Can the 45/70 take all of the BIG 5 or 6 of AFRICA cleanly? Why do alot of AFRICAN hunters shun the 45/70? What about GRIZ/ KODIAC .MOOSE etc...
Not all PHs will even let you use a 45/70 on most of the Big 5Can it? Yes...Is there a better choice? Absolutely.
Taylor speaks of certain poachers taking elephant with a 7mm Mauser in his book "Pondoro." Doesn't mean a 7mm Mauser is a good elephant rifle.
I would feel completely comfortable with my 45/70 loaded properly against most anything that walks...except elephant, rhino, and maybe cape buffalo...give me a 375 H&H or larger for those anyday...
gringo_loco said:Matt, what would you think about Marshall's 525 gr .45-70 Pile Driver or his 425 gr Pile Driver Jr. for African game? I'm with you on this one, not that I'll ever get a shot at an African safari, but I would take the .45-70 in a heartbeat for it. I know the Pile Driver gets some outstanding penetration. However, I do not know what kind of trajectory folks are seeing with it. Guess I'll have to purchase a .45-70 one of these days and find out for myself!
There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.
Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common-sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.
Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.
What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However such an increase in bullet weight would require faster twist barrels and would certainly bring howls of protest from those who purchased 458 Magnums previously, since those guns would require rebarreling in order to accommodate the heavier bullets. As a consequence of this, I don't think any of us should hold our breaths waiting for that kind of change to occur.
Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.
Randy Garrett
www.GarrettCartridges.com
I kinda feel like you do, you can double the speed to a bullet that already flies clean through an animal, but will it kill any better? After all, any energy that's left in that bullet after exiting is wasted. That's why when people ask about the 45-70 I always bring up the fact that the old time buffalo hunters were using 405gr cast at 1400fps and getting "fly through" on those big buffs. Now modern 405gr loads run over 2000fps?Red Pepper
Good post. I have a physics background also and I own a 45/70. The physics of the situation dictates that rounds such as the 458 lott and 458 Win Mag should out-perform the 45/70. There is obviously more than physics involved though, when shooting dangerous game.
I think a lot of the hoopla regarding the 45/70 and dangerous game has originated from the Vince Lupo safaris, and personally I believe this is a direct result of the high quality and penetration potential of Mr. Garrett's cartridges. They are no doubt a superb penetration round and I would feel very comfortable unleashing them at 99% of the animals that walk the Earth.
The problem lies in the fact that sheer penetration is not what kills and/or instantly knocks down an animal. I think there is something to do with energy transfer from bullet to animal, which not many people seem to mention. There has to be some type of balance here, where both penetration and energy transfer and wound channel all contribute to killing and knockdown power. I don't think there is a concrete answer. But...isn't that the beauty of the whole discussion? It's a wonderful thing that we have hundreds of calibers to choose from...life would be boring if we only had a couple calibers and a couple cartridges to choose from, wouldn't it?
That would be Larry Kelly.T.R. said:While I've not hunted Africa's Big 5, I'll share some facts with you.
Leopards rarely exceed 175 lbs. Although widely known for their cunning and deadly attacks, their hides are not armor-plated. I'm certain your 45-70 would perform quite well.
I've forgotten his name, but the Michigan man who developed Magna-Porting...
Good hunting to you.
TR
DOGMAN said:Can the 45/70 take all of the BIG 5 or 6 of AFRICA cleanly? Why do alot of AFRICAN hunters shun the 45/70? What about GRIZ/ KODIAC .MOOSE etc...
The energy calculation used by so many for comparing cartridges is an abstraction; velocity squared is not real and places greater emphasis on velocity than mass. Therefore, momentum should be a better indicator of relative power.hpdrifter said:energy is velocity SQUARED times mass.
momentum is velocity times mass.