Ok guys, let's here some opinions. Why is there evidence of life on Earth millions of years before Genesis? I am a born-again Christian and have my own opinions, but I love to hear and think over other's thoughts and feelings of different issues. You never know, I could learn something! (Which usually is the case!)



Thanks!

Personnally I don't believe the earth is that old. Being familiar with Carbon dating it is not what it is cracked up to be. Even things counted in a Geli detector that are short lived isotopes can have as much as 95%error. This tells me all I need to know but bigger than that. We are the ones trying to figure out how God could do something as simple as baffle us with a time issue. Believing that God can not lie and that every word of the Holy Bible is absaolutely true I chose to believe that creation is true.

There is a theory with scriptures to suggest it's possibility that millions of years could have passed between Genesis 1 and 2. The Greek words there suggest something created perfect and then made a mess. The theory is that the earth was made without form, and dark by the fall of Lucifer and the battle in which he was cast to the earth. The bible does not go into a lot of detail about theses things because it is about God and mans' relationship not His relationship with angles or Gods' history before man.

It is because the Bible is wrong. Unfortunately many have become so obsessed with Biblical literalism that they ignore the important messages in the Bible while obsessing over historical [hysterical?] literary details.

We are admonished by the Bible itself to refrain from worshipping "graven images" yet that [a graven image] is exactly what the Bible has become for many. It is even produced by the technology of 'en-graving'. Almost daily I meet Bible-worshippers for whom biblical literalism is more important than the message of salvation.

It is not necessary to blindly believe every word in the Bible in order to believe the "Truth' in the Bible. My personal feeling is that those who insist or an 'all or nothing' approach to religion ultimately do more harm that good to the message in that many otherwise potential believers, when given that either/or ultimatum, are going to turn their backs and walk away.

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I have another question. Why did God give us brains and the power of reason if we were not supposed to use them?

WAGNER95696 ,where do I find out what parts of the bible are wrong or hystrical.Do I just throw away anything that doesn't seem posible to me.I respectfully think that is a very dangerous attitude.

" Why did God give us brains and the power of reason if we were not supposed to use them?"

Yes,I think we are to use our brains and reason.That is why God lets us make our own decisions.I am old enough to know I have made a lot of wrong ones.There are many different opinions in the world,all of them can't be right. The idea today seems to be whatever feels right must be right.To be a christian means there must be absolute right and absolute wrong.The bible is God's letter to us telling us what is right and what is wrong. When I made the decision to become a christian I began to read the bible, many of my opinions have changed about what is right and wrong.That is why we must study to find the truth,sometimes Greek and Hebrew to get the correct meaning.The good news is you don't need to be a scholar to make Jesus Lord(ROM.10-9&10).But we will all have to find God's wisdom to live the happiest,most succesful lives we can here on earth.

Quote "We are admonished by the Bible itself to refrain from worshipping "graven images" yet that [a graven image] is exactly what the Bible has become for many. It is even produced by the technology of 'en-graving'. Almost daily I meet Bible-worshippers for whom biblical literalism is more important than the message of salvation."

I must lead a sheltered life, I don't believe I have ever met anyone who worships the Bible. I have met many people who use the bible as a tool of worship, kind of an owners manual for life.


Quote "It is not necessary to blindly believe every word in the Bible in order to believe the "Truth' in the Bible. My personal feeling is that those who insist or an 'all or nothing' approach to religion ultimately do more harm that good to the message in that many otherwise potential believers, when given that either/or ultimatum, are going to turn their backs and walk away."

Not being a perfect being, (Christ was the only perfect man that has ever lived) I try to keep from adding to or taking away from the scriptures, they are the word of God! Who am I to take only what I want from the scriptures or add what I think "the bible really meant" IT IS THE WORD OF GOD.

Most scientist that purport that the earth is millions of years old also don't belive in the possiblity/reality of a worldwide flood, coincidince, I think not

__________________
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!

Not because of who I am, but because of what HE's done, not because of what I've done, but because of who HE is. -Casting Crowns

If we know God we know right from wrong. If we do not know right from wrong then we do not know God.

This is as true today as it was before the Bible was ever created. The Bible does not make it so and the absence of the Bible would not make it less so. Knowing God is not dependent upon the Bible. It is dependent solely upon a personal relationship with God. If one has a pesonal relationship with God it does not matter whether they have ever read the Bible. If one does not have a personal relationship it does not matter if they read the Bible every day.

Milk and then meat. How you chose to grow in your walk is up to you. The Bible is a source for that growth. I find it plays a big role in my walk and I find I think I know a lot until I read and know. I am glad I believe it is the infalible word of God. It takes a variable out of the equation for me.

Would we know Him without it? Probably. Only because He sent His Spirit to be our Helper. The Bible is a tool, freely given as are grace and salvation, freely given. Praise Jesus!

An interesting view SFT and closely resembling a belief of mine - That the more we understand about the physical world through science, the more we understand about God. The more and more we understand the physical make up and workings of ourselves and surrondings the greater we have utilized the gifts that God has given us. Furthermore, as we advance our ability to solve dilemas, sometimes creted through the finding of another solution, will shorten to the point where they are almost instantaneous and at that point we will we stand before God as accomplished human beings who used his gifts wisely and are rewarded with his presence. Evolution is a theroy, and just that, but we have witnessed evolution in nature and I hope man continues to evolve, in search of his creator.

Einstein said, I refuse to believe God plays dice with the universe. I paraphrased, but it shows very strongly that science and a spiritual belief to do not stand opposed to each other all of the time.

As for the bible. If Christ was the only perfect man to ever walk the earth, but never wrote a word of the new testement, and God never actually penned any of the first than I am to believe that some believe that each man that did contribute to it was made perfect by God, at least for some period of time, so that a translation was never lost and an idea or prohecy or story ever incorrectly put to paper. This would include each of the later translations and all of the men assigned to translate the words and to choose the books that would be included and those that would not be. I know that some will say "Yes, each time God worked through everyone of those people to guarentee the bible was perfect." But that is a bit more than I can swallow. My search is through more than the bible, it's through science and that which benefits man more than it harms him. Those two pieces together in my opinon take you further down the path than the writings alone.

This is my first time into the cross-wire forum. reading these posts helps me understand why I like this place so much.

Thanks for the opportunity to contribute.

Well, this is fraught with trouble, getting into this. Does it matter, really? It's like reading the end of the story. Does it really matter how God ends the deal, whether the Rapture is a separate and pre-end event or not. . .etc. If we are with God and God lives in us, then we're ok. It's fine to ask questions. But it's a lot like me shooting my BLR .308. Why oh why does this short barrel produce higher velocity than it should, and others experience the same thing. We can talk about it, ponder it, research it, but perhaps never know for sure. It just does it.

What has puzzled me has not been the age of the earth from carbon dating. Chief RID is right. That's a crap methodology. The one that gets me is the measurement based on the distance of stars. We measure their distance based on doppler shifts, which I don't understand, then calulate time from the speed of light, indicating that they are indeed millions of years away from us. I do accept the literal word of Genesis, since the Hebrew words do mean a day when they say a day, in all other places. So let's be consistent and not make excuses for God.

We'll get to ask Him when we get there, and have all eternity to understand His drawings! Plan for that first.

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If fishing involved firearms, I'd fish.

¡A Dios!
JR

Is the Earth 6000 years old or milions? I don't know. However if God wanted to create the earth in 6 days, there would have been nothing stoping Him, so I am happy to accept that. One thing to concider is the sun was only created on the fourth day (light and darkness on the first) and it is the sun which we use to count our days, so how long were the first three days?
I find it a lot easer to belive that all we see was created with a plan in mind than to belive some dust fell off a comet from which life started as some people are suggesting.

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I,believe we,all men, inherantly know right from wrong,good from evil. I believe this is a gift from God.If we act in love or goodness,or compassion we are acting as the Father would ask.My faith,is that God will do His part,if we do ours. He gives us the bible to show us how! MY favorite verse is in in the book of Ephesians3:14-21 For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom His whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge - that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work within us, to Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

A very dangerous attitude indeed Bogart.

Wagner, you're standing on dangerous ground my friend. You would be wise not to attempt to influence others with your beliefs. See Matthew 18:6.

Good discussion all. I am humbled daily by the things I don't know or understand but more by the way I act and the things I say. I know better but still I look back at the end of the day and wonder how I can be such a fool. I do take heart that I am in good company on this and I have a Savior that lets me start over and over.

I am a know-it-all of the worst type but I realize that"the more I think I know, the less I know". I repeat this at times when I can remember to do so and it helps me keep my mouth shut when I would open it and spew forth my astounding wisdom. I don't like crow and if I keep my mouth shut, unless I know what I am talking about to be a fact, I don't have to eat any.

I like you Chief RID. . .it is interesting to think back even ten years ago. . .I believe some things differently than I did then. So my beliefs can certainly change. But, what does that mean? Do my beliefs have anything at all to do with what is true? Absolutely not, and this is where folks get off on the wrong track. Belief does not establish truth, contrary to what Oprah once said. Otherwise, if I believed I was a mushroom, no amount of DNA evidence to the contrary would or could change that. So what does all this mean?

Truth is established by something outside of our beliefs. We read and learn and alter our beliefs in order to line up with the truth. The first truth that we all contend with, imo, is that there is something beyond this life. If not, let's stop the pretense, quit working, get out clothes off, and party on! Since we do believe that there is something after, we then must come to grips with how we got here and where we're going. Even little children pretty soon stumble onto God. And as we examine Him (as if we really could!) we seek ways to know Him. It isn't long after that we realize that He's not hiding from us, but has indeed revealed Himself to us. The Bible can handle human disparagement. It stands alone as the only accurate book of all time, withstanding any and all attacks. Research it yourself.

The end of all this comes then. We begin to align our beliefs to what is true, what God has revealed to us in His word. His word, not ours. His truth, not ours. Truth is established by what is true, regardless of our beliefs. . .

I hope none of this is contentious sounding. I don't mean it that way. It's just that many people don't think logically anymore, and we need to establish some foundations for logical debate. If Ford and GM figure you need an owner's manual. . .don't you figure God does?

__________________
If fishing involved firearms, I'd fish.

¡A Dios!
JR

Speaking about logic. Lets think logically about creation. Will you subject God to a science box-only true if our falible minds can conceive or prove it, or will we subject science to a God box-allowing Him to work outside the bounds of science and our understanding? How one answers will have an impact on ones belief. Who will be god? You or God? Honestly my (or your) opinion/belief will not change the truth (of creation or any subect). For example, my heartfelt opinion/belief that 2+2=5 does not change the truth, that the answer, by definition is 4. As a point of interest to me, I can not comprehend how one that understands the definition of science, can hold to a faith system like evolution and continue to feel in any way that they are intellectually honest. As to one point in the original post, life did exist before Genisis the book. Not billions of years by any stretch more like afew thousand. The book was written by Moses many years after the act of creation. Nit-picky maybe, but true.

Catholic school for eight years. Had the bible beaten into my head for all eight of those years. I'm 51 years old now. I've had a few revelations in my time. At the risk of speaking outside of the group, I'll list some.

1) The bible tells of a good way of life. Good rules, etc. But it was written, and rewritten and translated and retranslated and rewritten..... BY MAN.

2) The power of religion has caused some of the most horrific periods in the history of man.

3) GOD CREATED EVERYTHING, INCLUDING EVOLUTION!

4) Life is much simpler than we sometimes make it. The "golden rule" pretty much covers it.

5) God gave us free will. Its up to us to use it wisely.

JMHO