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  #1  
Old 11-03-2003, 09:20 PM
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Paper patching for the 30-30?


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I've got the 160 through 200 grain Lee .30 round nosed moulds and have been thinking lately, if I cast some bullets with them in straight WW metal, size 'em down to .3000 somehow and wrap 'em in a paper jacket would they shoot straight at 2000fps or am I just having delusions of grandeur again? Has anyone attempted this madness before?

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  #2  
Old 11-03-2003, 10:56 PM
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You'll likely deform the bullet by sizing down .010 to make accuracy poor, but heck, why not give it a try and let us know what you find out. I'm interested in learning something new.
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  #3  
Old 11-04-2003, 03:31 AM
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Funny thing about sizing paper patch bullets. You cannot be certain of the results until you try.
We have patched and sized a number of lube groove bullets with varying results.
The Lee 170 grain gas check bullet seems to work pretty well when patched. I suggest that you start with thick paper, cotton type typing paper. You can purchase this by the sheet at most stationers or office supply stores - not the discount places. I prefer 100% cotton. You might try one sheet of 100% and one of say 25%.
I suggest that you cut your patch just a little long and when rolled on that you fold the tail rather than twist it. This will give you a paper gas check. This has worked for us.
I also suggest that after the paper has dried that you lube the patched bullet with Lee case sizining lubricant. This is the white die makers wax that comes in tubes. If you need to size a lot, and you may not depending on your rifles throat, do it in two stages. We have opened several of the Lee push through sizers. These sizers have annular rings or machine marks at the entrance. We thought they would give problems with the patch but they do not.

After the patched bullet is sized the waxed patch will look like a ceramic insulator on the bullet. We have cut these off and the bullet has the weave of the paper engraved on it. I suggest softer bullet alloy. We use scrap .22 lr bullets. These cast well and make very good hunting bullets. You may be surprised at how well these lube groove bullets patch and shoot.

The Kragman who posts on this forum also shoots patched bullets but he, like my father prefers thin patches. Both of them use onion skin.
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  #4  
Old 11-04-2003, 05:12 AM
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Forty Four
If you have some, start off with between 7.5 and 8.5 grains of Alliant Unique. This should give you less than 1200 fps. there will be very little difference in velocity between a 16" an 20" barrel.
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  #5  
Old 11-05-2003, 03:24 PM
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Slim,

Thanks for the info. I need to be able to use the metal from clip-on wheel weights though. I live in So. CA where there's more tires on the road than stars in the sky.

I guess I need to acquire a Lee pass thru sizer (or two) in order to figure this out.

Thanks again,
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2003, 03:42 PM
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Regarding the Lee pass through sizers...

How are bullets supported when they are fed into the Lee pass thru sizers? Is there a holder that slips into the top of the press ram (as shell holders do) that aligns the bullet on its way into the die?

However the system functions, the ability to utilize the mechanical advantage of a sturdy reloading press is a definite plus over the Lyman 450 Luber/Sizer (or similar). What I would like to know before ordering dies however, are the possible disadvantages to the Lee push-thru system.

Thank you...
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Last edited by Forty Four; 11-06-2003 at 04:03 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-06-2003, 04:40 PM
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The Lee uses a simple punch that slides into the press ram, as a shellholder would. You might want to make sure the shellholder slot is good and clean in your press to help ensure the punch is not cocked to one side or the other. It really isn't super precise, so you should have any problem with that. The die mouth is slightly tapered to promote good alignment as the bullet is pushed through the die. The push through technique is superior to the Lyman/RCBS/SAECO sizing in my opinion, this is the same principal that the Star sizer works with, but the Star also lubes the bullets so it's more complex than a simple push through die on a loading press. I don't know if you will readily find Lee dies in the sizes you want, as they are not common sizes and will likely require you to order custom parts from Lee at $25 a die.
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  #8  
Old 11-06-2003, 06:38 PM
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I use a Lee .459 die to size paper patch bullets for the 45-70 and 458 WM. I lube them with the lube I make for grooved bullets, although many types will work. It is much easier to size the finished,i.e. the patched and lubed bullet, if you heat the die with a heat gun. They slide right thru without tearing the paper. I shoot an RCBS 550 gr paper patch bullet wrapped with computer paper. A good book is by Paul Matthews. He covers all the bases. It is a hoot to load up some 1800 fps 458 Win Mag rounds and cut loose at the steel plates. They make good rounds for breaking rocks down by the creek.

Paper patched bullets should be able to be fired at the same speed as a metal jacketed bullet of the same weight. The lead never touches the bore.
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  #9  
Old 11-06-2003, 06:59 PM
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Bigfoot,
you actually can size the bullet after it's been patched? That was something I hadn't thought of. Do you lose many bullets due to the patch tearing?
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  #10  
Old 11-06-2003, 10:06 PM
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So... if I order a .3000" sizing die from Lee would I have a good system for removing the driving bands on C309180R (for example)? Would I need a swaging lube? I've got several pounds of lanolin.

Regarding the patching material... I just got done "miking" a sheet of Fox River Anniversary Bond which is 100% cotton 20# bond and it measures .005", which is obviously too thick. However, I think I can still find a ream or two of that company's 9# Onionskin which is a tad over .002" thick and would therefore wrap twice around a .300" bullet to fill the grooves. Unfortunately, the onionskin is only 25% cotton and looks like it may be hard to handle wet. Fox River also has a 25% cotton onionskin they call erasable which has a texture to it... they call the finish "Air Dried Cockle", opposed to "Smooth".

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Last edited by Forty Four; 11-06-2003 at 10:19 PM.
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  #11  
Old 11-07-2003, 03:17 AM
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If the patch is lubed and the die heated slightly, hot to the touch, it will work without tearing any patches. As william iorg posted earlier after sizing the patch looks like ceramic on the bullet. If you peel the patch off you can see the impression of the joint in the bullet itself. The patches are pretty waterproof at this point so can be carried and handled better. The biggest problem is seating the bullet. Matthews shows a picture of a belling die he modified in his book. The bell has to be a very shallow angle to gently guide the patch into the case. I modified an RCBS die like this and then looked at the newwer Lee dies for 45-70 and they have the correct angle akready. I use the Lee expander/bell die for 45-70 and 458.

I find it satisfying to roll my own paper patches. Sort of a reverse technology thing. I have not experimented much with black powder loads and paper patching but I do shoot a Browning BPCR extensively so in the future I think it will be fun.
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2003, 03:39 AM
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The Lee push through sizers are easily opened up to most any diameter you wish. I use a split rod with crocus cloth. I clean the die and run a bullet through regularly to check the diameter.
I have no trouble sizing patched bullets in the Lee die. I use the thick 100% paper because I find it both easier to work with and stronger. When I need to reduce a bullet a significant diameter I use two dies and size in steps. The 170 grain Lee flatnose bullet drops from the mold about .309". Two wraps make it under .330" unsized. The paper stretches a little when you wrap. I am looking for about .314 or .315" for my Winchester Trapper. This leaves the bullet just snug in the throat. The front of the patch just engraves the rifling. A round chambered and then ejected will show a black ring around the front of the patch about 1/32" and black rifling marks. In my experiance a good snug fit in the throat is important. My patched rounds feed through the magazine just fine. I use the Lee cartridge case sizing wax as after sizing it makes the patch both tough and water resistant.
I do not size the bullet before patching. There is a good article on this process by Paul Mathews in the first Wolfe publishing Cast Bullet Annual. I believe it was also published in Handloader magazine. i do not have my index close at hand.
My NEI #38 167grain paper patch mold has annular rings in it along with a "boattail" base. This bullet is quite accurate in all thirty caliber rifles. I believe it is accurate because of the rings which allow the bullet metal to displace in the bore without a undue stress. I could be all wrong about this. Reasonable care in patching and sizing grooved bullets designed for lube and gas checks will give you good results.
Trying to reduce the bullet significantly in one pass will tear the patch.
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2003, 02:15 PM
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Slim,

I was planning on sizing WW bullets to bore diameter, then patching, possibly with a minor sizing operation to insure uniformity (and apply a lube) afterwards.

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Last edited by Forty Four; 11-08-2003 at 02:20 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-08-2003, 03:35 PM
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30 cal. patch

Forty Four, you would do best with a softer bullet than WW. Perhaps you can get some lead and mix it in. The PP softer pill will form it's self to the bore. I have gotten some good results using Freezer tape which is paper. I understand veral Smith used gummed computer labels. The thing about the paper is you want it to stay on the entire flight or fall away completly not far downrange. The composition is secondary.

Bigfoot, What bullet do you cast an then patch up to .459? I have a Danish Rolling block that I am working up loads for and I need to surface a proper sized pill to wrap. JBMauser
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  #15  
Old 11-09-2003, 03:11 AM
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JBMauser- It is from an RCBS paper patch mould. It is currently listed with Midway as a special order mould. Round nose, cup base, with soft lead it drops at.451" from the mould. The lands on my Browning BPCR are .450". It fits this gun well. I have used computer paper, tracing paper and bond typing paper. They all give different diameters and can be found 10-15' from the muzzle when shooting.
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