» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Rifle and Rifle Cartridges > Black Rifles
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Like Tree7Likes

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-18-2012, 05:55 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 175
Less than 10 Million Ar-15's produced?


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


I was reading a couple different articles that were comparing the AK and the AR. A couple mentioned that there were over 100 million Ak's produced but less than 10 million for AR's.
I can believe the AK but I would have guessed that there would be a whole lot more than 10 million AR roaming around.
After all it is americas most popular rifle. The 870 had over 10 million eventhough it has been around a little longer.

Just wondering what your thoughts were on this. Maybe it was a bad couple articles I read
  #2  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:38 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,839
What makes you think the AR is "americas most popular rifle"? Of the 10 million that have been produced, how many of those are actually in civilian hands? Or, is that number in addition to the guns used by the military?

The simple answer to your question is that MANY Americans still look at the "black guns" as inherently sinister, if not downright evil. Even those of us who are more open-minded as to their purpose and intent still find them ugly as home-made sin. Count me among those. Americans have a history of treasured sporting arms, like the Winchester 94 which has sold over 7 million.

Another factor in why the rest of the world has produced so many AK's is that very few of those countries enjoy the freedom to own a variety of guns. Where the average American might own a few handguns, a shotgun or two, a couple lever guns, bolt-action rigs, antique rifles, muzzle-loaders AND a semi-auto...citizens of other nations are probably fortunate to own just one or two guns, total.

All things considered, I don't feel under-gunned, not owning an automatic rifle. If our shores are ever invaded, I might change how I feel about that very quickly.
  #3  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:45 AM
dmsbandit's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by broom_jm View Post
What makes you think the AR is "americas most popular rifle"? Of the 10 million that have been produced, how many of those are actually in civilian hands? Or, is that number in addition to the guns used by the military?

The simple answer to your question is that MANY Americans still look at the "black guns" as inherently sinister, if not downright evil. Even those of us who are more open-minded as to their purpose and intent still find them ugly as home-made sin. Count me among those. Americans have a history of treasured sporting arms, like the Winchester 94 which has sold over 7 million.

Another factor in why the rest of the world has produced so many AK's is that very few of those countries enjoy the freedom to own a variety of guns. Where the average American might own a few handguns, a shotgun or two, a couple lever guns, bolt-action rigs, antique rifles, muzzle-loaders AND a semi-auto...citizens of other nations are probably fortunate to own just one or two guns, total.

All things considered, I don't feel under-gunned, not owning an semi-automatic rifle. If our shores are ever invaded, I might change how I feel about that very quickly.
I fixed it for you broom_jm.
Maybe you ought to come over to the "dark side". You might be surprised by an AR.
__________________
"I don't drink or smoke, I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline."
  #4  
Old 03-19-2012, 04:12 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ashburn, VA.
Posts: 36
The answer is proliferation. The Soviets built and sold AKs to any country that wanted them. The US has strict controls on who we give arms to. (or we did until Eric Holder and Fast and Furious)
  #5  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:35 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsbandit View Post
I fixed it for you broom_jm.
Maybe you ought to come over to the "dark side". You might be surprised by an AR.
There is a debate over whether or not "AR" means "automatic rifle" or "auto-loading rifle". Given that the difference between the two is a one or two parts, I stand by my original wording.

I've shot AR-10's and AR-15's...they don't do much for me. I find them entirely utilitarian, on top of being uglier than a 2AM mistake in judgement. I'm glad we live in a country where we can pick n' choose what guns we shoot because I find the AK's and AR's about as interesting and attractive as a lawn mower. They are purpose-built, and do a great job at what they are built for, but shooting people has absolutely NO appeal, to me.

Again, if the enemy ever brings the fight to our shores, I will most assuredly take a different stance. Regardless, this does explain why they are not more popular than they are, with many shooters.
__________________
Ask me about QDMA.
  #6  
Old 03-19-2012, 08:10 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,422
Broom got it right on both accounts.
Most of the ARs were made as military rifles, collected and reissued so few needed.

The 870 was basically (except for a few mil) was/is a commerical gun. Few ARs were left in battle, bet you lots of ars burried in sand.

IIRC AR stands for Armalite, the company that picked it up after Fairchild, and sold them to the Air Force then to Colt.

I'll never give up on my bolt, or single shot rifles for a mattel.

It IS more correct to call and AR an "auto" than say the 1911 auto. The Ar was a full auto with the select fire originally in it. Later with the 2 or 3 shot automatic function, it is still and auto. the 1811 is only a semi-auto.


I never thought of AR fans as being "the Darkside"....but if you guys say so....I'll just believe you!!!
  #7  
Old 03-19-2012, 08:34 AM
dmsbandit's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryS View Post
Broom got it right on both accounts.
Most of the ARs were made as military rifles, collected and reissued so few needed.

The 870 was basically (except for a few mil) was/is a commerical gun. Few ARs were left in battle, bet you lots of ars burried in sand.

IIRC AR stands for Armalite, the company that picked it up after Fairchild, and sold them to the Air Force then to Colt.

I'll never give up on my bolt, or single shot rifles for a mattel.

It IS more correct to call and AR an "auto" than say the 1911 auto. The Ar was a full auto with the select fire originally in it. Later with the 2 or 3 shot automatic function, it is still and auto. the 1811 is only a semi-auto.


I never thought of AR fans as being "the Darkside"....but if you guys say so....I'll just believe you!!!
They are often called "black rifle" hence the "darkside" referance.

AR stands for Armalite Rifle.

M-16s and M-4s are auto guns that require a class 3 license. AR rifle are SEMI-AUTO.
__________________
"I don't drink or smoke, I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline."
  #8  
Old 03-19-2012, 09:44 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsbandit View Post
They are often called "black rifle" hence the "darkside" referance.

AR stands for Armalite Rifle.

M-16s and M-4s are auto guns that require a class 3 license. AR rifle are SEMI-AUTO.
and with the swapping of a few parts are made FULL-AUTO. Nomenclature and picking of nits aside...what's your point? Perception remains the better part of reality, after all.

I think it's great that Americans can own what amounts to a modern-day battle rifle, sans the full-auto capability. God bless this country! All I'm saying is that they do nothing for me, whatsoever. I've never even liked semi-auto 22 rifles, preferring bolt-action or single-shot designs.

They were designed entirely for the taking of human life, which I sincerely hope to avoid. I'm an old, fat guy that was never well-suited for military endeavors. My guns are for fun shooting, hunting and (if pressed) self-defense. I pray it never comes to that and fervently hope our military is able to defend our borders, should the enemy ever come a'knocking.
  #9  
Old 03-19-2012, 10:43 AM
dmsbandit's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by broom_jm View Post
and with the swapping of a few parts are made FULL-AUTO. Nomenclature and picking of nits aside...what's your point? Perception remains the better part of reality, after all.

I think it's great that Americans can own what amounts to a modern-day battle rifle, sans the full-auto capability. God bless this country! All I'm saying is that they do nothing for me, whatsoever. I've never even liked semi-auto 22 rifles, preferring bolt-action or single-shot designs.

They were designed entirely for the taking of human life, which I sincerely hope to avoid. I'm an old, fat guy that was never well-suited for military endeavors. My guns are for fun shooting, hunting and (if pressed) self-defense. I pray it never comes to that and fervently hope our military is able to defend our borders, should the enemy ever come a'knocking.
broom, don't believe the anti-gun media and politicians. I can not take my AR's and make them full auto with "the swapping of a few parts". The frames are different.

In case you and others have forgotten your history,

The mauser was designed as a military gun from the start. [father of the modern bolt action]

The Springfield Trapdoor was a military gun from the start. [used for many years as a hunting gun]

The Colt SSA was a military gun from the start. [Father of the modern single action handgun]

The Springfield 03A3 was a military gun from the start.[basis for thousands and thousands of custom guns]

The Colt 1911 was a military gun from the start.

the 30-06 cartridge was a military cartridge from the start. [father of many hunting cartridges]

the 308 win was a military cartridge from the start.[father of even more hunting cartridges]

The 45ACp was a military cartridge from the start.[ often called the manstopper]

the 45Colt was a military cartridge from the start.

the 9MM parabellum was a military cartridge from the start. [most produced centerfire pistol cartridge in the world.]


Just because something starts out in the military, doesn't mean it's only use is the military. I also own and shoot many different guns and have only recently bought 2 AR style rifles. While they may not be the prettiest guns, they are hard to beat for versitility and accuracy. The AR platform is being used for LONG range rifle matches and because it's a modular system it's easy to adapt to many different roles.
fritz1 likes this.
__________________
"I don't drink or smoke, I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline."

Last edited by dmsbandit; 03-19-2012 at 11:37 AM.
  #10  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:20 PM
Big Bore's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 1,829
AR means one thing and one thing only, ARMALITE RIFLE. That is a well known fact in the AR world. Armalite came out with the first AR and if you go to their web site they tell you in no uncertain terms, AR means Armalite Rifle. Not Automatic Rifle, not Auto-Loading Rifle, just Armalite Rifle. End of discussion as to what AR means.
When Colt took on the AR patent to make the AR-15, they got exclusive use of the AR-15 name, not even Armalite can call their rifles AR-15s, they are M15s and every other AR-15 type rifle maker calls them something different, but only Colt can now use the term "AR-15" on their rifles, but it still stands for Armalite Rifle.
fritz1 and 60DRB like this.
__________________
Join the N.R.A.
On the 8th day, God created HKs.
Beware speaking with a sharp tongue as you are apt to cut your own throat.
  #11  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:57 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,839
"A rose by any other name..."

Like I said, nomenclature aside, they are made with one intent. I don't have a problem with "Armalite" rifles but the OP asked why only 10 million have been made. I expressed my opinion that they are ugly as can be and the PERCEPTION by many folks is that they are guns of war, period. I'm not saying I won't own one, some day, but when I do it will be no different than owning a drill press or electric generator...a heavy-duty tool suitable for a narrow range of service.

I'm fine with guys who love their AR's, but just like the plastic-stocked bolt guns made these days, there are plenty of folks who are left cold by semi-automatic assault rifles. The only good thing I can say about the AR is that it is eminently useful, but I pray I will never have need of one.
  #12  
Old 03-20-2012, 02:49 AM
dmsbandit's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by broom_jm View Post
"A rose by any other name..."

Like I said, nomenclature aside, they are made with one intent. I don't have a problem with "Armalite" rifles but the OP asked why only 10 million have been made. I expressed my opinion that they are ugly as can be and the PERCEPTION by many folks is that they are guns of war, period. I'm not saying I won't own one, some day, but when I do it will be no different than owning a drill press or electric generator...a heavy-duty tool suitable for a narrow range of service.

I'm fine with guys who love their AR's, but just like the plastic-stocked bolt guns made these days, there are plenty of folks who are left cold by semi-automatic assault rifles. The only good thing I can say about the AR is that it is eminently useful, but I pray I will never have need of one.
Broom_jm,
I like you and I think you bring alot to the forum, but please do not call the AR-15 an assault weapon. An assault weapon is a selective fire weapon that requires a class 3 license. The ignorant politians, media, and non gun owning people call them assault weapons due to their ignorance.

I know you are not any of the above.
fritz1 likes this.
__________________
"I don't drink or smoke, I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline."
  #13  
Old 03-20-2012, 04:36 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsbandit View Post
Broom_jm,
I like you and I think you bring alot to the forum, but please do not call the AR-15 an assault weapon. An assault weapon is a selective fire weapon that requires a class 3 license. The ignorant politians, media, and non gun owning people call them assault weapons due to their ignorance.

I know you are not any of the above.
I hear what you're saying, and I know that by "technical" description, the civilian-legal AR-15 is NOT an assault weapon, but let's be really honest, here. Why do you own one?

They are fun to shoot...ok, I get that. But, way down deep, isn't PART of the reason you own one the ability to repel an "assault" by unfriendly forces? I am loathe to use the term "prepper", although I readily admit to having set aside a few things for a (ahem) rainy day. But, isn't this about being prepared? Isn't the allure for many owners of an AR or an AK, or any of the semi-auto firearms legal for purchase, the ability to defend ones self and family from aggression?

The 2nd Amendment guarantees us the right to bear arms, with the express intent being that we should be granted the freedom to meet force with force. To that end, many people believe (as do I) that we should be allowed to own and shoot any shoulder-mounted small arm the military uses. Sadly, the demented actions of a few insane individuals has limited us from our freedom to do that. Aren't you doing the next best thing, by owning an AR or two?

We are once again quibbling over "terminology" while ignoring the pink elephant under the doily in the middle of the shooting range. "AR" rifles, even those modified to prevent selective fire and full-auto fire, are designed for warfare. Until recently, most people were forthright enough to concede that point quite readily, because it is obvious enough that it bears little discussion. In the last 5-10 years, AR-type guns have become more mainstream, as returning soldiers have done what they've always done; embrace the weapons they went to war with.

What you must understand is that I am NOT OPPOSED to AR's. I fully and fervently believe we should be free to own and shoot them, at will. I do not believe in magazine capacity limits. I believe we should be allowed to own the full-auto versions of the same weapons. I'm just willing to call a spade a spade. They are, by and large, "black" guns. They are, by any rational description, an "assault rifle". They are best used for their original design intent; waging war. These are not indictments, they are simple TRUTHS. Maybe you don't see it that way, or maybe you don't want to voice your reasons for owning an AR.

Underneath it all, guns have a purpose. Why don't more folks own AR's? Because they are honest enough with themselves to know what the purpose of an AR is...and have decided they do not need a firearm for that purpose. Others know EXACTLY what an AR is for and this is precisely why they have one. In-between we have a lot of AR owners who are evidently conflicted; claiming they own one "cuz their fun!" and unwilling to admit, even grudgingly, that they own one because it will allow them to kill their enemy, should the need ever arise.

That's how I see it, anyway. And, should that need ever arise, I will either own one, or wish to heck I did.
  #14  
Old 03-20-2012, 06:23 AM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 27,031
I know lots of guys that hunt with them. With the gas system, and shortie buttstocks, they are more kid friendly than you might imagine.

There is a generation of hunters to whom those simply are "rifles" in the way that bolt guns and lever guns are to us.

The AR-15 pattern is here to stay, and we'll see more of them in the fields as time goes on.
fritz1 likes this.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
  #15  
Old 03-20-2012, 08:27 AM
dmsbandit's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,714
Broom_jm,
I bought my RRA LAR-15 [223] and LAR-8 [308] for hunting and target fun. It shoots MOA or less with more than one ammo and it's fun to take to tha range and just play. It's hard to play with a bolt action. This AR type gun allows me to do both with one gun.
With the pull a 2 pins, I can make my LAR-8 a 243win or a 7-08rem and not lose anything. The LAR-15 can become a 458SOCOM, 30AR, 300blackout, 6.5Grendal, and any other 223 length cartridge by pulling 2 pins.
They are so easy to change calibers and configurations it's crazy. You can go from a brush gun with a 16" barrel to a LONG RANGE target/varmit gun in about 5 seconds. They are by far the most user friendly adaptable gun system out there for the average guy. Their biggest handicap is the cost, but the T/C encores are not exactly cheap either.

Probably a major reason for only 10million being sold the the fact that when the barrel or upper parts need replacing, all you do is buy a new upper. No need to buy a whole gun to fix a tired worn out AR, just by the replacement part, and you're good as new. Try that with a bolt, lever, or 7400 remington.
fritz1 likes this.
__________________
"I don't drink or smoke, I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline."

Last edited by dmsbandit; 03-20-2012 at 08:31 AM.
  #16  
Old 03-20-2012, 05:24 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Huffman, Tx
Posts: 798
I want one and can honestly say it has nothing to do with assaulting anyone, or its ability to kill people. After shooting my buddies DPMS LR308B, and having it shoot 1/2" at 200yards with factory ammo and that was the first 5 times I pulled the trigger. I want one bad. I also like the ability to change out uppers however, if I had one in 308win, I see no purpose in altering it to another caliber.
  #17  
Old 03-20-2012, 08:13 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 175
I agree with all of the points. I just thought that was an interesting fact that I came accross. I like all guns and always been into every one in how they work and such. I love shooting and for me any gun that I bring out to the range I have a lot of fun with.
Sure I got some guns for self defense and such but I still bring them to the range and have a good time.
  #18  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:58 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Huffman, Tx
Posts: 798
As to the original point of the post. A couple of reasons for the difference in production numbers.

The Ak-47 began production in 1947(was actually ak-46 the previous year) has been in production 65 years.
The AR-15 began production in 1958(was designed in 1957) has been in production 54 years.

The main reason the AK47 has such high production numbers compared to the AR15 is pricing.

I bought an AR and an AK within a few months of each other(both were stolen the last time my house was broken into and not recovered yet) back in about 2004(would have to go through records to find exact year) the DPMS AR was $1015 brand new, a used CAR15 was about $1200, the AK was $420 brand new. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which is going to sell more.
  #19  
Old 03-21-2012, 03:03 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokinfz1 View Post
As to the original point of the post. A couple of reasons for the difference in production numbers.

The Ak-47 began production in 1947(was actually ak-46 the previous year) has been in production 65 years.
The AR-15 began production in 1958(was designed in 1957) has been in production 54 years.

The main reason the AK47 has such high production numbers compared to the AR15 is pricing.

I bought an AR and an AK within a few months of each other(both were stolen the last time my house was broken into and not recovered yet) back in about 2004(would have to go through records to find exact year) the DPMS AR was $1015 brand new, a used CAR15 was about $1200, the AK was $420 brand new. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which is going to sell more.
Add to that the dozens of nations which have adopted, officially or otherwise, the AK-47 as their primary battle rifle and it's pretty logical that many more of them would have been built.
  #20  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:17 PM
Bolt2bounce's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CA
Posts: 129
I think the # is low also. I'd guess more than 10 million M-16's and AR-15 (copy's) have been produced.. but who know the M1Garand programs produced like 4-6 million rifles....in many less years.. B2B

Last edited by Bolt2bounce; 04-10-2012 at 04:24 PM.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Million rounds of ammo gatguy Humor 29 03-16-2013 01:45 PM
How are BB's mass produced? Cheezywan General Discussion 6 08-31-2011 12:42 PM
got a million of 'em fcfirearms Humor 2 03-06-2009 07:05 AM
Canadian Gun Registry Tops 躷 Million Contender General Discussion 2 10-04-2001 04:01 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:15 AM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2