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  #61  
Old 04-01-2011, 04:01 AM
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NonPCnraRN; I agree with what you say. I modified a 444 that will now shoot Marshalls 405 grain bullet at: (my accuracy load = 2160 fps, 4197 ft lbs, Taylor KO 54, Thorniley SP 237, which puts my KO about half way between the 450-400 Nitro Express/404 Jeffery, and the 416 Rigby). With the Marlin leverguns quick handling and cycling capabilities, I would not be fearful of facing anything that walks. For anything in North America, and just about everything in Africa, I have no doubt that Marshalls 405 would get er done. The only place I would make a change in the type of bullet I would use, would be with the big cats (an expanding), or quite possibly elephant (a solid), but even with the later I "think" that Marshalls bullet would have enough to "stun" (with a brain shot) an elephant (about 4000 ft lbs is the minimum there), so a "killing" shot could be made. If the shot was a "vitals" area shot, I think that Marshalls bullet would do just fine.....he makes one very tough bullet!!! Compare the North American Brown or grizzly bears to all game world wide, and the 45-70 with either type of bullet will get the job done easily...within its "range" with solid or cast. I read an article a couple of years ago about a fella that hunts Browns and Grizzlys with a flintlock muzzle loader (his back up handgun is a flintlock as well), and other than the fact that I think he is absolutely CRAZY..........he does take bear with that rifle, and the ballistics pale in comparison to the mighty 45-70.

You speak of double rifles....I found a company in Europe that makes doubles in 444, and I think there are a few made in 45-70 as well. They are cheap in comparison to the big name doubles at about 2000 dollars (U.S.), and, a European fella I know on another forum has one in 444. He says that his is regulated properly and is very accurate, so, decent doubles are out there to be had for a modest price......
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  #62  
Old 04-01-2011, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Griz View Post
I don't know guys. Ever see the video of the lion charge? The client and a couple of "professionals" banging away at a full charge. The lion got thru all that "professional" lead and knocked one of the shooters to the ground. I think he was finally killed going away. There were LOTS of shots fired. From professional guides with professional guns and professional ammo. Man O man was it ever fast. Anyone around here remember that video?

That cat definately needed more than 2 rounds...

just saying

Grizz
dsYup, I saw it. It was a "hair-raising episode." Just goes to prove that there are exceptions to every case. If he's still coming, shoot until he stops!!
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  #63  
Old 04-01-2011, 10:48 PM
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I think this is the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CNgwZgoKFc

If you want to see a crazy man, check this guy out kicking dirt at a hippo to make it mad so it will charge. This guy hunts for the rush, pay attention at the slow-mo portion, those double rifles sure hit hard to make blood shoot out the nostrils like that. http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/919180/

Last edited by 243dave; 04-01-2011 at 11:25 PM.
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  #64  
Old 04-02-2011, 05:03 AM
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..............and that is why they call wild animals "wild"...because they are!

The lion clip that you showed is the one I saw...what an awesome animal!....Kind of made fools of the "hunters"!!! From the way it looked in the video, the first hunter that fired on the charging lion had all his shots going high. When an animal is comming at you at speed, you have to aim a bit low so the animal runs into the trajectory of the bullet, or crouch to shoot a flatter trajectory........and, the hippo episode shows "exactly" what a double rifle in a large bore is good for....point blank dangerous game "stopping" in thick cover. The fella doing the shooting made a big mistake though. After he took his first shot, he "paused"....the double allows for a near instantaneous second shot, so, he kind of negated the premise of using a double rifle! For most of us any repeating arm is just fine to hunt with, but, for anything in the thick and up close, there is nothing like a double.....and, about two quick shots is all you will have time for anyway. Great videos 243 Dave...Thanks!
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  #65  
Old 04-02-2011, 11:27 AM
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The most awesome thing about the lion charge is that none of the charge-ees got shot. probably some dead animals a mile downrange tho.

that video still makes me feel like taking a shower... why is that?
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  #66  
Old 04-02-2011, 12:17 PM
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shower?...........all the lead and powder dust in the air?
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  #67  
Old 04-02-2011, 01:22 PM
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I'm not sure what would have stopped that lion, other than the obvious center head shot just before he skidded into the kneeling hunter. If that shot hadn't happend, the video would have been considerably bloodier. You can actually see the impact of the bullet that turns out the lights for the lion. Central nervous system hit.
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  #68  
Old 04-03-2011, 02:53 AM
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I did see that video. And it must have been a hair raiser. There is a similar one with a leopard, except the leopard made it through the shower and took a good bite out of one of the hunters.

As far a "appropriate" goes. IF something is the only thing that is available then be definition it's appropriate. The African bushmen try to kill elephants and lions with sticks and spears. Does that mean we should do the same just because the animals aren't any bigger? That's a silly idea. Step back and think for a second. There is a considerable difference between a 1000 pound bear and a "intelligent" elephant (a species that has a natural dislike for humans) that can weigh more than a fully loaded F250 ford pick up truck. Just because some Brits and Germans were using anemic BP and cordite cartridges doesn't mean that it's the best option nowadays. The 458 win mag is the most popular big game cartridge is Africa for a reason. It does a better job. And it's losing ground quite rapidly to the Lott because even the 458 win is considered to be too anemic for the task at times.

If a 45-70 was perfectly fine, wouldn't be a bit more popular in Africa for elephant? People aren't stupid. Inexperienced, ignorant, wishful. Yes. But not stupid.

A 45-70 is fine for bear. And lion as well, I would presume. But a one gun hunter in Africa needs to be prepared for much larger animals than lions and leopards. And the African hunter doesn't care about NA bears. You can share a stream with a bear. Good luck sharing space with a lion or an elephant. Apex animals like elephants are the real deal. Bears will share space. To an elephant you are an intrusion and therefore deserve death.

Not to totally highjack this thread, but did anyone else see that episode of Mythbusters where the elephants actually avoided the mouse!!!!

Last edited by GMFWoodchuck; 04-03-2011 at 03:39 AM.
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  #69  
Old 04-03-2011, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by GMFWoodchuck View Post
I did see that video. And it must have been a hair raiser. There is a similar one with a leopard, except the leopard made it through the shower and took a good bite out of one of the hunters.

As far a "appropriate" goes. IF something is the only thing that is available then be definition it's appropriate. The African bushmen try to kill elephants and lions with sticks and spears. Does that mean we should do the same just because the animals aren't any bigger? That's a silly idea. Step back and think for a second. There is a considerable difference between a 1000 pound bear and a "intelligent" elephant (a species that has a natural dislike for humans) that can weigh more than a fully loaded F250 ford pick up truck. Just because some Brits and Germans were using anemic BP and cordite cartridges doesn't mean that it's the best option nowadays. The 458 win mag is the most popular big game cartridge is Africa for a reason. It does a better job. And it's losing ground quite rapidly to the Lott because even the 458 win is considered to be too anemic for the task at times.

If a 45-70 was perfectly fine, wouldn't be a bit more popular in Africa for elephant? People aren't stupid.

A 45-70 is fine for bear. And lion as well, I would presume. But a one gun hunter in Africa needs to be prepared for much larger animals than lions and leopards. And the African hunter doesn't care about NA bears. You can share a stream with a bear. Good luck sharing space with a lion or an elephant. Apex animals like elephants are the real deal. Bears will share space. To an elephant you are an intrusion and therefore deserve death.

Not to totally highjack this thread, but did anyone else see that episode of Mythbusters where the elephants actually avoided the mouse!!!!
"Appropriate" is whatever you have that will do the job. If spears, knives, rocks, the bow and arrow, BP firearms, or modern day rounds will do the job, or, have done the job, then reason/logic tells us that they are all "appropriate" for the task.........some just perform better than others. We do have better choices today, and that is why we dont use spears....and, that is why the 45-70 is not a popular African large game cartridge. For general African "hunting" including large dangerous game, 4000 ft lbs is considered to be the standard.........for LDG, on the "attack", close up, and in thick cover, 5000 ft lbs is considered to be the standard. Any cartridge that meets those requirements under those conditions will get the job done with a proper bullet for the task........the rest is left up to the hunter.

The 458 was displaced (kinda) by the Lott, because the Lott is a "safe" cartridge. All the Lott is, is a "longer" (by .300) 458. The 458 has had issues because it relies on a drastically compressed powder charge to meet its advertised ballistics. A compressed powder charge will "cake" or solidify, and not detonate, or, poorly/partially detonate when fired. The 458 also had high pressure problems because of its compressed charge... in the heat and intense direct sunlight of Africa, causing bolt lock up and other high pressure issues. The Lott (designed by Jack Lott), was his answer to the failures of "his" 458 Winchester Magnum. He was severely injured (almost died), by a Caper when his 458 falied to discharge as the buff charged him, due to the above mentioned "caked powder issue" with the 458 Win. The Lott is not more powerful than the .458...they both produce about the same ballistic numbers (a 500 at 2150 )....The Lott does that with an uncompressed charge at lower pressures, and without all the issues of the 458. By the way, over the years, the 458's problems have been pretty well resolved ( "double based", cool burning, low pressure powders, etc). Today, both cartridges will exceed thier "advertised ballistics", but, even in thier original loadings, producing over 5000 ft lbs, whats the need? They are special purpose cartridges designed for one task only, and even for the African large game hunter, there are more practical (and appropriate) choices. The 375 H&H Magnum is most likely the most popular, most used, and most successful all around large game cartridge the world has ever, or will ever see. Its ballistics (at around 4000 ft lbs), come no where close to some of the shoulder cannons that are produced today....but, the 375 H&H does what its supposed to do, and will most likely never be displaced by any other cartridge. The 45-70's lenght of service, and performance, is historically documented. Folks like Lupo just keep adding the the illustrious histoy of this old cartridge, and I am sure that as time goes on its popularity will never decrease. As future technologies are applied to older cartridges, we will all be seeing cartridges that dont seem to be "appropriate" for certain tasks, possibly become the standard for tasks that we never thought would be possible....this is actually taking place to some degree now.

In Africa, elephants live hand in hand with the locals, and it is common to see farmers in thier fields with elephants no more than a few yards away, or, people walking down roads with elephants following behind or leading the way. I do not consider wild elephants to be human haters, or in most cases agressive. Yes, there are occasional "raiders" that must be dispatched, or, an elephant that becomes agressive, but, for the most part they are a docile "leave me alone and I will leave you alone" type of animal. Most large African game, unless hungry, threatened, wounded, or sick, would much rather keep thier distance from man..........but, there are the few...and, you just never know!...so, you just dont trust any of them!! The same applies to bears. What most consider a docile bear...the black, accounts for more attacks on humans that its larger cousins, the Brown, Grizzly, or Polar. I do not trust any wild animal...period, and I would not feel at ease sharing a stream with a bear...you could be his fishing buddy one minute, and be his dinner the next.

Be all this as it may....I have never been a fan of the 45-70 (dont, and probably will never own one) in a lever gun, but, I have great respect for its history and modern performance. It is a legendary cartridge, that I am sure will continue "making history" in years to come.
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Last edited by Flat Top; 04-03-2011 at 05:34 AM.
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  #70  
Old 04-03-2011, 08:16 AM
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I'm gonna go with this guy's experience:

Quote:
The PH slowly slid up alongside of me and tapped his finger to the bridge of his nose between his eyes several times. There was no doubt about what he wanted me to do. Nail the big bull between the eyes as his head was down and his attention was on eating. I eased the hammer back from half cock to the full back position and gently squeezed the trigger when the crosshairs of my scope held firmly on a spot between the Hippo's eyes. CLICK! The loudest click I had ever heard in my life sent waves of shivers down my spine. My mind went into "overdrive" trying to analyze what had happened. The stunned look on my PH's face must have mirrored my own as I saw his huge double rifle begin to move up towards his shoulder. But my mind had already told me that I had NOT pushed off the cross bolt safety and the hammer had slammed home on the safety bar. My fingers had already pulled the hammer back and released the safety button and had realigned the rifle so that I now again could take up my sight picture. Only this time the bull was looking straight at me and appeared to be coiling to spring forward into a full charge. But my [bullet] had already left the barrel hitting the Hippo perfectly between the eyes and dropping him in his own footprints. He no sooner hit the ground than I slammed another 540gr Hammerhead bullet two inches to the left and two inches above the first bullets impact hole. The whole chilling event seemed like hours to me but in reality took seconds.
Vince Lupo taking the single most dangereous animal in Africa from 15 feet. Works for him. Works for me.

Randy Garrett, the guy who made the ammo Lupo uses, says that it OUT-PENETRATES the 458 Win Mag. Maybe that helped steel Lupo's nerves? Nah..... LOL

Last edited by Griz; 04-03-2011 at 08:22 AM.
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  #71  
Old 04-03-2011, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Griz View Post
I'm gonna go with this guy's experience:



Vince Lupo taking the single most dangereous animal in Africa from 15 feet. Works for him. Works for me.

Randy Garrett, the guy who made the ammo Lupo uses, says that it OUT-PENETRATES the 458 Win Mag. Maybe that helped steel Lupo's nerves? Nah..... LOL
Good point for the 45-70, good point against the cross bolt safty!
Terry
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  #72  
Old 04-03-2011, 11:15 AM
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OK...OK!!!! So, ol' Vince is a bit forgetfull from time to time...arent we all?

Garrets load produces about 2900 ft lbs, and rates a Taylor KO of 55, and a Thorniley SP of 235. As a comparison, my Safari Grade 444 with my accuracy load (405 at 2160) produces about 4200 ft lbs with a Taylor KO of 54, and a Thorniley SP of 237.............The 458 Win Mag in its loading of a 500 at 2150 produces about 5133 ft lbs, a Taylor KO of 70, and a Thorniley SP of 302...................Now, lets talk about "power". The 577 T-Rex shoots a 750 grain bullet at 2480 fps, and developes 10,240 ft lbs. It rates a Taylor KO of 155, and a Thorniley SP of 610!!!! There is no animal on the face of this earth that requires this kind of power under any circumstance! The "mine is bigger than yours is" mentality in high gear. The T-Rex is totally unsuited for taking game...a 15ound rifle, that cannot be carried by a hunter all day long, or, controlled for a fast second shot if need be, costs more than ten best grade Purdy's, and uses almost a 100 grains more powder than most African big game cartridges is useless as a "hunting" arm. If Lupo ( and many, many others) can take large game cleanly with less power in a more practical rifle, I say go for it! Hunting is supposed to be "challenging"...what is the challenge in shooting something with a hand held howitzer. The only place for these "power monsters" is as a follow up rifle for wounded game in thick cover, and they are sure as heck not appropriate fro anything else.

Hats of to Lupo...the 45-70....and Randy Garrett. The "point" has been proven!
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  #73  
Old 04-03-2011, 12:19 PM
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Well, why carry 2 firearms with you to the "jungle" when you could have had one that would have done the job in the first place? Why wound an animal with a "sub-standard" firearm? If a 460 weatherby or a 577 T-Rex is what's needed to take down a dangerous animal in Africa, then wouldn't it be fair to the animal to have been shot with one in the first place and killed on the first shot?

Back to bear. It makes little difference as to whether you use hardcast or "solid" bullets. Neither will deform so there is little difference in how they perform out of a 45-70.
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  #74  
Old 04-03-2011, 12:59 PM
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GMF; You are 100% correct about solid versus hardcast for the big bears...no disagreement there! When folks hunt Africa, they use a "hunting" rifle. Normally a rifle in the 375/ 400 class, sometimes larger, but, it is normally a light rifle, about 8 1/2 to 10 1/2 pounds (depends on the cartridge...recoill, etc). This is what they actually hunt with, and these rifles bring down game easily nine times out of ten, if the hunter does his part. These huge, heavy, overpowered 577's 600's and 700's are used only when an animal is wounded and in thick cover, and must be dispatched....but, as far as full time hunting weapons, they are really unsuitable for the task....reason being: They are heavy....carry a 15 to 25 pound rifle all day long, and then try to take a shot at a game animal.....heck, your worn out before the action starts....this is why "porters" carry the back up rifle when folks hunt Africa for big game. Then, because of the recoil of the big boomers, getting a fast second shot if need be is a real trick...a double rifle is most suitable for the task, but, it is still a feat to accomplish. The "two gun battery" has always been standard issue for African large game hunting and is still used today...a hunting rifle for hunting, and a "back up" rifle (these days normally in the hands of the PH) for times when things get out of hand.....also, a 460 Weatherby, 577 T-Rex, 600 or 700 Nitro are not "needed" to bring down African game..........the 400's have historically been most popular all around and big game cartridges that are used in Africa, and nothing more is really needed..............and, by the way, regardless of what cartridge is being used, one shot kills on large African dangerous game animals are not an every day occurance.
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  #75  
Old 04-03-2011, 03:31 PM
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Most hunters have no hope of shooting a .458 Win Mag with any accuracy whatsoever. I know; I've owned one, and it belts the living daylights out of the shooter in a standard weight rifle. I might own another some day, but it will be a good 3 or 4 or 5 pounds heavier for certain. The claims of it being "wimpy" which get repeated in the gun press are somewhat incomprehensible and amusing at the same time..... either that, or every gunwriter who has ever touched on the subject is recoil-proof. But I digress.

To suggest that a .458 Lott or .460 WBY will be in improvement is along the same lines as starting out a new shooter with a .44 mag and full power loadings, to my way of thinking. It isn't going to be pretty. I will go out on a limb and say once you get more recoil than a .338 Win Mag, it is going to be a rare shooter indeed who will do well. Experienced or not!

The PH, we'll assume, has had the practice to effectively use whatever they are carrying. To blindly claim that one solution or another is universally "better" is disingenuous and ignores reality.
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  #76  
Old 04-03-2011, 08:05 PM
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.338s recoil? not so much... at least mine never bothered me

Grizz
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