The web's most comprehensive user-interactive handloading database! Find the loading data created by handloaders, for handloaders, post your pet loads, or access and develop your own online loading database with our LoadNotes personal handloading database software. This feature, unique in its concept and intuitive in it's data presentation is fast to access, superbly organized and comprehensive in scope.Our online forums for questions and answers on many shooting and outdoor related topics. A dynamic, active, and well-informed resource for your enjoyment and interaction. Our most used resource on this website! Come share the experience with us!
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Leverguns > Big-Bore Lever Guns
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-02-2009, 07:40 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 156
Best 45/70 bullet and loads for 22" Microgroove


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


I just got a microgroove with a 22" barrel. I got the 45-70 to shoot heavy bullets...why else own one? I will be putting a Williams FP peep sight on it. The 70's models are already drilled on the receiver. I need to be able to shoot 200 yards in clear cuts for black bear. So velocity at the point of impact should not be an issue. It is just getting it there on target that is hard. So I want as little trajectory as possible. That mean pushing bullets hard. Faster they go, the less they drop at a given range. I have a 338 win mag and it has a point black range of 250 yards, but I have become fond of lever guns. You guys wont be able to understand why

What bullets and velocity should I expect the microgroove gun to shoot well? Is there a magic velocity that it tends to perform well at? Accuracy is more important that velocity. velocity is worthless at long distances if it is not accurate.

Ballistically, a 425 grain bullet pushed @ 1,500 fps would give reasonable trajectory out to 250 yards. Is this in the realm of reality?
__________________
Only money stands between me and my next gun.

Last edited by joecool911; 09-02-2009 at 07:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-02-2009, 08:56 AM
jackfish's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 668
For black bear a 405 grain bullet is entirely adequate. I'd look at a Cast Performance 405 grain WLNGC or Beartooth 405 grain LFNGC pushed 1800-2000 fps. The .459" Cast Performance and .460" Beartooths shoot well out of my Microgroove 1895.
__________________
You learn something new everyday whether you want to or not.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-02-2009, 03:19 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 69
First of all, in reference to your other thread, microgroove has nothing to do with whether or not the bullets will be stable. That is a function of the rifling twist. Marlins are 1-20" so no problem with stability with even 500gr bullets.

If you take a good look at the rifling, you'll notice that the lands aren't terribly narrow, and the grooves aren't all that shallow, so I'm not apt to call it microgroove. My 1894C 357mag has shallower rifling with narrower lands, but shoots as well as I can hold it with 185gr cast gc at 1800fps. Don't look for that load in a manual....the fact that it works so well (sub 2" at 100 yards with receiver sight) sort of undoes the myth about microgroove and cast bullets anyway.

The Speer manual #10 listed 56gr H322 in WW cases with Speer 400gr JFN for 1886fps from a 22" Marlin barrel. That is a compressed load, and will not fit into RP or other cases with less capacity than WW. That load shot very accurately from my 1978 vintage 1895.

How much recoil can you handle? With no recoil pad on that straight grip, you'll have a headache inside of 10 shots with the load mentioned above. I resorted to a Pachmayr Decelerator.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-03-2009, 12:49 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 25
After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first ¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451 and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC from White Label Lube. The next day the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 57 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. I’ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection? I have taken two deer, and half a dozen or so coyotes with this gun. Maybe someday I will have a chance to go hog hunting.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-03-2009, 07:49 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by excess650 View Post
First of all, in reference to your other thread, microgroove has nothing to do with whether or not the bullets will be stable. That is a function of the rifling twist. Marlins are 1-20" so no problem with stability with even 500gr bullets.

If you take a good look at the rifling, you'll notice that the lands aren't terribly narrow, and the grooves aren't all that shallow, so I'm not apt to call it microgroove. My 1894C 357mag has shallower rifling with narrower lands, but shoots as well as I can hold it with 185gr cast gc at 1800fps. Don't look for that load in a manual....the fact that it works so well (sub 2" at 100 yards with receiver sight) sort of undoes the myth about microgroove and cast bullets anyway.

The Speer manual #10 listed 56gr H322 in WW cases with Speer 400gr JFN for 1886fps from a 22" Marlin barrel. That is a compressed load, and will not fit into RP or other cases with less capacity than WW. That load shot very accurately from my 1978 vintage 1895.

How much recoil can you handle? With no recoil pad on that straight grip, you'll have a headache inside of 10 shots with the load mentioned above. I resorted to a Pachmayr Decelerator.
OK, so what rifling twist should I have?
__________________
Only money stands between me and my next gun.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-04-2009, 04:41 AM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,525
I think you missed the answer, it is in the 3rd sentence of excess650's response.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-04-2009, 06:44 AM
jackfish's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 668
A 425 grain Pile Driver Jr. at 1500 fps is not going to be an easy 250 yard proposition. Sighted in at about 3.1" high at 50 yards it yields a 7" Maximum Point Blank Range of 155 yards (no more than 3.5" high or low out to that range) and will be about 30 inches low at 250 yards.

A 405 grain Beartooth LFNGC at 1950 fps will more readily accommodate a 250 yard shot. Sighted in at about 2.5" high at 50 yards it yields a 7" Maximum Point Blank Range of 197 yards (no more than 3.5" high or low out to that range) and will be about 13.5 inches low at 250 yards. Hence, you could hold high and still on the animal to make a 250 yard shot.

While the urge to shoot heavy bullets may be strong, you have conflicting objectives that make achieving your goal difficult. A 405 grain is plenty heavy for black bear.
__________________
You learn something new everyday whether you want to or not.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-04-2009, 07:10 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfish View Post
A 425 grain Pile Driver Jr. at 1500 fps is not going to be an easy 250 yard proposition. Sighted in at about 3.1" high at 50 yards it yields a 7" Maximum Point Blank Range of 155 yards (no more than 3.5" high or low out to that range) and will be about 30 inches low at 250 yards.

A 405 grain Beartooth LFNGC at 1950 fps will more readily accommodate a 250 yard shot. Sighted in at about 2.5" high at 50 yards it yields a 7" Maximum Point Blank Range of 197 yards (no more than 3.5" high or low out to that range) and will be about 13.5 inches low at 250 yards. Hence, you could hold high and still on the animal to make a 250 yard shot.

While the urge to shoot heavy bullets may be strong, you have conflicting objectives that make achieving your goal difficult. A 405 grain is plenty heavy for black bear.
That was my thinking too. The PileDrivers are deep penetrating rounds for hunting large animals or for stopping dangerous ones (or both). They work best when they hit at somewhat slower speeds (1500 fps or so at the point of impact).

Comparing a 338 Win mag to a 45-70 is like comparing a sniper rifle to a close quarters rifle; they have different purposes.
__________________
.
.
. . . .
"They got us pinned down. How many of 'em are there?"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-11-2009, 02:44 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 62
excess650:

I'm a big fan of H-322 myself.

The load you listed from the old Speer manual of 56 grains of H-322 under a 400 grain bullet was never presure tested with any then known pressure testing devices.

These day's they list 55 grains of H-322 as max for the Ruger #1.

I've shot literally 100's of rounds of that same load dispatching countless numbers of 400 grain Speers down range. All shot through the my 22" micro-groved barreled 1895 Marlin. With never a lick of trouble.

I've also topped off that same load with 400 grain Lazer-casts as well.


Though just the same I should think it only prudent that I should make aware that 56 grains of H-322 under 400 grain bullets is beyond the excepted maximum. As the pressures reached are above the 43,500 lbs. mark which at present is deemed max.

That particular load of H-322 was my all time favorite (and still is). I could shoot 3 inch groups all day long at 100 yards, and could on occassion shoot 2 inchers. All done with the aid of a Williams peep-site.

Early on with my Marlin I used to scotch tape a quarter to a post at the 100 yard line at the range I used to go to. With a 3X9 scope on that same rifle shooting the same 400 grain Speer, and 56 grains of H-322 I could blow old George Washington's head plum off.

I used to carry one of those very quarters around with me, and when the opportunity presented it's self I'd say.

George Washington never told a lie,,,, RIGHT !! They might then agree by saying yes that's right.

Then I would say...Well George Washington told me here just the other day that a 45/70 can blow your head clean off.

Then I'd show them my quarter with Georges head missing.

One could easily say I was rather found of my Marlin 45/70 back then, and you know something else that's equally as important?? to this day I still am.

All and all, H-322 has provided the most consistant accuracy of any powder I ever tried in the Marlin. Some years after that realization I discovered AA 2015 BR With those two powders I could do all my reloading for the 45/70. Though thats not to say I'm limited to only two powders. IMR 3031 and RE #7 can always have a spot on my shelves any time.


It's all Good !!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-11-2009, 07:23 PM
Griz's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 784
I got 1963 fps from my guide gun with the BTB 425g piledriverjr. I don't know what the downrange ballistics would be with this velocity, but it was not a max pressure load. I used H322 and also like that powder for my 45/70s. My 10% reduced load of H322 produced 1775 fps. I can't help think one of these loads would have a pretty good down range result.

The question that comes to mind is why not just get closer to the bear? There are plenty of them killed with arrows at 20 yards, I bet the 45/70 would be sufficient at that range too.

However I have to stick my neck out and say that I would NOT under any circumstance shoot a 56g load of H322 under a 400+ grain bullet from a Marlin. From an 1886 or Ruger #1 or H&R single shot, sure, I'd try one. But not out of a Marlin.

Regards All

Grizz
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-12-2009, 06:01 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 69
#9 Yesterday, 02:44 PM
Lever Minded
Beartooth Regular Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 34

"excess650:

I'm a big fan of H-322 myself.

The load you listed from the old Speer manual of 56 grains of H-322 under a 400 grain bullet was never presure tested with any then known pressure testing devices."


If you read the manual you'll notice the reference "do not exceed 28,000 cup" for the Marlin 1895/Win1886 data. It also mentions the heavier Ruger #1 loads not exceeding 35,000cup, so were pressure tested. My Ruger #1 45-70 has a short throat like the Marlin, so the 400/405gr bullets couldn't be seated out further to increase powder charge. The Marlins chambered for 375win, 307win, 356win weren't made of different materials, or heat treated differently than the 1970s 1895s, but still chambered MUCH higher pressure rounds. What you also need to realize is that a straight-walled case like the 45-70 has little bolt thrust compared to a bottleneck design.

I no longer shoot those loads through my 1895 because of the brutal recoil rather than worries about pressure. If I were hunting big bears in close quarters, I would have no qualms using that rifle with the heavy loads. For 150# whitetails, it simply isn't necessary.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-14-2009, 02:33 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 62
I should futher clarify about the 56 grain load of H-322 as being my favorite.

While it was my favorite, and still is. That is should I be shooting for the moon mind you. But I haven't loaded any wheres near to those hieghts since back in 1993. As I didn't know any better.

These day's I may not any longer reach that elusive 2000+ fps. mark.

But please remember I was just a wee young lad only in my 40's back then.

I know better than that now.

He He He !!!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-14-2009, 02:51 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 62
excess650:

About the Ruger only loads with them being seated out a little further.

That Load was listed at 60 grains of H-322.

Speer talking about loads of 28,000 lbs. for Marlins, and 35,000 for Rugers was nothing more than educated guess work at best.

Speer now talks of 40,000 lbs. for the Marlin, and 50,000 lbs. for the Ruger.

These times,, Oh how they are a changing.

When the dust all settles you can bet your bottom dollar that the Marlin's are far tuffer than than anyone has a right to take them to. Should any find the need to go beyond the capabilities of a 45/70 Marlin, it's high time to getting a .458 magnum.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-22-2009, 09:06 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by joecool911 View Post
I just got a microgroove with a 22" barrel. I got the 45-70 to shoot heavy bullets...why else own one? I will be putting a Williams FP peep sight on it. The 70's models are already drilled on the receiver. I need to be able to shoot 200 yards in clear cuts for black bear. So velocity at the point of impact should not be an issue. It is just getting it there on target that is hard. So I want as little trajectory as possible. That mean pushing bullets hard. Faster they go, the less they drop at a given range. I have a 338 win mag and it has a point black range of 250 yards, but I have become fond of lever guns. You guys wont be able to understand why

What bullets and velocity should I expect the microgroove gun to shoot well? Is there a magic velocity that it tends to perform well at? Accuracy is more important that velocity. velocity is worthless at long distances if it is not accurate.

Ballistically, a 425 grain bullet pushed @ 1,500 fps would give reasonable trajectory out to 250 yards. Is this in the realm of reality?


For cast bullets , the biggest thing is .460" bullets or bigger , if they will chamber . Marlins like big bullets .

God bless
Wyr
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:19 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2