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  #1  
Old 12-31-2005, 02:12 PM
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Lyman done changed it...at least this sample. They lenghtend the gas check shank to get it a bit heavier. Unfortunatly, it won't work in a 1:16 twsit.

Had some bullets cast in an old #225415 that shot just fine...the new mold casts only 4gr. heavier with the same alloy, but that 1/16" extra length tosses them into keyholes on target. Forms a wide lube groove between gas check edge and the driving band...the old one would show only a hair line of lube there.

None of the machine shops I've delt wtih are open (Katrina was tough on machine tools)...the mold casts great, it's just too darned long...so I'm going to tackle this one with make-shift tooling.
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  #2  
Old 12-31-2005, 02:27 PM
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I hate it when they do that. If they must change the mold. You would think they would change the number. Add revision A or something. Can you post pics of the bullets?
Cheezywan
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  #3  
Old 12-31-2005, 03:03 PM
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How long is it?
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  #4  
Old 12-31-2005, 05:16 PM
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Old 225415:
Length: .572
length from bottom of gas check to bottom of driving band: .071"
weight: 52.1gr. (gas checked and lubed)

New 225415
Length: .611"
length from bottom of gas check to bottom of driving band:.109"
weight: 55.1gr. (gas checked and lubed)

So as you can see, if the gas check wasn't .038" longer (from running the cherry in that much deeper) it would have come out .573" OAL.

Thing is the old version whot fine in a 1:16 twsit...the nw vrsion shows tipping at 25yards and wide key-hole groups at 50ayrds. The .039" increase in length is all it took.

Not the first time I've had a Lyman mold like this. A few years back i had a 225462 with the same long gas check shank problem...would cast out at 63gr.

I could order the smaller little round nose mold...but I really want a flat point for small game...have to think on it a bit.

Will crank up the lathe and lathe a handfull to the original length just to be sure any effort on my part to shorten this mold would be worth it.

Last edited by ribbonstone; 12-31-2005 at 05:20 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-31-2005, 05:29 PM
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BTW:
If you haven't thought of this before, the empty primer trays (the big federal types) make great .22 cast bullet holders. Two empty trays held together with rubber bands (one try on top) keeps them seperated and pretty well covered.
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  #6  
Old 12-31-2005, 06:51 PM
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I have a 225415 bullet in the calipers now. Mine reads .595" long. From end of gas check shank to bottom of lower drive band is .113". My mold is about 20 years old. Wonder why mine is in the middlet? The gas check shank is the same length as my Lyman 225438. Both molds about the same age. I get best results with e 225438 at .22 lr velocity. I find the 225415 much more tolerant of speed and various different cartridges. I have shot them both in the Hornet, K-Hornet, Bee and .222 Rem. The 225415 is the best cast bullet for my Marlin 1894 .218 Bee
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  #7  
Old 12-31-2005, 08:30 PM
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Suspect it will take me most of a day as i haven't a mill or drill press to abuse as if it were one. Only want to remove .04".

So i'm going to remove the screw, get that pin out, and use a dead flat surface (a section of plate glass) and several grades of good abrasive paper. Have to work hard at keeping it dead flat...so will proably screw the mold blocks to a 6" section of level board (can rig up something using the mounting screws). Will just be easier to keep closer to level that way.

That .04 shouldn't ruin the screw hole for the plate...will just need a .04 thicker washer on top of the plate....then probably make a new pin as i suspect i'll bugger the devil out of the one in there getting it out of a blind hole.

Actually, was trying to talk myself out of the job...it isn't complicated, just mind numbing...but i do want a flat pointed bullet, and it evidently needs to be the same length as the old mold.

that old one was a single cavity that I found in a gun shop junk box...was stripped of everything but the bolcks. Was clean and non-abused, just had all it's aprts stripped off sometime in the distant past. So i put on the pasrts from a mold I already had but wasn't ever going to use again (single cavity for a .38specail HB wad cutter...considering the cheap price and great quaility of swaged HBWC's, no way i'd eve cast the things again).

Last edited by ribbonstone; 12-31-2005 at 08:35 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-31-2005, 11:45 PM
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Hello everyone, have been lurking in the background for quite a while, absorbing as much information as I could from all of you. I have been collecting the common tools for casting for some time now have 200 pounds of wheel weights and the time and desire to try something new.
I want to cast flat point bullets in 223, 308, 44 (pisol & rifle) and 45-70. All for hunting and plinking.
Weapons are as listed below.
223 = Ruger 77, 1 in 9 twist.
308 = Custom 1903A3 action with Douglas Match
grade barrel, rate of twist unknown, will
shoot sub 1/4" group with 165gr match king.
44 = Ruger carbine(old model) 44 & S&W 29, 6"
looking at bullets from 240gr to 265gr.
45-70 = Browning 1885, Looking at bullets from
300gr to 405gr.
Really interested in Lyman moulds. If any of you can help it would be greatly appreciated.
ribbonstone, I'm not in New Orleans very often, but if I can help you when I am there let me know..........thanks.........larry
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  #9  
Old 01-01-2006, 06:42 AM
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add the links!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherok9878
Hello everyone, have been lurking in the background for quite a while, absorbing as much information as I could from all of you. I have been collecting the common tools for casting for some time now have 200 pounds of wheel weights and the time and desire to try something new. larry

Good morning!

Be sure to join the Cast Bullet Association. Below are two links to yahoo groups on cast bullets. The first is the Cast Bullet Assn "official" site. The second is Charles Hamiltons "unofficial" site. Both are worth watching.

If you are unfamilure with yahoo groups when you join a group set you e-mail to Daily Digest to recieve only one or two e-mails a day.


http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/cbaforum/

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-L/
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  #10  
Old 01-01-2006, 10:10 AM
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Happy New Year!
I've had the same experience with this bullet in the 1-12 barrels in several calibers. Good accuracy at almost any speed from 900 FPS through 2700. Tried to use it in a 1-16 Brno ZKW 465 rifle rechambered to 221 Fireball and got total keyholes at 25 yds. My mold was purchased new in 1990, the overall length is .607" with the same .110" from gascheck base to the first driving band.
BTW, Thanks for the tip on the primer trays, 25 years and someone finally tells me how to keep those little bullet organized!

Bryan
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  #11  
Old 01-01-2006, 03:43 PM
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Looked at the amount of work needed to shorten the mold...will wait for a 4-jaw chuck for the lathe and do it then...so will just "make do" while I wait.

Made a collet to clamp the bullets in the 3-jaw without destroying them, and lathed some samples to the "right" gas check length. While I was at it, lathed others noses to a much broader point..not quite a WC, but much wider, and the bullet short enough to be stable in a 1:16 twist.. Figure most of my small game is shot under 50yards, and that flat faced bullet (if it will group) at 1100-1400fps should do the trick nicely.
----
Friend dropped by an unmarked mold (other than .450 stamped on teh single cavity Al. blocks)...casts a 32cal Maxi Ball, so it could be a T/C mold. ANYWAY...the handles are brass (with wooden gripping sections) and work with that #225415.

Why brass handles?..seems like an inviation to over heat, char the wood, and loosen...but i'll try them.

Last edited by ribbonstone; 01-01-2006 at 03:45 PM.
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  #12  
Old 01-01-2006, 04:57 PM
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I am fasinated by the resourcefulness. Would not have a clue as to how to make a mold shorter.
This was a good read for me!
Cheezywan
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  #13  
Old 01-02-2006, 05:24 AM
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Ribbonstone,

Shortening your mold using a 4 jaw chuck is a good way to go. I've shortened a few molds that way and it works very well.

I too have an older 225415 single cavity mold that is similar in size to yours. About 10 years ago a friend purchased a 2 cavity 225415 which has the longer shank so Lyman has been making them that way for some time now. He shoots them in his .222 with good results.

Before you shorten your mold, you might want to see if a gas check will fit ok on a shortened gas check shank if you haven't already. If your mold's g.c shank is tapered, you might run into a fit problem. Hopefully not though.

Speaking of heavier .22 cast bullets in a 16" twist, strangely enough, I found that 3.8 grs. of 231 (1,550 f.p.s.) in the Hornet under a Lyman 59 gr. round nosed g.c. bullet would shoot into 1 1/2" @ 100 yards. But at 2,000 -2,400 f.p.s. groups would be noticably larger (?). Hmmmmm.

With .22 cast bullets I actually prefer single cavity molds ....refitted with a sprue plate that has a .06-.07" sprue hole. Using w.w. + 2% alloy, I can make 5 matchgrade bullets a minute (300 hr.) since the alloy solidifies within a few seconds in small sprue hole size. The faster casting cycle keeps the mold nicely up to temperature and allows me to achieve 99.9% bullet quality. Also, the smaller sprue makes for a much better bullet base. How sweet it is!

Happy new year,
John
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Last edited by John Kort; 01-02-2006 at 05:28 AM.
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  #14  
Old 01-02-2006, 05:42 AM
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Prefer the singles as well, but none were readily avaiable..and i got lucky in one respect as this mold started casting good bullets quickly (very quickly for a brand new mold).

Will get the 4 jaw. Have tested the cut down bullets and the gas check does go on when the shank is .04" shorter....it's a little tight, but the check does bottom out.

For most of the shooting i do with that mold, at 1100-1400fps, a gas check is not a must-have. Shot 1/2 of the dupply of old-mold #225415's withut the gas check and was pleased with the low-velocity loads...kick hem to the 1500 and above range, and a gas check is the only way to go.

Have a few 100 of the long-shanked bullets...once I get the mold shortened will run some comparison tests. Am temepted to lathe some of the long shanks in .01" steps run some side-by-side tests looking for the length that makes it go wild.
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  #15  
Old 01-02-2006, 12:35 PM
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Did the job..and with a 3-jaw chuck. Did have to spend a lot of time making out a circle from a chunk of old oak flooring (1 1/3" thick)...drawing out the rectangle for the mold bolocks to sit in...cutting the rectabgle out and splitting the outer circle into 3 parts (one for each jaw).

Wasn't turning it on center, was facing it, so all i needed was for it to (1) fit tight in the chuck (2) run real close to center so as not to vibrate the devil out of the lathe (3) run with the top face running flat and true.

Switch chuck jaws to the set that clamps on the outside, got it running flat and true, and lathed it back real slowly (very small facing cuts). Gave up on getting the plate-stop pin out of it's blind hole...cut it off and drilled it out (didn't want to leave the nub in there and have a hard spot while facing). Shortened it to within .002" of the old-style #225415...the lathed mold being the one slighly shorter..

Made a pin, buggered one end of it with a home made cross peen hammer, and drove it into the new blind hole (the slightly buggered part won't let it come out easily). Issue screw/washer was close to working, so rahter than make a thicker washer, shorted the end of the screw.

It's as close a match to the old short #225415 as I can make...you'd have a hard time telling the two bullets apart. Broke the new sharp edge on the outside of the mold blocks and re-attached them to those no-name brass/wood handles.

Ran a few bullets out of it today...not more than a handfull...then got the mold a bit hot and rubbed oil on the bright face (was already a bit dark from heat)...didn't want to quench them in oil and warp them. Pertty close to the Lyman finish.

gas checks do take a little more effort to snap on the new shank..it is slightly thicker now that it's shorter...but they do snap on and bottom out. beases are level...so it all this must have worked.

Hopefully, it will shoot as well as the old bullets did..hope to try it out in the next week.

Last edited by ribbonstone; 01-02-2006 at 12:40 PM.
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  #16  
Old 01-03-2006, 07:22 PM
klw klw is offline
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Decades ago I bought a particular Lyman mould. Don't remember which one. A few months later I decided I wanted another. Order a second. Got a noticeably different bullet out of the second mould. They were suppose to be two moulds for the same bullet but they weren't. I asked and asked why.

At least back then Lyman didn't have standardized drawings of any of their bullets. If a cherry wore out, or the machinest couldn't find it, he would literally look at the picture in the catalogue and make a cherry to match. And if the guy who made the new cherry didn't put it back where ever they kept cherries, the next time an order came in someone else would make yet another cherry.

Point is that at least at one time a given bullet mould could have maybe three or four cherries each of which made a slightly different bullet.
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  #17  
Old 01-03-2006, 08:02 PM
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Amazingly, this one is a near perfect match to the old one...it was just run into the mold blocks deeper forming a long gas check shank...thye did a good job of coping the old cherry, just ran it wrong (or ran it in deeper on design).

But they did seem to have an amazing number of variation...your explaination seems right. Not a great way of running a bussiness, but I can see it happening...after all, I've had to sit down and make tool that i couldn't find seveal times, only to find that tool later that week.

Good news is that is casts great now. It's a tiny bit shorter than it was yesterday. I made the finish too smooth the first time, and it just wouldn't vent well...so it took it all apart (including the frustrating pin in teh blind hole) and ran the bit across it's face very very lightly...just enough to leave a slightly less smooth surface. That did the trick, and now the bases fill out nicely.
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  #18  
Old 01-04-2006, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klw
Point is that at least at one time a given bullet mould could have maybe three or four cherries each of which made a slightly different bullet.
I sure enjoy reading storries like this. It adds pieces to the puzzle and more questions to be asked! Each year the manufacturers seem to get a little smarter and produce a little better equipment. Your experience reminds me of a letter to the editor in a 1970’s era American Rifleman: “Cast Bullets Are The Bunk”. I keep a copy of the letter in my notebook. With molds dropping bullets of different sizes a new cast bullet shooter would have a lot of trouble figuring out what was going wrong. A call or letter to Lyman would not help very much as Lyman would have no idea what size bullet you were working with. I guess I was pretty luck growing up with a few relatives and friends who had figured a lot of this out before I arrived!
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  #19  
Old 01-04-2006, 06:53 AM
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Ribbonstone,
Nice job on improvising with your 3 jaw chuck! Glad to hear that it turned out aok.

May I suggest that for the very best results in casting "match grade" .22 bullets, that you make a new sprue plate with .06-.07" sprue holes.

To get the sprue holes in the center of the bullet, you could use the 4 jaw chuck to get each of the cavities running true with a dial indicator. Then place the sprue plate on to the blocks and use a center drill to to start the hole.

KLW & William,
Thank you for the additional info. Fortunately, I was able to visit the Lyman factory back in 1983 when Ken Ramage was still there. It was pretty neat to get a grand tour of that historic place. I asked Ken about the variance that we had seen between the same bullet from different molds.

As I recall, He explained that when they made a new cherry, they would make it to cut the bullet form at the maximum diameter(s) they established for each bullet. Then as the cherry needed to be resharpened, the bullet diameter(s)would become smaller and once the cherry was resharpened enough times so that it was cutting the mold cavity at the minimum diameter, a new cherry was made.

John
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  #20  
Old 01-04-2006, 07:41 AM
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[QUOTE=
KLW & William, Fortunately, I was able to visit the Lyman factory back in 1983 when Ken Ramage was still there. John[/QUOTE]

John,
You bring up an interesting point about sprue plates. I am just reading a Loading Bench article by E. H. Harrison from the April 1979 issue of the American Rifleman entitled “Fitted Sprue Plates”. Harrison discusses several factors of what makes a good sprue plate and what can be done to improve the Lyman sprue plates. Harrison felt the thick aluminum plates such as those used by NEI were the best. I have to agree that NEI sprue plates are good. So are those on LBT molds by Veral Smith. His are thin and work far better than my first impression led me to believe.
Everyone leads a more exciting life than I do. You have visited Lyman and I have several friends who have toured Sierra and Hornadys facilities. I need to get of the house more often.
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