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  #1  
Old 02-15-2004, 05:15 PM
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45-70 vs 450 Marlin


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I am looking at the Marlin guide gun. I have the choice of a 450 or 45-70 for the same price. I think I might have seen this comparison a while back but I cant find it. Perhaps not?! I reload so ammo price isnt a problem unless 450 brass is that more expensive.
A bit of background: I am planning a Maine bear hunt next fall and I would like to carry a backup rifle. I plan to use my 454 Casull revolver as my primary hunting tool. I like the guide gun because its short and built like a tank. Very attractive aspects for a brush gun.

How do these cartridges compare?
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2004, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobill86
How do these cartridges compare?
Loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns the 450 Marlin and 45-70 Gov't are virtual ballistic equivalents. Hence, if you are going to reload the cost of brass (450 is more expensive) may be the only consideration, other than that, flip a coin.
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  #3  
Old 02-15-2004, 05:29 PM
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Hoo boy, you've hit the proverbial loaded question. They are ballistically the same, with the 450 brass being a little heavier, and able to take greater pressures. The Hornady 450 factory loads push 350 grains at 2,100 fps. Lotsa oomph!

The 45/70 clan will tell you that there isn't a thing the 450 can do that the 45/70 can't. For example, check out www.buffalobore.com. I, on the other hand, don't reload, so the 450 was the way to go (1895MR) for the flatter trajectory at half the cost.

Either way, be prepared to fall in love.

Ursus
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  #4  
Old 02-15-2004, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobill86
I am looking at the Marlin guide gun. I have the choice of a 450 or 45-70 for the same price. I think I might have seen this comparison a while back but I cant find it. Perhaps not?! I reload so ammo price isnt a problem unless 450 brass is that more expensive.
A bit of background: I am planning a Maine bear hunt next fall and I would like to carry a backup rifle. I plan to use my 454 Casull revolver as my primary hunting tool. I like the guide gun because its short and built like a tank. Very attractive aspects for a brush gun.

How do these cartridges compare?
Hi. First let me qualify my response with this: I do not nor have I ever owned a gun for either of these cartridges, but I have read a lot about them and here's what I have found. They are nearly identical in capacity and can be loaded to the same pressure in the same type of action, the Marlin 1895 in this case. If you were not a handloader, the 45-70 has a much broader range of loads available than the .450 Marlin. However, since you are a handloader, you can load the same bullets to the same velocity with either cartridge. The difference is the 45-70 is a rimmed case and the .450 Marlin is a belted case. It's a matter of personal preference. Starline Brass does not list .450 Marlin brass on their website, so maybe it's only available from the companies that load it. I don't know the answer to that one, but I think the difference in the price of brass between the 2 cartidges would be insignificant with no more pieces than you would need. I also plan to buy or trade for a Marlin 1895 one of these days, and like you, I am a handloader and could be happy with either one. However, I am leaning toward the 45-70. Lot's of dies and brass available, I can use Garrett or Buffalo Bore heavy loads if I want to pay for premium ammo, and in a pinch, 45-70 standard pressure ammo is probably available in many more retail stores than .450 Marlin. I posed the question of which one feeds better on another website, and 1 man said .450 Marlin fed better, but he was strongly biased toward the .450 and I have not read of any other 45-70 lever gun owners complaining about the rimmed cartridge being a problem in a lever gun. I hope I gave you some thoughts to ponder, but the bottom line is it's "your" preference.
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  #5  
Old 02-15-2004, 05:52 PM
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Something else to ponder. I know this does not happen often, but it does happen. You show up, your gun shows up, but your ammo winds up in Bora-Bora. The local Billy Bob's gun shop or Wally World is the only place to buy ammo, which do you think they are more likely to have, the everybody and their grandmother makes a load for cartridge,(.45-70), or the more expensive and less widely used new comer (.450)? If in a magazine fed rifle like a Siamese Mauser or Gibbs, the rimmed round can cause problems, but not in the tube fed Marlins. Very unlikely for the rimmed .45-70 to give you any more trouble than the belted .450.
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  #6  
Old 02-15-2004, 06:28 PM
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Big Bore and others have some pretty good points.

If you don't reload, the factory 45-70 is pretty tame because of all the older, weaker action rifles still out there. That's why Marlin put a belt on their .450. This ammo comes factory loaded a lot warmer than the factory 45-70 because it will only fit a modern, stronger action.

If you reload and have a modern levergun or singleshot, you can load the 45-70 to as great a level as the .450.

Whatever, both are good cartridges and have a lot of punch. They are also close to medium range cartridges. 200 yds is stretching them to the limit. 100 to 150 yds is a better max range, due to the baseball like trajectory. Mine is sighted in for 150 max yds.
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  #7  
Old 02-15-2004, 07:25 PM
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broncobill86 -

It doesn't make a bit of difference which you choose.

Here's a comparison of .444, 450 Marlin and .45-70 loads, both factory and handloaded that I put together have posted numerous times on Marlin Talk when the question came up. (Thank God for cut and paste!)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.444, .45-70 and 450Marlin comparison - updated 12/26/2003.

Here's a short compendium of information on loads and factory ammo for the 444, 450M and .45-70 (Marlin).

Here are the fastest loads I can find:

.444Marlin
200g @ 2730fps, 3311fpe (Accurate Arms, 41,300CUP)
240g @ 2499fps, 3329fpe (Hodgdon, 42,100 CUP)
250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Nosler Partition $27.78 (Conley)
265g @ 2200fps, 2849fpe, JFP (Conley)
265g @ 2273fps, 3041fpe (Hodgdon, 41,100 CUP)
265g @ 2335fps, 3209fpe (Hornady @ Cabelas)
280g @ 2200fps, 3009fpe (Corbon)
300g @ 2082fps, 2888fpe (Hodgdon, 42,500 CUP)
300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, JSP $22.75 (Conley)
300g @ 2150fps, 3078fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo)
300g @ 2152fps, 3086fpe (Hodgdon #26)
300g @ 2211fps, 3257fpe (Speer #13)
305g @ 2100fps, 2988fpe (Corbon)

450Marlin
250g @ 2509fps, 3495fpe (Hodgdon, 42,200 PSI)
300g @ 2321fps, 3589fpe (Hodgdon, 42,200 PSI)
350g @ 2196fps, 3749fpe (Hodgdon, 42,300 PSI)
350g @ 2100fps, 3428fpe (Hornady Factory)
400g @ 2023fps, 3636fpe (Hodgdon, 41,900 PSI)


.45-70
250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, HP (Conley)
300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Nosler Partition (Protected Point) (Conley)
300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
300g @ 2424fps, 3915fpe (Hodgdon, 40,00 CUP)
325g @ 1950fps, 2745fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
350g @ 1970fps, 3017fpe, JFP (Hornady) (Conley)
350g @ 2191fps, 3732fpe (Hodgdon, 39,300 CUP)
400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Swift A-Frame Flat Point (Conley)
400g @ 2002fps, 3561fpe (Hodgdon, 39,400 CUP)
405g @ 1900fps, 3247fpe, JSP (Conley)
430g @ 1925fps, 3539fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo)
500g @ 1625fps, 2532fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo)
540g @ 1550fps, 2880fpe (Garrett)




Factory ammo and costs:

.444Marlin
$37.93 200g @ 2320fps, 2391fpe, Barnes XPB @ Conley
$37.93 225g @ 2200fps, 2365fpe, Barnes XPB @ Conley
$19.99 240g @ 2350fps, 2942fpe (Remington @ Cabelas)
$27.78 250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Nosler Partition (Conley)
$24.99 265g @ 2335fps, 3209fpe (Hornady @ Cabelas)
$22.62 265g @ 2200fps, 2849fpe, JFP (Conley)
$17.00 270g @ 2200fps, 2902fpe Speer Gold Dot @ Georgia Arms
$39.99 270g @ 2250fps, 3034fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$36.32 280g @ 2200fps, 3009fpe (Corbon)
$17.00 300g @ 2000fps, 2665fpe Speer Gold Dot @ Georgia Arms
$39.99 300g @ 2020fps, 2719fps, Swift A-Frame @ Conley
$22.75 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, JSP (Conley)
$39.99 300g @ 2150fps, 3078fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$37.11 305g @ 2100fps, 2988fpe (Corbon)
$39.99 335g @ 2025fps, 3049fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)


450Marlin
$20.21 350g @ 2100fps, 3428fpe (Hornady @ Midsouth)


.45-70
$41.54 250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
$??.?? 300g @ 1810fps, 2182fpe (Remington @ Remington web site)
$20.39 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Winchester JHP, Natchez)
$20.60 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Federal, Natchez)
$29.81 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Winchester Partition Gold, Natchez)


$22.84 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, HP (Conley)
$44.66 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
$32.50 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Nosler Partition (Protected Point) (Conley)
$41.54 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
$25.08 350g @ 1970fps, 3017fpe, Hornady JFP (Conley)
$34.89 350g @ 1800fps, 2519fpe, BCSP (Corbon @ Corbon web site)

$19.47 350g @ 2025fps, 3188fpe, PMC @CheaperThanDirt.com)
$39.99 350g @ 2150fps, 3593fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$24.99 400g @ 1250fps, 1388fpe (Black Hills @ Cabelas)
$44.66 400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
$54.46 400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Swift A-Frame Flat Point (Conley)
$12.99 405g @ 1350fps, 1639fpe (PMC @ Cabelas)
$18.99 405g @ 1100fps, 1088fpe (Ultramax @ Cabelas)
$22.50 405g @ 1325fps, 1579fpe, RNFP (Conley)
$18.99 405g @ 1330fps, 1590fpe (Remington @ Cabelas)
$24.50 405g @ ??? (Winchester @ Cascade Ammunition web site)
$35.57 405g @ 1700fps, 2600fpe, FPPE (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$22.99 405g @ 1900fps, 3247fpe, JSP (Conley)
$39.99 405g @ 2000fps, 3597fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$41.99 405g @ ??? (Obsolete Ammunition @ Cabelas)
$50.00 420g @ 1850fps, 3200fpe (Garrett)
$39.99 430g @ 1925fps, 3537fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$34.50 460g @ 1650fps, 2780fpe, HC (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$41.99 500g @ ??? (Obsolete Ammunition @ Cabelas)
$52.99 500g @ 1625fps, 2931fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$50.00 540g @ 1550fps, 2880fpe (Garrett)
$180.00 500g @ 1530fps, 2600fpe (Speer AGS Tungsten, Garrett)

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  #8  
Old 02-16-2004, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursus
...with the 450 brass being a little heavier, and able to take greater pressures. The Hornady 450 factory loads push 350 grains at 2,100 fps. Lotsa oomph!

...I on the other hand, don't reload, so the 450 was the way to go (1895MR) for the flatter trajectory at half the cost.

Either way, be prepared to fall in love.

Ursus
.45-70 Government brass reloads to 50,000CUP in a Ruger No 1. (Don't try that in your Marlin no matter which brass your using! .45-70 Government or .450 Marlin! )

PMC 45-70HA +P+ using a 350gr Hornady Bullet is ballistically equal to the Hornady .450 Marlin load and costs less.

Conley Precision Cartridge also loads a .45-70 load with the 350gr Hornady bullet ballistically equal to the .450 Marlin load that costs about the same if not a little less.

So again, even if you don't reload, flip a coin.
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  #9  
Old 02-16-2004, 07:52 AM
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CH-very good info. That took you a little while to compile, no? Thanks for posting it. I hope that you do not mind that I "stole" if for future reference.
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  #10  
Old 02-16-2004, 12:44 PM
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Thanks for the info guys. I think that I am now leaning more towards the 45-70.

Bill
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  #11  
Old 02-17-2004, 03:25 AM
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45-70 for the reasons already given, but to me the history is just as important. Maybe not a logical reason but I think of the 45-70 as the next step from a muzzle-loader. It has brought me to the latter part of the 19th century, I still get to play with loads(bullets, powders ect) and it makes me somehow feel more connected to the past. There is somthing very satisfying about using something old and maybe making it perform a little better(Thats why I still love my Norton Commando so much) and I like being differant from the croud.
If the 45-70 gets any more popular I may have to look for a new cartridge.
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  #12  
Old 02-17-2004, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobill86
Thanks for the info guys. I think that I am now leaning more towards the 45-70.

Bill


I was where you are now asking the same question. It all started when I laid eyes on my friends guide gun .450 in the cabinet. So a .450 is what I just had to have. Then I decided to ask around on various forums. Of course both are great guns. I chose the 45-70, ported and blued. Started reloading as a result and have never looked back.



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  #13  
Old 03-08-2004, 03:17 PM
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I've owned both and for what it's worth I would go with the 45-70. Everybody has mentioned that the cartridges can be loaded to very close to equal pressures. For me I prefer to keep the velocities down a bit when at the range, and when hunting whitetail. The biggest difference I ever noticed shooting both these rounds where that at the bench you could be in for some severe scope-eye with the .450 factory stuff,while the 45-70 factory loads were much friendlier. Both cartridges cycled well in both guns, and both gave surprising accuracy set up scoped and peep-sighted.(1MOA scoped;2-1/2MOA peep) The only thing I found in the .450's favor were that the rounds were easier to load into the magazine than the 45-70's rim, but once loaded the 45-70 is my choice. All in all you won't go wrong with either, but remember about the .450's jump the first shot you take from the bench.
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Old 03-10-2004, 05:01 AM
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I have noted that there is a rather large group of people out there ( in diffrent shooting forms )
that just cant stand anyone hunting anything with a lever action rifle .
Thay will say anything and do anthing to prove there side even Post missleading and even date that is
twisted to prove it ..
It just burns my @@@ ..
To prove there point thay first bring up that .......
Most lever action guns have working pressures of 18.000 PSI and cant handle heavy loads as thoughts found in bolt action's... This as you know is only part true ....And twisted around to make it sound bad..
And thay post as fact data like this ......

450 Marlin 405gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Horn TempF: 58 OAL: 2.525"
PT PW Vel SD GS Bullseye9.09286.31.6710.09875.92.511.010477.72.312.010997. 91.6813.011578.43.6

450 Marlin 405gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Horn TempF: 56 OAL: 2.525"
PT PW Vel SD GS HS612.088512,43.213.095513.41.6114.010147.91.9115.010 7313.32.516.0112310.33.7

Ok now who's going to bother shooting this Cra& in there gun Hu?
I Would like to add somthing right now DONT TRY ANY OF THESE LOADS EVER IN ANY OF YOUR FIRE ARMS E V E R...
This is like me trying to prove a point by tell you guys that the 460 Wea/ mag suck if you load it with 98 grains of saw dust and that make it a crummy gun to hunt with ? Say WHAT??

Pottsy
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  #15  
Old 03-26-2004, 07:55 PM
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I'd go with the 45-70 for sure. The 450 will likely die-out and you'll then have difficulty finding brass and ammo.

It'll die-out because it's too identical to the already very well established 45-70. And, it does not have the super, appealing history of the 45-70.
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  #16  
Old 03-27-2004, 04:32 AM
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Broncobill I went through exactly what your doing. I'm going back for a second bear hunt in Maine this fall and I decided on taking a guide gun after looking them over at the gun shows. I decided on a 45-70 guide with ported barrel because the price was almost one hundred bucks cheaper than what the 450 was going for at Bass Pro. I also after surfing the web for all the info I could read on the subject decided the 45-70 would be the best gun for me and bought a 2X7 varix2 Leupold to stick on the top of it. Both guns are similar but looking for factory amo in Maine may or may not be a problem for the 450. I have yet to shoot my guide gun but it will be soon.
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Old 04-03-2004, 05:49 AM
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If the .450 Marlin has heavier brass then it would be my choice. I own a Ruger No. 1 in 45/70 so if I buy a Big Bore it would be in .444 Marlin or .450 Marlin. I do own an Encore in .444 Marlin and I love the round.

Sidebar:
What is the rim diameter of the .450 Marlin. This would make an excellent choice in bolt action due to the fact that it doesn't have the large rim found on the .45/70.
I always wanted a .45/70 bolt action but the .450 would be better for feeding purposes. Maybe an old Enfield action might work??
hmm

Last edited by jonnyringo; 04-03-2004 at 05:51 AM.
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  #18  
Old 04-03-2004, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyringo
If the .450 Marlin has heavier brass then it would be my choice. I own a Ruger No. 1 in 45/70 so if I buy a Big Bore it would be in .444 Marlin or .450 Marlin. I do own an Encore in .444 Marlin and I love the round.

Sidebar:
What is the rim diameter of the .450 Marlin. This would make an excellent choice in bolt action due to the fact that it doesn't have the large rim found on the .45/70.
I always wanted a .45/70 bolt action but the .450 would be better for feeding purposes. Maybe an old Enfield action might work??
hmm
http://www.gibbsrifle.com/sport.html

Or
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976419657.htm

Gibbs Rifle Company Quest Summit Frontier .45-70 Sporter Enfield No. 1 Mk III receiver with highly polished blued barrel, Williams rear sight, detachable 3 round magazine. Any Enfield No. 1 Mk III scope mount will fit. .45-70 caliber, very nice sporter stock.

Pottsy

Last edited by martin t potts; 04-03-2004 at 08:09 AM.
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  #19  
Old 04-03-2004, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martin t potts
http://www.gibbsrifle.com/sport.html

Or
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976419657.htm

Gibbs Rifle Company Quest Summit Frontier .45-70 Sporter Enfield No. 1 Mk III receiver with highly polished blued barrel, Williams rear sight, detachable 3 round magazine. Any Enfield No. 1 Mk III scope mount will fit. .45-70 caliber, very nice sporter stock.

Pottsy
Thanks!
I am very impressed with the 303 and 45/70.
Great site and thanks again.
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Old 04-04-2004, 09:27 PM
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Does the .450 offer a shorter COL? Seems like Winchester would've just as well offered the new ported model in the original, unless it's too long for the 94 action.
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