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  #1  
Old 03-12-2004, 05:23 PM
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hunting with paper patched bullets


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Hello,
I bought a nice 1953 Savage '99R last October,and will dedicate it to cast bullets only.
Yesteray,I finally got to the range to start developement of a paper patched bullet load for Whitetails.
I got mixed results. All shooting is with 3 shot groups at 50 yards.I got some groups around 1/2 inch with low velocity cast ,gas check bullets,but my PPB's were around 1 and 1/2 inch.
The good news is I'm getting pretty good velocity with the 180 grain PPBs. 38.0 grains of IMR#4895 give me 2345 FPS.
38.0 grains of IMR#4895 only give me 2240 FPS with the 180 grain jacketed bullet.
Does anyone have any PPB loads to share? I know that patching little 30 caliber bullets is'nt too popular.
Frank
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  #2  
Old 03-13-2004, 08:30 AM
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I shoot paper patched slugs in several calibers. The glue to hold it on, and the paperare theissues. Deccribe how you make and apply the patch.
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  #3  
Old 03-13-2004, 08:41 AM
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Low vel. plain lead compared to full power paper-patched?...kind of a built in advantage to the low speed stuff. IF you stepped the PP bulletd sown to the plain lead level, proabably would shoot every bit as well....but if you steped the plain lead bullets to 2240fps, how well would they shoot?

The faster you spin anything, the more important the balance...chuch a 3" wooden dowel in a hand drill, and it spins happy as can be...chuck it in a router, and it fragments. The little variations become more important the faster something spins.

Think you're doing nothing wrong at all, the results are good. IF you want the last fraction of accuracy, will have to play with the details as you've got the system working.

Good places to look: Neck tension in the case...bullet (in this case "slug") weight variations....seating depth...any damage to the patch on it's trip to the chamber.

IF you've been cycling the rounds through the action, can try a quick expeiment right now: single load each round and fire for group. If it makes no differnce in group, then the trip to the chamber isn't causeing any trouble...if it shoots smaller groups, know where to look for the reason.
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Old 03-13-2004, 10:55 AM
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Ribbonstone,
I'm shooting a Savage '99;it has a slow spin(1 in 9).The bullet IS pretty soft;BHN#8. I'm sure that it is soft enough for hunting Whitetails,but I will try something softer before November.
I know that plain lead,BHN#5,will not lead my Winchester '94 barrel at 2250 FPS. I have some alloy of BHN#7,and will try that very soon.
All in all,it was a good day at the range.I seem to do better minute of angle shooting at 100 yds then at 50.
I don't want to duplicate my 30/30 round with the 300 Savage,so I am developing a load with a bigger bullet,at slightly faster speed.I feel that I need faster speed to stabilize the longer bullet,anyway.
I just loaded up some lighter bullets,to see if I get leading at a faster speed,with the same alloy.
I'll post my results,here.
Frank
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Old 03-13-2004, 11:03 AM
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Ribbonstone,
Sorry,another Senior Moment. The twist is not the 1 in 9 that I would like,it's a 1 in 12.
Your'e right about the importance of details. I lost a round today because the case mouth was not belled enough,and tore the patch when I seated the bullet.
For more uniform tension,I'm lightly crimping with the Lee factory crimper.
Frank
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Old 03-13-2004, 11:16 AM
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Doc Wills,
I don't use any glue on my paper patch.I would be interested in the glue that you use in yours.
When I started out,I used saliva on each patch that I wrapped on the bullets.Saliva is as close to glue that you will ever really need.
Now, I have a wet sponge that I press both sides of the patch into.This dampens the patch,but does not soak it.Soaking the patch will weaken it. I still put a little saliva on my finger tip,and apply it to the point that starts the wrap around the bullet.If this point doesn't stick,the paper will not be tight to the bullet.
Frank
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  #7  
Old 03-13-2004, 11:28 AM
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Seems that the smaller the bore diameter, the more work it is to get PP to work well...at least that's what I found to be true. Have seen old 25-21 Stevens and 22-15 Stevens rounds evidently reloaded (could be factory loads) with paper patched...that had to be hard. Find it diffiuclt to paper patch and achieve accuracy with the small bores.

Crimping hasn't helpd my efforts any, but I don't use them in repeating actions (at lest not as repeaters). Found that a nice tight fit of bullet into the throat/lead has helped, but that's hard to achieve with repeaters without(1) damaging th patch on the way to the chamber or (2) getting the round to cleanly extract.

NO too heavy a crimp can either stress or tear a patch along the crimp line...and it only takes one shot with naked bare lead to stopp accuracy until it's cleaned.

Just isn't much neck on a .300Savage....not real clear wnat the caliber of that 99 is, and I just assumed it was a .300, but you may be working with a .308.
(BTW: take a hard look at the actual bearing area of the 147-150gr. FMJ military bullet...less than the neck length of the .300savage, so the change to the .308 wasn't based on standard ball's requirments, but on the longer bulklets used).
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  #8  
Old 03-13-2004, 03:13 PM
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Egg white and water. George Nonte gave it to me. Works well.
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  #9  
Old 03-13-2004, 05:33 PM
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Ribbonstone,
Amen to the smaller is more difficult thoery.I'll add that shorter is also more difficult,as well. I'm also working up a load for my 30 Carbine,and wrapping those dinky little 115 grain bullets is a chore.
My '99 is,in fact,a 300 Savage caliber,and that short neck is a problem.With the 180 grain bullet,the base is slightly below the neck when the OL is at recommended max(2.680).
I'm using Pufflon filler to protect it.
I have another confession;the velocity of my 30/30 is 2150FPS,not 22500FPS.SHEESH.
Frank
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  #10  
Old 03-13-2004, 06:24 PM
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DocWills:
Going to have to try that.

Kragman71:

Just for the sake of argument, how does that 99 shoot jacketed ammo?

That short neck would be a proiblem with bullets of that length, and it does limit your ability to play with neck tension a bit as there isn't a whole lot of grabbing area.

1 1/2" groups are certainly useable...and 180 at 2200 isn't to be ignored....I'd hunt with it.
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  #11  
Old 03-15-2004, 03:38 AM
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Kragman -

Get a copy of Paul Matthews' "The Paper Jacket" if you're new to this aspect of shooting - probably the best single source for accurate, useful info on PP'ing. What you'll learn will solve the basic problems you might run into.

Good luck,

Terry
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  #12  
Old 03-15-2004, 04:55 AM
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Ribbonstone,
I get the most out of that stubby neck on the 300 Savage by necksizing the entire length after partial full length resizing.
I'll never know what the '99 will do with jacketed bullets I'm committed to cast bullets only. When I bought it,last Fall,I checked it out with 150 grain Rem,and my best group,at 50 yards was 1 inch(3 rds).
My best,so far with cast,is 1 1/2 inch.That would be 3 inches at 100 yards,and not really good enough for me. I'm sure that I can improve on that.
FWIW, I have that book"The Paper Jacket"as well as "Casting Premium Bullets"by Paul Matthews.I can recommend both of them.In his book,he mentions egg white/water for a paper patch glue.
Frank
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  #13  
Old 03-15-2004, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kragman71
Ribbonstone,
I get the most out of that stubby neck on the 300 Savage by necksizing the entire length after partial full length resizing.
I'll never know what the '99 will do with jacketed bullets I'm committed to cast bullets only. When I bought it,last Fall,I checked it out with 150 grain Rem,and my best group,at 50 yards was 1 inch(3 rds).
My best,so far with cast,is 1 1/2 inch.That would be 3 inches at 100 yards,and not really good enough for me. I'm sure that I can improve on that.
FWIW, I have that book"The Paper Jacket"as well as "Casting Premium Bullets"by Paul Matthews.I can recommend both of them.In his book,he mentions egg white/water for a paper patch glue.
Frank
Are in the ball park fro jackete accuracy, so it's not like you have a long row to hoe.

May start looking at load refinement rahter than technique...if you were to start lower, moving up in stages while keeping accuracy records, may find a more accurate load at a lower vel. That's not acceptable to your hunting plans, but may be able to use that information none the less.

This may be worth a look. The accurate load may be tied to pressure, not to vel. With a slower powder, may be able to duplicate that pressure point, but with acceptabel vel. In other words, don't push them harder...push them longer.
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:13 PM
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Ribbonstone,
Thanks for the advise. I'm doing something similar to that,now. Along with the PPB's,Im developing a load with the Lyman#311041GC bullet at velocities in the 1700FPS-1800FPS range.
My PPB bullet core is patterned after that bullet,and I think that I should be able to match the accuracy that I get with the Lyman bullet when I shoot the PPB.
I will probably shorten the length of my bullet to keep the base within the neck.I can do this without sacrificing weight,by changing to a softer (heavier)alloy.
That is why I'm so pleased with the velocity that I already achieved.A worst case scenerio is that I woud have to drop 100 FPS vel.That would still leave me with plenty of 'wallop'.
Frank
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  #15  
Old 03-16-2004, 11:38 AM
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Kragman
I have been shooting paper patch bullets in the .307 for many years. My primary bullet is the NEI #38 167-grain bullet. The mold cavity is paper patch specific.
Like you I shoot soft bullets. I have settled on range scrap .22Lr bullets. These are pretty soft but I have never bothered to check the hardness. These bullets are soft enough that if I am not careful when seating them, they bend. This is very noticeable. Laying the case on its side and rolling it along a table allows me to see this clearly. The bullet is also soft enough that the seating stem makes a flat on the point.
I have tried to crimp these bullets with poor results. I now use IMR 4064 and load 40.0 grains. The load is lightly compressed and the bullet cannot be pushed back by the magazine spring or recoil. I straighten out the case mouth flare using the seating die as a separate step.
My bullet does not have a base cavity for the patch tail. The bullet has a slight boat tail. This boat tail helps the patch wrap over the base of the bullet. I have used both twisted and folded patch tails. With some powders the folded patch tail works best. I call this my paper gas check. I fold the patch in quarters starting with the seam.
I have had better luck with thick paper, 50% cotton bond or greater. My father has obtained his best results with onion skin paper.
I patch this bullet well up on the nose and when a cartridge is chambered and then extracted the patch has a black ring about 1/16th. deep around the front where the patch bears against the throat.
I use Lee cartridge case sizing lube for my patch lubricant. This is a die maker's wax and not only water proofs (water-resistant) the patch it toughens it significantly. The patches look like ceramic. The patches are tough and the loads work through the magazine without problem. Use care when pushing cartridges through the load gate, the edges are sharp. There is an added benefit in that it coats the bore with wax. This allows you to clean the bore with two dry patches. Bore solvent or water cleans the wax out quickly and easily. When I am shooting paper patch bullets regularly I do not clean the wax out at all.
The .307 has a pretty short neck and I have never noticed this as a problem. I use a Lyman M-die to condition the necks and flare the case mouth.
My NEI bullet drops from the mold about .301". I often size my patched bullets through a push through size die. My Winchester Big Bore seems to prefer bullets at least .310" in diameter. There is springback. That is a patched bullet run through the .310" size die springs back to 3115" or so. As you are well aware if you size too much the patch will be loose on the bullet. I have tried patched bullets sized in a .308" size die with poor results.
I drive the patched bullets at about the same velocity as jacketed bullets in the .307 and can stay under three inches at one hundred yards on most days. There have been a few days when nothing went right.
I like IMR or Hodgdon 4895 with greased cast bullets but it is slightly fast for my load technique. That is it will not give me that slight compression I need to ensure my bullets will not be seated deeper by recoil.
I find no handicap with patched bullets for .30 caliber and larger bullets. I prefer them to greased bullets because it is HOT in West Texas in the summer. Things must be right with greased bullets when the temperatures are above ninety degrees.
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Old 03-16-2004, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by william iorg
Kragman
I have been shooting paper patch bullets in the .307 for many years. My primary bullet is the NEI #38 167-grain bullet. The mold cavity is paper patch specific.
Like you I shoot soft bullets. I have settled on range scrap .22Lr bullets. These are pretty soft but I have never bothered to check the hardness. These bullets are soft enough that if I am not careful when seating them, they bend. This is very noticeable. Laying the case on its side and rolling it along a table allows me to see this clearly. The bullet is also soft enough that the seating stem makes a flat on the point.
I have tried to crimp these bullets with poor results. I now use IMR 4064 and load 40.0 grains. The load is lightly compressed and the bullet cannot be pushed back by the magazine spring or recoil. I straighten out the case mouth flare using the seating die as a separate step.
My bullet does not have a base cavity for the patch tail. The bullet has a slight boat tail. This boat tail helps the patch wrap over the base of the bullet. I have used both twisted and folded patch tails. With some powders the folded patch tail works best. I call this my paper gas check. I fold the patch in quarters starting with the seam.
I have had better luck with thick paper, 50% cotton bond or greater. My father has obtained his best results with onion skin paper.
I patch this bullet well up on the nose and when a cartridge is chambered and then extracted the patch has a black ring about 1/16th. deep around the front where the patch bears against the throat.
I use Lee cartridge case sizing lube for my patch lubricant. This is a die maker's wax and not only water proofs (water-resistant) the patch it toughens it significantly. The patches look like ceramic. The patches are tough and the loads work through the magazine without problem. Use care when pushing cartridges through the load gate, the edges are sharp. There is an added benefit in that it coats the bore with wax. This allows you to clean the bore with two dry patches. Bore solvent or water cleans the wax out quickly and easily. When I am shooting paper patch bullets regularly I do not clean the wax out at all.
The .307 has a pretty short neck and I have never noticed this as a problem. I use a Lyman M-die to condition the necks and flare the case mouth.
My NEI bullet drops from the mold about .301". I often size my patched bullets through a push through size die. My Winchester Big Bore seems to prefer bullets at least .310" in diameter. There is springback. That is a patched bullet run through the .310" size die springs back to 3115" or so. As you are well aware if you size too much the patch will be loose on the bullet. I have tried patched bullets sized in a .308" size die with poor results.
I drive the patched bullets at about the same velocity as jacketed bullets in the .307 and can stay under three inches at one hundred yards on most days. There have been a few days when nothing went right.
I like IMR or Hodgdon 4895 with greased cast bullets but it is slightly fast for my load technique. That is it will not give me that slight compression I need to ensure my bullets will not be seated deeper by recoil.
I find no handicap with patched bullets for .30 caliber and larger bullets. I prefer them to greased bullets because it is HOT in West Texas in the summer. Things must be right with greased bullets when the temperatures are above ninety degrees.
William Iorg,
Thanks for the input.
Your lead is certainly soft. I get no deformation on the bullet nose because I got a custom nosepunch for my bullet from RCBS.I crimp all my loads lightly because I bell the cas mouth.
My bullet has a flat base.I'm interested in your folded paper bullet base.Can you use onion skin paper?
I'm using Lee Liquid Alox on all my loads,now.
I won't be shooting for a while.The weather turned sour;we got half a foot of snow,today,and temps back doun in the 30's
I'll be back
Frank
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Old 03-16-2004, 06:24 PM
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Guilty...assumed you were using a soft alloy. May well be worth the switch; may help accuracy but even if it doesn't, some expasnion to that .300" bullet may be a good thing. In the large bores (and slower twists) have used "pure" lead (or at passes for pure) with good results.

You are liquid aloxing the paper patch? Have to think about that for a bit...I've just lubed the patch with either a "dry" spray or Lee water soulable case sizing lube.
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Old 03-17-2004, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbonstone
Guilty...assumed you were using a soft alloy. May well be worth the switch; may help accuracy but even if it doesn't, some expasnion to that .300" bullet may be a good thing. In the large bores (and slower twists) have used "pure" lead (or at passes for pure) with good results.

You are liquid aloxing the paper patch? Have to think about that for a bit...I've just lubed the patch with either a "dry" spray or Lee water soulable case sizing lube.
Ribbonstone,
I gotta like a Fella who considers BHN#8 as a 'hard'alloy.We do talk the same language.
When I started paper patching,most of the help that I got was from the 'Web'. Someone,somewhere,suggested Lee Alox.I bought a bottle,and use it only on my paper patches.I apply a squirt to a pad and roll the bullet over it.I can control the uniformity of coverage pretty well.It is labor intensive,just like the rest of the paper work.I think that it would be worth a try.
Frank
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Old 03-17-2004, 08:36 AM
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Guess I've spent too much time with the bog bore BP Cartridges. To me, the main idea of PP is to get to use soft alloy (and yes, 8 is pretty soft) at higher speeds or to test out an odd ball sized bore before investing in a custom mold. IF not for those uses, would shoot lubed-lead and be done with it.
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Old 03-24-2004, 11:21 AM
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Hello,again
Got to the range yesterday.It was cold and windy;the crony blew down.I don't shoot very well under those conditions,and the groups were generally disapointing.
But the Oehler worked just fine,and I got some interesting velocity figures.
First;my hottest load,with a 180 grain cast,reorded a Velocity of 2407FPS,and only a few flecks of lead in the barrel at cleanup.This means that my barrel can handle faster bullets then I expect to use.The O.L. is (book)2.60
Second;that same load,with the bullet seated into the rifling (2.750)was the most accurate load of the day.The velocity was 2341FPS,which is within my target velocity.
Third;a similar load with a 170 grain bullet(O.L. 2.60)had a velocity of only 2340;less the the heavier bullet.
I'm loading the same bullet sized .0001 larger,and will try again.
Frank
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