The web's most comprehensive user-interactive handloading database! Find the loading data created by handloaders, for handloaders, post your pet loads, or access and develop your own online loading database with our LoadNotes personal handloading database software. This feature, unique in its concept and intuitive in it's data presentation is fast to access, superbly organized and comprehensive in scope.Our online forums for questions and answers on many shooting and outdoor related topics. A dynamic, active, and well-informed resource for your enjoyment and interaction. Our most used resource on this website! Come share the experience with us!
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Leverguns > Big-Bore Lever Guns
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-10-2010, 02:12 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Caldwell, ID
Posts: 767
44 Mag in a 444


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


.

I ask this over on Marlin owners and got flamed by the naysayers.

Does or has anyone successfully used 44 mag ammo in a 444 Marlin? 44 mag ammo can only be loaded two at a time, one in the chamber and one in the mag. The 444 chamber is slightly larger in dia. and causes a small bulge in the case of a fired 44 mag. The 44 Mag bullet fired in the 444 must jump some distance to contact the rifling so accuracy in my gun is non-existent. However, a fellow shooter claims to be getting good 50 yard groups with 44 mags in his 444 (2 inches at 50 yards). I'm doing something wrong or he is full of BS.

.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-10-2010, 03:14 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Batchelor, La. 70715
Posts: 703
There is no pill to cure stupidity.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-10-2010, 03:29 PM
Dan 444's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Adirondack Mountains
Posts: 479
Why do you want to shoot 44 Mag in a Marlin 444? Don't do it. The triple-4 chamber is made for a longer cartridge.....you are going to create a powder charge "ring" just in front of the shorter 44mag case mouth in the chamber.....

Dan
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-10-2010, 04:06 PM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,522
.44-40 will match the chamber more closely, but still.... that is an awfully long jump to the rifling. It would seem an accident to get any sort of decent accuracy at all. Plus the point of impact must be way, way off?

I'm sure it's been done, and I'd do it if I had to. But I'd just as soon not get a face full of powder gas, either. As a handloader I can't stand to ruin brass on purpose.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-10-2010, 04:31 PM
Dan 444's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Adirondack Mountains
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
.44-40 will match the chamber more closely, but still.... that is an awfully long jump to the rifling. It would seem an accident to get any sort of decent accuracy at all. Plus the point of impact must be way, way off?

I'm sure it's been done, and I'd do it if I had to. But I'd just as soon not get a face full of powder gas, either. As a handloader I can't stand to ruin brass on purpose.
+1. Yes, I fully agree, Mike!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-11-2010, 03:14 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Caldwell, ID
Posts: 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan 444 View Post
Why do you want to shoot 44 Mag in a Marlin 444? Don't do it. The triple-4 chamber is made for a longer cartridge.....you are going to create a powder charge "ring" just in front of the shorter 44mag case mouth in the chamber.....

Dan
Why do I want to shoot 44s in a 444? Read my post, "However, a fellow shooter claims to be getting good 50 yard groups with 44 mags in his 444 (2 inches at 50 yards). I'm doing something wrong or he is full of BS."
Unlike some, I will not call him full of BS until I know one way or the other. As far as the carbon ring? I have cleaning tools. It does NOT ruin the cases, a simple resizing and they are back to original.

44-40 may fit the chamber better but the long jump would still destroy the accuracy. Also, I do not intend to waste good 44-40 ammo with that sort of monkey business. I have buckets of 44 mag ammo, more than I will EVER shoot.

25 yard groups were 12 to 14 inches! Including key holes.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-11-2010, 03:39 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,433
The 44Mag case head is .014" smaller than the 444 Marlin. If you expand brass that much, then size it back down, you may not destroy the case in one firing, but it won't take more than one or two shots to get the job done. If you ask me, you're definitely doing something "wrong" here. There are a handful of cartridges that can be fired in guns chambered for their big brother: Running 44Mag rounds through a 444 is NOT ONE OF THEM!

I'm still fuzzy on what you're trying to accomplish? You want to prove the other guy is lying about the accuracy he's getting? You want to shoot reduced recoil loads in your 444? Key hole marks on a target are typical of a bullet not stabilizing well; either the rate of twist in the 444 barrel, or the velocity from your 44Mag loads, are not spinning the bullet properly. The fact that they are likely entering the rifling at an absurd angle can't help much, either! I shudder to think what this is doing to the leade in the throat of your barrel...
__________________
Ask me about QDMA.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-11-2010, 04:47 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Caldwell, ID
Posts: 767
.

Now what exactly is it going to do to the leade? It cannot possibly slam as hard as a full 444 bullet. So stop shuddering.

So what am I trying to prove? Nothing! I have already proven it. I does NOT work. So the Marlin 444 goes down the road (yes, I will sell it for more than the $300 I paid) and I go on to other adventures.

Now, I know from first hand knowledge, Whereas most of you only know from hearsay or "conventional wisdom" and you know how reliable that is.

Thanks to Mike for the only sensible reply.



.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-11-2010, 04:55 AM
Griz's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 784
If you search there has been lots of past conversation about this. I think I recall that the 44 cases are NOT safe to reload after firing in the 444.

Are you using the exact same bullet and load as the guy that's getting good groups? That will have a bearing on the outcome.

Not a reason to get rid of a 444 in my mind. They're quite a different animal than the 44 mag.

Grizz
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-11-2010, 04:56 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,433
You've proven something that, as you put it, "conventional wisdom" already knew. Whew...glad you cleared that up for us.

If you are unclear as to how a bullet being misaligned when entering the throat of your chamber might be deleterious to accuracy, as well as causing potential damage, we cannot have a meaningful dialog. I wouldn't necessarily mention these little tests to the would-be buyer of your Marlin 444, else you might not get the money you're hoping to be paid.
__________________
Ask me about QDMA.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-11-2010, 05:13 AM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,522
It would seem to me that the best chance for accuracy would be to try the exact same bullets as reported. Perhaps some are more tolerant of the jump to the throat? I don't know...
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-18-2010, 01:59 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Meridian, ID
Posts: 121
Thumbs up

I agree with you 100%.
__________________
don44
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-20-2010, 06:26 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 503
Experimenting with ammunition in a firearm not designed for it is a sure way to get yourself on the list of honorees for the Darwin Award; those who take themselves out of the gene pool. You can come up with all kinds of reasons why you think it should work, but you won't have anyone to blame when it all goes wrong. I'll stick with 38 Specials in my 357 magnum.
__________________
Proving every day that old age and treachery can overcome youth and talent.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-21-2010, 08:06 PM
mattsbox99's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Havre, Montana
Posts: 6,284
They say the definition of madness is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different outcome.
__________________
Buy American, it may be your own job you are saving.
UTU, TY&E Service, BNSF
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-30-2010, 11:52 AM
Swany's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Howard City Mi
Posts: 1,559
I would not, unless it was a case of have .44s but no .444s and only a .444 to shoot.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-02-2010, 08:44 AM
Nite Ryder's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 264
I agree with Swany on this one. I wouldn't shoot 44 mag's in my 444, unless I was darn hungry and 44 mags were all I have. I have both a 444 and a 44 Mag, both are fairly accurate. I doubt very much that your friend who says he gets good accuracy shooting 44 mag in his 444 is being honest. Having that much freebore (at least an inch) ruins accuracy.
__________________
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-02-2010, 04:55 PM
Griz's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite Ryder View Post
I agree with Swany on this one. I wouldn't shoot 44 mag's in my 444, unless I was darn hungry and 44 mags were all I have. I have both a 444 and a 44 Mag, both are fairly accurate. I doubt very much that your friend who says he gets good accuracy shooting 44 mag in his 444 is being honest. Having that much freebore (at least an inch) ruins accuracy.
you'd think so, but what about the taurus judge? the 410 mag length chamber gives the 45 Colt bullet quite a bit of freebore too. Is that known to be detrimental to its performance with 45s??
__________________
..., Grizz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI&feature=relmfu

http://www.brandtdary.com/goodtest.php
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-02-2010, 06:35 PM
mattsbox99's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Havre, Montana
Posts: 6,284
Yes, its abysmally inaccurate at distances beyond 7 yards. That has been well documented, and its no surprise.
__________________
Buy American, it may be your own job you are saving.
UTU, TY&E Service, BNSF
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-03-2010, 03:36 AM
magnumitis's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griz View Post
you'd think so, but what about the taurus judge? the 410 mag length chamber gives the 45 Colt bullet quite a bit of freebore too. Is that known to be detrimental to its performance with 45s??
The inaccuracy of the Judge with .45 Colt ammo is due more to the shallow riflings (so as to not completely scatter fine shot) than it is due to the freebore. Guns with a substantial amount of freebore can be nasty accurate. Weatherby rifles in Weatherby calibers all have freebore.

Beyond that, though, I don't honestly have enough knowledge of interchangability to recommend or squash your idea of the .44's in a .444.
__________________
"Too much gun always beats the alternative."
Elmer Keith
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-03-2010, 06:06 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 5,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsbox99 View Post
Yes, its abysmally inaccurate at distances beyond 7 yards. That has been well documented, and its no surprise.

Not necessarily true Matt. A friend bought a Judge with the 3" cylinder. Two weeks ago we took it out for the first time. Shooting Ultra-Max .45 cowboy loads, I was consistantly hitting clay pigeons at 25 yards. Previously shooting at a target at the same range it was printing 5" high and about 2" to the right, just had to hold to the right spot....All shooting was offhand.
__________________
Still Learnin' as I go!

NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Recoil Threshold Limit? markkw Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 97 06-12-2010 07:12 PM
35 REM. VS. 44 MAG. Tony Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 39 03-28-2010 04:43 PM
Modified 444 XLR Update. Flat Top Big-Bore Lever Guns 18 03-25-2010 06:09 AM
.44 mag bullets for 444 marlin cali-newbie Handloading Procedures/Practices 10 12-09-2009 01:33 PM
444 Marlin LDR Leverguns and Their Cartridges (General) 19 01-27-2009 07:00 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:28 AM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2