  #10  
Old 10-12-2005, 12:45 PM
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I don't think appropriate powder selection/availability would be an issue, but then I don't load for the .45-70 and know nothing about Garrett's cartridges or powders either.
  #11  
Old 10-12-2005, 01:43 PM
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Now having read Randy Garrett's own posting several times (re-read below)

Having studied differant hardness factors of bullets.. I would have no problem loading my own and using the 525-gr Pile Driver that Marshall produces should I desire such a bullet for thru and thru penitration on African game.

Matt Zietlow of Eureka, NV uses a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70, I use a Remington Rolling Block in 45-90 and either one of our Single Shot rifles can handle anything on 4 legs.

But even if I did use a lever action 45-70.... I wouldn't be undergunned with Marshall's Pile Driver bullets.


Quote:
There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common-sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However such an increase in bullet weight would require faster twist barrels and would certainly bring howls of protest from those who purchased 458 Magnums previously, since those guns would require rebarreling in order to accommodate the heavier bullets. As a consequence of this, I don't think any of us should hold our breaths waiting for that kind of change to occur.

Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

Randy Garrett
www.GarrettCartridges.com

Last edited by Montanan; 10-13-2005 at 05:20 AM.
  #12  
Old 10-12-2005, 07:26 PM
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I hear a lot on these forums about the superior penetration of heavy 45-70 bullets in wet newspaper, but I still wonder if that's not the whole story. One article I read showed that with different media, the faster African calibers did indeed out-penetrate the slower rounds with comparable bullets. I remember reading that one of the reasons the .458 Lott came into being was that a number of .458 mags weren't achieving their advertised velocities, especially in the hot African climate where powder clumping was a problem. As a result, there were problems with the round not stopping elephants and the like, and wounding them. That wouldn't seem to be a problem if slower velocities resulted in superior penetration.

If these high energy rounds aren't penetrating as far, then all that extra energy is dumping somewhere, and perhaps that "energy dump", coupled with decent penetration, is more effective than just penetration alone at stopping something fierce. I love my 45-90 as much as anyone, and I certainly don't feel undergunned against much of anything, but I'm still quite skeptical that it's a better Cape Buffalo/Elephant/Rhino stopper than a .458 Lott. My engineering background says something isn't adding up with the physics when doubling or tripling the energy doesn't have a significant effect on the terminal ballistics. Of course, the obvious and difficult question is how do you accurately duplicate the effects on wild game? I'll continue to read these threads with interest to see what evidences are presented. I would happily volunteer for a funded African safari with my 45-90 and a .458 Lott in search of the truth ...
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  #13  
Old 10-12-2005, 09:08 PM
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Red Pepper

Good post. I have a physics background also and I own a 45/70. The physics of the situation dictates that rounds such as the 458 lott and 458 Win Mag should out-perform the 45/70. There is obviously more than physics involved though, when shooting dangerous game.

I think a lot of the hoopla regarding the 45/70 and dangerous game has originated from the Vince Lupo safaris, and personally I believe this is a direct result of the high quality and penetration potential of Mr. Garrett's cartridges. They are no doubt a superb penetration round and I would feel very comfortable unleashing them at 99% of the animals that walk the Earth.

The problem lies in the fact that sheer penetration is not what kills and/or instantly knocks down an animal. I think there is something to do with energy transfer from bullet to animal, which not many people seem to mention. There has to be some type of balance here, where both penetration and energy transfer and wound channel all contribute to killing and knockdown power. I don't think there is a concrete answer. But...isn't that the beauty of the whole discussion? It's a wonderful thing that we have hundreds of calibers to choose from...life would be boring if we only had a couple calibers and a couple cartridges to choose from, wouldn't it?
  #14  
Old 10-13-2005, 10:11 AM
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I've no doubt that the .45-70 can hold its own on the dark continent. Having said that, I wouldn't make the claim that the .45-70 is a better cartridge than the traditional proven African loads (.416 Rigby, .458W, .458 Lott, etc.). It would be interesting to see the results of a comprehensive, well controlled experiment with a wide range of media and cartridges involved. The question of how impulse and the transfer of kinetic energy affects an animal is a difficult nut to crack though, and much more speculative. No doubt, PETA would be thrilled to see a comprehensive experiment for that one, eh ? And Red Pepper, I'd happily join you in that quest for truth !
  #15  
Old 10-13-2005, 02:46 PM
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Some more interesting reading on the subject:

.458 mag problems:
http://www.african-hunter.com/WhatsWrong.htm

.458 bullet tests:
http://www.african-hunter.com/solids_vs__mono.htm


Just a few observations/thoughts:

I fully believe that a 45-70 or similar will easily kill any animal on earth, and that the proper bullets will provide astounding penetration. The question in my mind is: will it stop an enraged and potentially deadly 4-footed beast as surely as a higher-velocity African stomper? Which is more important: pure penetration, or energy transfer, or some combination?

It seems that most of the tests showing superior penetration by relatively low velocity, heavy lead projectiles use wet newspaper as the medium. On the other hand, tests with a mixed variety of materials lined up, or with more brittle materials (wood, bone, etc.) appear to show superior penetration by the more powerful (higher velocity) African rounds. I have a suspicion that a couple of factors are at work here (I am assuming the veracity of all the tests I’ve read):

1. At relatively low speeds (not much over the speed of sound), in a largely liquid medium (wet newspapers), bullet deformation is minimized and the shock wave is relatively small. Consequently, the bullet travels through the medium with minimal hindrance and enhanced penetration. Damage to the surrounding medium is minimal. In my experience, water jugs shot with big, slow rounds end up with just a big hole leaking water out of the jug, and essentially undamaged bullets.

2. At higher velocities into a wet newspaper medium, bullet deformation is a greater possibility, but even more important is the presence of a substantial shock wave. The energy transferred into that shock wave reduces projectile penetration, but creates potentially devastating destruction on the surrounding matter (perhaps not as much in newspaper as would be the case with tissue). Water jugs shot with high velocity rounds typically show dramatic and explosive destruction of the jug, and significantly deformed bullets.

3. With brittle materials, energy transfer into the material is more straightforward, and the higher velocity rounds penetrate further. Sort of a “hammer” effect.

Since bullets used against dangerous game typically come up against skin, muscle tissue, bone, fluids, and open air spaces, I doubt that a single-medium test is a sufficient to declare one cartridge/bullet combination to be superior to another, especially when only one factor (penetration, in this case) is analyzed.
My conclusions are that big, relatively slow rounds such as the 45-70 will indeed penetrate a Cape Buffalo or two, but the energy transfer may be relatively little. Death may come a little slower than desired ;-). Higher velocity, higher energy rounds will still penetrate deeply, but transfer more energy (slowing the travel of the beast), and cause more internal damage. Death should be somewhat quicker, with greater debilitation.

All this is from theory and test observation – I certainly don’t have first-hand experience with African game or Grizzly bears. Maybe this is justification to pick up that Ruger Magnum rifle in .458 Lott that keeps calling my name when I walk into my local Gander Mountain. That, along with the purchase of my 45-90 High Wall, could be justified in the name of research... If nothing else, it’s been fun contributing to the discussion and perhaps confusing matters even further.

As a side note, I’ve read in other threads that our military personnel are finding their short barreled M-4’s are notably less lethal than the standard-length barreled M-16’s. It seems that at the reduced velocity levels generated by the shorter barrels, the bullets run through the “target”, producing a .22 size hole, but without the explosive shock that causes a .223 to perform well beyond its size as an anti-personnel weapon. Superior penetration at lower velocity, but less terminal performance? Interesting possibility.
  #16  
Old 10-15-2005, 06:04 AM
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While I've not hunted Africa's Big 5, I'll share some facts with you.

Leopards rarely exceed 175 lbs. Although widely known for their cunning and deadly attacks, their hides are not armor-plated. I'm certain your 45-70 would perform quite well.

Lions are built solidly, as are our North American elk and moose. Thick hides with heavy bones. I'm certain your 45-70 would perform quite well.

Eleanor O'Conner downed a large bull elephant in the early 1960's using a 30-06 and custom made bullets. The bullets were formed on a lathe from solid bronze bar stock, then heat treated/tempered with a torch and quench tank. These bullets did not deform and produced the desired deep penetration and deadly results. I'm certain your 45-70 would perform quite well with proper bullets. As stated in previous comments, it appears you have researched various hunting bullets. Thank you for sharing.

I've forgotten his name, but the Michigan man who developed Magna-Porting killed all of the Big 5 with a 454 Casull revolver and proper bullets. Although somewhat of a publicity and marketing stunt, my point is that a well placed big bore bullet is deadly indeed.

Good hunting to you.
TR
  #17  
Old 10-23-2005, 09:26 PM
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TR, I believe that would be Larry Kelly. Promotional stunt maybe, but a heavy well-made bullet placed properly is what it's all about. I have a Stainless .45/70 Guide Gun, and I wouldn't feel under-gunned with it loaded with Hammerheads for ANYTHING. If IT won't work with a well-placed round, call in the artillery! Lee.
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  #18  
Old 10-27-2005, 07:43 PM
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Brian Pearce, of Rifle Magazine, took a .45-70 to Africa and also killed two buff with one shot (Garrett). He had a .375 as well, and shot a black mamba with it, but I don't know that he used it for big game.
  #19  
Old 11-03-2005, 07:50 AM
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The concept that high speed bullets penetrate less because the slow down faster is seriously flawed. It is equivalent to the old urban myth that hot water freezes faster because it loses heat faster.

It is not just a matter of how fast one loses heat/velocity it is also a matter of how far one has to go.

Somewhere in its penetration a high velocity bullet slows to the initial velocity of the slower bullet. If velocity is the issue once the faster bullet has slowed to that point its remaining penetration should be the same as the penetration of the bullet that started at the lower speed. Its total penetration would be equal to that distance PLUS whatever distance it had already penetrated up to the point.

It may be that faster bullets often penetrate less than slower bullets but it is not because of velocity. It may be because high velocities induce excessive bullet deformation, bullet failure, etc. but it is not because of velocity.
  #20  
Old 11-03-2005, 12:48 PM
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Isn't a Longtime favorite anti-Leopard weapon is a 12Ga Shotgun loaded with Buckshot?


Quote:
Originally Posted by T.R.
While I've not hunted Africa's Big 5, I'll share some facts with you.

Leopards rarely exceed 175 lbs. Although widely known for their cunning and deadly attacks, their hides are not armor-plated. I'm certain your 45-70 would perform quite well.
I've forgotten his name, but the Michigan man who developed Magna-Porting...
Good hunting to you.
TR
That would be Larry Kelly.

My thought is that a fast moving bullet with it's higher RPM
is more likely to keyhole inside the target and a bullet that's
moving broadside to it's direction of travel will inde
ed slow down faster.

Remember that the cartridges that have a reputation for "brush busting" have one thing in common, and no, it isn't short blunt bullets, it's that the bullets used need a slower twist rate and thus are spinning at a lower rpm.

I doubt that there is anythign other than physics to explain the phenomena, if physics as most people perceive it
does not explain what is happening it's the perception that
is flawed, not the physics.

AD

Last edited by AllanD; 11-03-2005 at 12:53 PM. Reason: typo correction
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