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Six Months to Change an Eternity

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Hello guys. I know its been forever since most of you have seen me on here. I've been going through a lot in my life and I'd like to share it with you. This is going to be a very long post and it will have a lot of scripture in it but please take the time to study over it. It took me six months to come to the choice that I did. Please read over all this and look at it with open hearts, don't hold on to what we have been taught by pastors/sunday school teachers/priest or anyone one else. Lets go back to the Work of God and what it has to tell us today.

What does it take to change a lifetime of learning and experiences? What is required to drive an individual to throw out years of instruction, years of influence and a lifestyle? Surely for any rational person to turn their back on all of this there must be authenticated proof that they were wrong in all that they believed. Proof that was so hardcore, so evident that upon its discovery the previous way of thinking must be discarded, and this new truth, new philosophy must be accepted and taken on full course.
Lets take the issue of the world being flat as an example. For hundreds of years it was common concept that the world was flat. No one questioned this or could make a valid argument against it until a couple of sailors, Columbus being one of the more famous ones, sailed around the world. This concept, or worldview, could only be confronted by the hard evidence these sailors produced. Still even with convincing evidence many did not believe. In fact it took years for the majority of society to accept that the world was round. But their unwillingness to yield to this fact had no change on the actual shape of the earth, it was round whether they wanted to believe it or not.
Today I want to talk to you about a truth that I have found. This truth isn’t one that just appeared to me in some dramatic epiphany, its not something that I was merely told and taken on face value, rather it was the culmination of six months of hard study and soul searching. Facts were presented to me and I have toiled over them for sometime. Studying these facts and the opinions of those who supported them; also I spent a good bit of time reading every antithesis there was to this line of thinking I could find. I wanted so bad to find a way to dismiss all of these ‘facts’ that had been presented to me. I was forced into a very common situation that has lead to what many will see as an uncommon reaction: Here I was with numerous facts that supported a thesis. I tried as hard as I could but could not dismiss or disprove the facts presented. Therefore I was forced to accept this thesis as truth and any consequences that this thesis would create.

Before we go any further in our discussion of what exactly I’m talking about there are a few understandings we must come to if any progress in the situation is expected. These ‘understandings’ basically have to do with the Word of God and what you believe it to be. Now I want to be very specific in pointing out that what we believe about something and what something is can be two very different things and one has no affect on the other. I will use an example I have used before b/c it is simple at to the point. If the two of us are looking at a rock in my hand and I tell you that I believe that this rock is really a bird does my belief change the properties of that rock? Does my wholehearted faith that this rock is really a bird cause it to grow wings and fly out of my hand? Of course not! A rock is a rock and no amount of faith or belief or feelings in my heart will change what it is. And so it is with the Word of God. The Word of God is our authority on everything; it is our litmus test if you will, a standard that we hold everything else against. The Word is simple and easy to understand when we look at it with the right mindset. What is that mindset you ask; I really believe it to be that of an innocent child. Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

A mindset with no pre-conceived notions about what worship, church, or God should be like. A mind that is open to what the Bible has to teach us. I really believe we have gotten too smart for our own good. Jesus taught in parables that were easy to understand, if you try. None of his listeners had a fraction of the education that we have, they were simple people that took heed to a simple gospel. Another extremely important truth we must confess is that we don’t get to choose how scripture is interpreted. It’s very convenient to take a verse and choose not to believe what it says, by choosing to interpret it in a different way. I think this is probably the copout of our generation. Again I want to go back to 1 plus 1 equals 2. No matter how I choose to see it, 1 and 1 will always give you two. I want to post some scripture for you to read over, please read and try to understand it. It really floored me when I came across it recently. I knew I had read it before, but never understood it until recently.

1st Peter 1:19-21 19
And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

God’s Words was spoken to holy men, who were moved to write it down by His Spirit. This Word was confirmed by the Spirit and we are told to heed it, that is to follow it, as a light illuminating a dark place. And friends that surely is what this world is, a very dark place that needs the Lord. We are told specifically that it is NOT of any private interpretation!

Did you here that, it plainly says we cannot choose what we think a verse says, we cannot twist it to our advantage. There is scripture that talks about men twisting the word, teaching false doctrines, lets get on to that. You ever wonder if you are being taught the correct things in your church? Ever try and compare your church’s doctrines to what the Bible teaches? Recently I was challenged to do just that and what I found rocked my world. The Bible warns in many places about false teachers and false doctrines. In fact if we look in scripture the very first sin was that of deception. Not just any normal trickery, but a deception of what God had actually said about a matter. Look in Gen. Ch. 3, the devil says things like “Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?” and when Eve replies that they are not to touch the tree in the middle of the garden or they will die he deceives her saying "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." You see friends the Devil doesn’t want us to know what the Word of God says. He wants us to be confused, to argue over it. He wants us to think it is more complicated than it really is. God is the opposite of this, He wants us to know His truth, to understand exactly what He demands of us this is why He gave us the Bible. God and God alone gets to make up the rules, and He has presented them to us.

Isaiah 45:19
I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in vain.' I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right.

Ephesians 6:11
11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.

1 John 1:6
If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.



Acts 28:24-26
24Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26" 'Go to this people and say,
"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

We are warned several times in the Bible that we are not to put our trust in men, men are fallible creatures that can lead us astray.

Jeremiah 9:4-6
"Beware of your friends; do not trust your brothers. For every brother is a deceiver, and every friend a slanderer. Friend deceives friend, and no one speaks the truth. They have taught their tongues to lie; they weary themselves with sinning. You live in the midst of deception; in their deceit they refuse to acknowledge me, " declares the LORD.

Jeremiah 5:30-31 "A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land: The prophets prophesy lies, the priest’s rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?

Did you catch that, Priest, that is pastors, preachers whatever you want to call it, teaching by their own authority, and the people loved it. Maybe the preacher is going on the association’s authority on the subject, or on denomination’s general stance on an issue. We are told to let the Bible be our guide/authority for everything.

2 Corinthians 11:3
3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Its important to note that while we may have the best of intentions, or as the verse says, sincere and pure devotion to Christ, we can be lead astray by the great deceiver and not have a clue.

Romans 16:17
17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people

Deception is never ugly or odd on the outside, it always seems right, seems like the correct way to go. We must be strong in our minds and our understanding of the scriptures or stand chance to falling into the deceiver’s traps.


2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

It’s a scary thought, but we must realize that Satan’s agents may be our teachers, pastors, and friends. How are we to distinguish between the two? We must use the bible and its teachings as our guide.

Isaiah 56:10
Israel's watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep.

Hosea 4:6
6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
"Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.


Notice what will destroy us is a lack of knowledge. The knowledge is there for us to find, its up to us to look for it, is says we have rejected it, which means it must be there for us to reject it.

Isaiah 59:4
No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity. They rely on empty arguments and speak lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

Matthew 7:15
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.


Matthew 15:9
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men


Galatians 1:10
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ

Galatians 4:17
17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them.


We are told there are false teachers spreading lies, that no one is standing up for the truth. We are told in Matthew 15:9 that people are worshiping God in Vain. This is key, obviously there is a correct way to worship God and He requires that of us or this verse wouldn’t be there; also of not is that we are warned against following the rules or traditions taught by men. This concerns me the most! How many denominations have rules and guidelines that are set up by their founders, mere men. Galatians 1:10 tells us to seek the approval of God, not men.


John 8:43-45
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!



I know I have thrown a lot of verses out, and really I haven’t even gotten into the point of this post, but like I said before some ground work must be laid. We must understand that:
The Word of God is His inspired message to us.
This Word is not open to any interpretation.
God wants us to understand His word and has made it simple for us to understand if we approach it with the right attitude.
People will try and deceive us, telling us the Bible really doesn’t say what it clearly says.


Now to the point of this whole post, this great truth that I have discovered; it is salvation and what the Bible teaches is required to receive it. I grew up immersed in mainstream Chrurchianity. Raised in a Southern Baptist church, at age 12 I committed my life to Christ and was baptized about a week later. I grew up going to church just about every time the door was open and I fortunate to learn a great deal about God and the bible. Went to college, got married and ended up back in my wife’s hometown and joined the church we were married in, the local Methodist congregation. I really enjoyed the church, the people, the programs and the openness the church had.
Through a reconnection with an old high school friend Lauren O. and her husband Nathan I was invited to join an online discussion group hosted by Nathan. This discussion group was set up to talk about social, political and religious topics of the day. This was right up my alley as I loved a good debate so I joined the group and jumped right in.
One of the topics quickly turned to what is required for salvation. I found a member of the group had a stance on salvation that I adamantly disagreed with. I saw this as a great opportunity to set him straight. We entered into a lengthy debate over what exactly does God require for us to receive His grace and mercy of salvation. In my pride I saw this as an opportunity to set him straight. This turned into a six-month discussion/study where we debated back and forth, both on the group page, in emails and over the phone. I need to confess something to every one of you. I was wrong; baptism is required for salvation. Jesus taught this, his disciples taught this and this is evident in the scriptures. I plan to fully disclose this in the following passages and my commentary on them. This is the truth that I have found and I want to share it with you, please read the verses with an open heart and mind. I know it can be hard, it was for me, very hard. I have had years of instruction from men on what it takes to be saved, I even taught others this same doctrine of men. For me only something as powerful as the word of a holy and perfect God could break me free of it and it is my prayer that it will do the same for you.

BELIEF:
We must believe the Jesus is the son of God, that He was sent to this earth to take our place, our punishment for our sins. We must believe that He lived a perfect life, was killed and on the third day arose from the grave. Verses that support this:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 1:12 But to all who have received him--those who believe in his name--he has given the right to become God's children

Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved you and your household."

There are others, but these three spell it out very simply.


REPENTANCE:
Once we recognize that we have sin in our life we are told to repent of it. To repent is defined as to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better.

Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord

Acts 17:30
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent

2 Cor 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near

Clearly these verse show that repentance is part of the process that leads to salvation.


CONFESSION OF OUR SINS AND THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST
We are told rather plainly again that we are to confess our sins and to confess that Jesus is the Christ, that is God’s chosen messiah.


Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness

Ok so far I’m sure 99% of you are with me. Most of you have probably heard these three things your whole lives I know I did. But there is something that has been left out from everything I was taught for some reason. Baptism is the final step in the salvation process; it is incomplete without it. Just as salvation would be incomplete without a confession of Christ or without you repenting of your sins. In fact the Bible says that baptism saves you. (I promise it does) Now I know most of you are probably rolling your eyes right now, but please stop for a moment. Either the Bible supports this position or it doesn’t; it’s that simple and I want to show you how it does.


Lets start at the beginning to get a bit of a back ground on where baptism gets its roots. In Judaism whenever a gentile person wanted to convert to Judaism there were a few things required of him. One if he was male he was to be circumcised, two they performed a process called t'vilah in which they would be immersed in and out of a mikveh (this was a ritual bath that was supposed to be roughly 200gals and the person was submerged and then lifted out of the water) and thirdly a understanding of Jewish laws and principles must be shown. This Mikveh was basically a Jewish baptistery. It was also used for ceremonial cleansing of things considered unclean. So even in early Judaism we see a form of baptism being used to one bring people into the faith and two cleanse unclean things. Not that the water had special power, but that is what God commanded the Israelites to do to become clean and enter into the Jewish faith.
Fast-forward to John the Baptist. He is preaching before the start of Jesus’ ministry. John teaches a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins,

Mark 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Notice this baptism is for the forgiveness (that’s what remission means) of sins.

Yet he recognizes that his baptism is incomplete, that there is one coming after him that will complete it. It is incomplete because Jesus hasn’t died and risen from the dead yet.

Mark 1:7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit

Jesus comes to John to be baptized. John tries to stop him pleading that it was himself that needed to be baptized by Jesus but Jesus rebuked him with this:

Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.

Did Jesus have any sins that needed to be forgiven, no none at all. He did it to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus is never going to ask us to do anything He didn’t do himself. That’s what makes Jesus such a personal Savoir; He went through everything we will on this earth, even baptism.


Let us now look at Jesus’ conversation with Nichodemus. Nichodemus was a Pharisee one of the rulers/overseers/teachers of the Jewish faith. Nichodemus comes to Jesus at night with some very important questions and Jesus gets right to the point with the man.

John 3:1-2 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
Nic points out that the Pharisees realize that Jesus has come from God, but he has come to Jesus in the cloak of darkness so the others won’t see him. Jesus doesn’t even give him a chance for small talk He tells Nic: vs 3“Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” This confuses Nic a little bit, and then Jesus clarifies Himself vs 5” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Lets stop here and discuss a few things. This being born of the water and the Spirit is talking of baptism. Remember Nicodemus is a Pharisee, an expert in Jewish laws and customs; he most assuredly would be familiar with the t'vilah that we discussed earlier. Also at this time John the Baptist had been making a huge fuss with the Pharisees over the baptism he was teaching. This being born of water does not refer to natural child birth. First of all it makes no sense. Jesus gave Nicodemus a sentence with qualifer and a promise. It would make no sense for one of the qualifiers to be something that every person on earth has done, then it by deffinition is no longer a qualifer. If I told you that you could be a part of my club if you were born and if you could count to 100, would that first part make any sense to you. Also look at it this way: if you have to be born naturally as part of the requirements to enter the kingdom of God, what about babies that die in their mother’s womb. Do they go to **** becauce they didn’t get to be born? Of course not, those babies are sinless and go to heaven. This is another reason that makes the idea of Jesus making natural birth one of his prerequistes to enter His kingdom not hold water.


Lets move one to
Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Ok lets take the emotion out of this and make it a simple logic sentence:

If 'A' and 'B' then 'C'. BUT If not 'A' then Not 'C'.

1.) This states their are two qualifiers ('A' & 'B') that must be met to achieve 'C'.
2.) This also states that if 'A' is not met, 'C' cannot be achieved.
3.) The second sentence says nothing about what happens if 'B' isn't met, yet this is irrelevant due to the fact that in the first sentence to acquire 'C' BOTH 'A' and 'B' must be met.

So by using simple logic and Jesus' own words, yes baptism is required for salvation


How many of us have sat in a church service and heard the sinner’s prayer. This set of words we are supposed to say to become a Christian. Something along the lines of

‘Dear God, I realize that I have sinned and that my sin separates me from you. I believe that you sent Jesus to take my punishment for my sins and that he was crucified and raised from the dead on the third day. Lord I’m sorry for my sins and ask you to forgive me and make me a new creature. I claim the salvation that you offer in Christ and commit my life to you. In Jesus’ name, Amen.’

And then bam you’re a Christian and saved from your sins. Do you realize nowhere in the bible is this example given? Nowhere do you find someone doing this and then being called a Christian? Let’s take a look at the first message that was preached to a group of people by the disciples. Lets take a look at what they told the masses that was required of them to do to be saved. Instead of quoting the whole first part of Acts Chapter 2 realize that Peter had just preached to a crowd who Jesus was, and what He did on the cross. Using some of the Old Testament to prove that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

The people were cut to the heart and Peter was very direct with what he told them to do.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Please lets take it straight from the word of God and not what we have been taught our whole lives. Whose name are we baptized into? Jesus Christ. What are we baptized for? The remission (forgiveness) of sins. And what shall you receive? The gift of the Holy Spirit. Stop and compare this to Jesus’ words in John 3.


Lets skip forward a little in Acts to the story of Phillip and the Ethiopian Its is found in Acts 8 26-38 to keep things short I’m going to paraphrase the first part. Phillip is told to go into the desert by an angel of the Lord. He goes and finds an Ethiopian going down the road in a chariot reading from Isaiah. We will pick up in verse 30:
So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. The place in the Scripture which he read was this:
“ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth.”[a]
So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Now at this point all we know is that Phillip preached Jesus to him. Whatever preaching Jesus entailed the Ethiopian felt a strong desire to be immediately baptized. What was Phillips response?

Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.


Notice that the Ethiopian Eunuch needed someone to explain to him the scriptures and give him instruction. The Bible simply says Philip “preached to him Jesus”. It does not record his actual words. But the eunuch who understood nothing before Philip taught him, responded by asking to be baptized. This directly implies Philip taught him about baptism and baptism was a part of Philip’s message in “preaching Jesus.” Notice also that both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water. And they came up out of the water. Philip did not “sprinkle” him. Philip fully immersed the eunuch in physical water.


How about Paul and his conversion? What can this teach us about baptism and what it does? Lets take a look at the story of his encounter with our Lord on the road to Damascus.

Acts 22: 6-16
Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid,[a] but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

There is a very subtle truth hidden in these verses that I had looked over in the past. Saul comes face to face with the Lord Jesus Christ. He realizes all that he has done has been so very wrong. He is told that he is to go into a city and wait to be told what he must do. For three days Paul fasts and prays (Acts 9). He meets Jesus face to face, obviously he believes that He is the Christ. For three days he fasts and prays blind. I’m sure he was begging for forgiveness for all the horrible things he had done as a persecutor of the Church. So here he is, he has faith, I’m sure he’s asked for forgiveness, yet what do Ananias tell him he must do? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ Don’t you see, he still had sin! And the only way to wash that sin away was to be baptized.


Lets read a little more about what baptism does for us from Paul in the book of Romans

Romans 6: 3-8
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Ok, another question and answer time.
What are we baptized into? Christ Jesus and His death.
Therefore how were we buried with Him? Through baptism into death and likewise we are raised into a newness of life by the Father through this baptism. Look at verse 5, ‘for if we have been united together in the likeness of His death (we just saw this is done through baptism) then certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.” The body of sin is done away with through baptism (this death figure mentioned in verse 3 &4) that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Take a strong look at verse 8 Now if we died with Christ, (which in verses 3& 4 it says we do through baptism, not anything else), then we believe that we shall also live with Him.


Titus 3:4-5
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

How does God save us? Through the washing of regeneration, regeneration means new life. Doesn’t Romans 6 paint a picture of us dying to an old life and being buried through baptism to be raised into a new life? Doesn’t this washing insinuate baptism?


1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor *********, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Again here is another verse that talks of this washing away of sin. The same way Paul was told to “Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins” Very similar to the way Peter instructed to the people to “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission (forgiveness)of sins”



I know everyone is probably thinking that it would be great if the bible just said that baptism saves you. That would be a simple command that we could follow right? Well it does.

1 Pet 3:20b-21
in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype, which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

That’s right baptism saves us. Not by some special washing of your body, not by some work we do, but by us doing what God has told us to, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism isn’t a work we do, really someone else is baptizing you. You chose to believe in Christ, You chose to confess Him, You repent of your sin, which requires a turning around of your life, and You can chose to be baptized. All these things have to fit together or we might as well throw the bible out.


All of this has come through process of studying a praying over these verse for the last 6 months. I’ve studied many commentaries on these verses some in support some in opposition. I finally had to throw out all of what men said about baptism. I started looking at just the verses on their own. Reading the conversion stories in Acts they all mention baptism, Jesus stated its importance and the Apostles echoed it in their writings. I tried as hard as I could for the last month or so to dismiss it and I couldn’t.

Nov 8th I was baptized for the remission of my sins. Not because of anything I was told by anyone other than the fact that the bible makes the case that I needed to. I’m telling you 6 months ago I went into this with full intentions of proving Nathan wrong that baptism wasn’t required, and after a long study instead I found out just how wrong I was. Life is funny like that. At age 12 I professed Christ, said the sinners’ prayer. And was baptized. My baptism was incomplete/incorrect. Why? It was done for the wrong reason. When the preacher baptized me he asked me two questions. 1 “Matt, do you come here tonight because you want everyone here to know that you’re a Christian.” I said yes, 2 “Matt do you promise to be faithful to the Lord and Serve Him?” I said yes again and then he baptized me. When I was baptized I believed that my sins were already forgiven, that baptism wasn’t for forgiveness of my sins, that it was an outside representation of what Christ had done in my life, that it was so that everyone would know that I’m a Christian. Please find that for me in the bible. You won’t, what you will find is that we are baptized for remission of sins to receive salvation. I went to the church, requested baptism for the remission of my sins and was baptized. It was so simple, yet one of the hardest things I’ve ever done, and I don’t say that lightly. It was done quickly and most importantly biblically.

Please feel encouraged to reply to this thread, I’m not going to jump out at anyone or be rude or anything like that. I just want the truth to be known. Jesus said He is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him.
I would love to talk to any of you about this. Especially if you think I’m way off. Please lets sit down and look at what the bible has to say about it. I want to leave you with a few verses.


1 Corinthians 10:12
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall


Titus 1:13-15
13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

Galatians 4:16
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
 
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#2 ·
Amen

Wow Mattpair, I have read your whole post and it was a joy to read. what ever path you take and however long you take GOD will be there for you, as he will for all of us.

All i have to ask is will you still target shoot, hunt and reload.



You have a good one Mattpair.
 
#3 ·
I have also read your whole post. This must be a great time in your life. You speak as one touched by the grace of the Lord.

Please don't lose the feeling you have as it will carry you through life in it's most difficult times.

God bless you brother in Christ.
 
#4 ·
I went through a similiar period in my life when I researched baptism. I was raised a baptist where baptism was only by immersion and only for mature converts. I was considering joining a church that bapitised infants. I really researched what the bible had to say about baptism and read several books on the subject that argued for and against different viewpoints. I came to a quite different conclusions than you did.

I relate new testament baptism as a sign and seal of the new covenant in Jesus's blood just as circumcision was a sign and seal of the Abrahamic covenant in the OT. I get this view from an honest and careful examination of the bible. I considered the arguments made my many good scholars of the bible but compared them all against the scripture itself.

I would mention that I disagree with your statement that the bible is easy to understand. Yes, there are certain basics that are pretty evident and plain. But, there are alot of other things in the bible that can be quite confusing and difficult to understand, too. There's been many very scholarly and smart folks who have honestly researched baptism and other issues in the bible and reached different conclusions. If it was really so simple and easy to understand, I don't think there would be so many different opinions on the topic. I think it's wrong to count all those faithful Christians who hold different beliefs on secondary and tertiary matters as false teachers.

Anyway, I don't believe a Christian's view of baptism is critical to their salvation. Certainly it's an important issue and worth discussing. But it is not worth separating and fighting over and tossing about accusations of false teaching.

One thought strikes me. The thief on the cross next to Jesus....when was he baptized for remission of his sins?

Anyway, it's good for all of us to constantly search the scriptures and challenge our beliefs and prove to ourselves why we believe what we do and be willing to change our beliefs if God's Word supports such and adjustment.
 
#5 ·
Kart29

One thought strikes me. The thief on the cross next to Jesus....when was he baptized for remission of his sins?
Kart:

I don't believe he needed baptism as he was personally invited by Jesus to be with Him in heaven that same day. As God he certainly could dispense with baptism as a requirement for heaven. Look at Enoch, he was taken up by God the Father way back in the Old Testament.
 
#6 ·
Well, I have also been personally invited by Jesus to be with him in heaven - specifically and individually called. All believers have been. No difference there. So, why was the requirement waived for the thief? How could the thief become regenerate without the water baptism? If it could happen for the thief on the cross, why not everybody else? Isn't it against God's nature to change his mode of operation?

I don't see the correlation with Enoch and Elisha not experiencing death and your point about God making exceptions to the requirements for salvation in extenuating circumstances.

It seems before I could accept the proposed view of baptism, I would first need to change my view of salvation. The proposed view would suggest that I need to act on my faith and repent of my sins before I am regenerate. According to my understanding of the doctrines of original sin and salvation, this is totally impossible. The bible clearly teaches I am completely dead in my sin, blinded in my understanding and by nature incapable of seeking God. First, I must be regenerated and given new life before I can exercise my faith and repent.

So, while I'll agree that taken at face value, many parts of the bible, when viewed in the isolation of their immediate context, clearly say that salvation is not possible without baptism, that interpretation of those passages conflicts with the volumes and volumes of other passages which teach otherwise about salvation. We should always seek to interpret scripture in light of scripture. If a particular interpretation of a passage in the scripture violates clear teachings in other passages of the scripture, we must change our interpretation of the passage in question. We must start with a firm understanding of the central, core, foundational issues in the bible and build upon them to correctly interpret passages of the bible that deal with lesser mportant issues. Errors in doctrine usually seem to come from focusing on secondary issues such as baptism before having that solid base of primary issues to start from.

I'm not not really all that concerned about one's view of baptism - what it is and what it does, how and by whom it should be administered, etc.. I obviously have my own views on it and recognize that other folks are equally firm in differeing views. But, I am greatly concerned about one's view of salvation and how it is acheived.

I believe it is chiefly the International Church of Christ that claims the bible says baptism is required for salvation, right?

There ARE many seemingly obvious contradictions in the bible where a simple, child-like acceptance of a statement in scripture are in direct conflict with another statement. It is NOT always easy to understand.
 
#7 ·
Matt,
Great to hear from you again! You spent quality time in God's Word and I thank you for sharing your findings and scripture to support it. I'm still not sure that Baptism is a requirement and I'm a Baptist. But give me more time to study what you have written and pray about it. Anyway I can tell it has had a GREAT affect on you. The Holy Spirit has surely annointed you my Brother.
God bless,
Greg
 
#8 · (Edited)
Matt
I appreciate your passion in the word. The Bible is a complex work which is best understood with the guidence of the Holy Spirit. I have often marvelled at studying a passage in the Word and pulling a certain understanding from it. Then, years later, reviewing that passage again and coming away with a very different, but applicable understanding. An example would be how many ways the Beatitudes can be applied? Personally, for strength? Logical progression in the maturity of the faith? Just like any three dimensional shape, the Bible will become clearer when experience, need, the Holy Spirit or other factors influence our position of site at it.

As far as God changing his approach, that has and will again change. It is not against God's nature to change his mind. He had a personal relationship with Adam and Eve in the Garden until sin entered. His first approach was a covenant with Abraham as well as the Law for redemption. This did not work. At the proper time He provided Christ, the sacrificial lamb. Now, in the age of Grace we are saved by our trust, commitment and devotion to acceptance of His son. During the coming Millenium, after His Son's return there will be another time when personal relationships with God will be restored only to have that fail again prompting the final judgement.

In the Old Testament God used direct communication with Adam, Abraham, Moses etc. Miracles of nature occured to show His presence. Unmistakable miracles that could not be assigned to any source but Him. When Christ walked the Earth, he had miracles regarding nature, demons as well as healing miracles, again, seen by many, fully attributable to God. In this day God is not working in that manner, though He could if he wanted.

Regarding Baptism, this becomes a Chicken and Egg arguement. What must come first? First, you must confess your sins, the Bible, in New Testament repeatedly calls the believer to confess their sins. The Blood of Christ, not water, washes those sins away. After the confession the Baptism was always used as a public proclamation of the salvation. Note the Pentacost, when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles they did not run and get baptized. No where in the Bible are the Disciples or the Apostles described as being baptized. Christ was baptized, but he had no sin. In your arguement, that baptisim was a waste, no sins were washed away. Baptism is an ordinance of the faith, similar to communion, it represents our salvation, a public declaration of our salvation, but comes after we have confessed our sins. Salvation is a one step process. The subequent events such as baptism and communion or ordinances that we partake in as a rememberance or proclamation to remind us of our birth into the family of God.

Hope this helps.

Brad S
Hebrews 10:39
 
#9 ·
Kart29:

With all due respect how would you explain Jesus allowing the thief the gift of salvation and a reward of being in heaven on the same day he died alongside Jesus without being baptized?

I also disagree with you that God, the all knowing, all Everything can not change His mind whenever He wants to. Are you limiting what God can do?
 
#10 · (Edited)
All due respect back at you. I understand these discussions challenge some of our most closely held beliefs. It's easy for me to get angry if someone challenges something I feel so passionately about. But, through honest open discussion we can all benefit by either learning something new or become more firm in what we already believe.

I would explain the thief receiving the gift of salvation the same way anyone and everyone else throughout the history of man has received salvation, through faith in God's covenant of grace - established way back in Genesis 3 when the atoning work of the Messiah was first pictured and promised. Since water baptism is not a basic requirement for salvation, there is really nothing to explain. Apparently, Jesus recognized the thief's faith and by his words merely acknowledged the faith and salvation that the Holy Spirit had already produced in the thief's heart.

mattpair asks that we take the simplest, most easily understood interpretation of the passages he cites for his arguments. There are several examples of Jesus specifically telling people that their sins have been forgiven with no record of them having been baptized. If I accept the simplest explanation of the passages which mattpair cites in his arguments, which seem, on their face, to say that remission of sins requires baptism, then I have to do some real twisting of the scriptures and mental gymnastics to explain these passages where sins were forgiven without baptism.

For example, I might suggest we focus on the book of Galations where Paul says he is astonished that Galation church has so quickly turned away from the gospel of Christ which he has preached to them. This new gospel he tells them is really no gospel at all. Judaizers had the Galatian church believing that they must have faith PLUS works to have salvation. Paul emphasizes that justification is by faith alone! How am I going to twist around the book of Galations to explain that Paul didn't really mean justification by faith alone, but what he really meant was justification by faith plus baptism? Galations 3:6 says: "Consider Abraham: 'He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'. What say? Abraham was "righteous" because of his faith? If Abraham was "righteous" and justified, I think that must mean his sins had been removed. Galatians says this was because of his faith, not because he was baptized. David says in the Psalms that God has removed his sin as far as the east is from the west. And yet, he was never baptized either.

I know those who believe water baptism is needed for remission of sins would argue that baptism is not slavation by works. They claim the baptism is an inward work done by God, not by man. But, if that is true, then the inward work done by God in the sacrement of baptism is dependant on the outward work of the person undergoing the baptism. I totally reject the idea that God's work of salvation is in any way dependant on man's decision, action or work (Romans 9). Even our faith is a gift given to us by God, it does not come from within us (Eph. 2:8-9). Justification by faith alone is one of the most basic tenets of Christianity.

The idea that one could have faith, have new life, have repentance, and yet not have remission of their sins by virtue of their having not been baptized for that purpose, is I believe totally unfounded in scripture and makes no logical sense. I can't reformulate my interpretation of the volumes of scripture establishing the doctrine of salvation to make it consistant with a handful of isolated passages relating to baptism.

I would most definitely say that there are things that God CANNOT do. When we say that God is omnipotent and can do all things, what we mean is that he can do all things that are intrinsically possible. He CANNOT do things which are intrinsically impossible. For example, the old question is posed "could God make a rock so big he could not lift it". You can't answer that question with "yes" or "no" because the whole question is nonsense. God by his nature doesn't have muscles or strength that is tested by weight and mass and gravity the way a man does. Don't assign the finite, human quality of a changeable mind to an infinite and all knowing God.

We don't have any problem saying that God cannot let sin go unpunished, right? We know he cannot because of the quality of justice inherant in his nature. That's just who God is. That's why Jesus had to die - to satisfy God's inability to let sin go unpunished. In the same way, God CANNOT change his mind because it is against his nature. That is not the kind of being God is. The God of the bible is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13). To say that God could change his mind would be equivalent to saying that he is not God at all. Reference Numbers 23:19 - "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"

Nope. The God of the bible does not, and indeed cannot, change his mind.
 
#11 ·
Kart29 said:
All due respect back at you. I understand these discussions challenge some of our most closely held beliefs. It's easy for me to get angry if someone challenges something I feel so passionately about. But, through honest open discussion we can all benefit by either learning something new or become more firm in what we already believe.

I would explain the thief receiving the gift of salvation the same way anyone and everyone else throughout the history of man has received salvation, through faith in God's covenant of grace - established way back in Genesis 3 when the atoning work of the Messiah was first pictured and promised. Since water baptism is not a basic requirement for salvation, there is really nothing to explain. Apparently, Jesus recognized the thief's faith and by his words merely acknowledged the faith and salvation that the Holy Spirit had already produced in the thief's heart.

mattpair asks that we take the simplest, most easily understood interpretation of the passages he cites for his arguments. There are several examples of Jesus specifically telling people that their sins have been forgiven with no record of them having been baptized. If I accept the simplest explanation of the passages which mattpair cites in his arguments, which seem, on their face, to say that remission of sins requires baptism, then I have to do some real twisting of the scriptures and mental gymnastics to explain these passages where sins were forgiven without baptism.

For example, I might suggest we focus on the book of Galations where Paul says he is astonished that Galation church has so quickly turned away from the gospel of Christ which he has preached to them. This new gospel he tells them is really no gospel at all. Judaizers had the Galatian church believing that they must have faith PLUS works to have salvation. Paul emphasizes that justification is by faith alone! How am I going to twist around the book of Galations to explain that Paul didn't really mean justification by faith alone, but what he really meant was justification by faith plus baptism? Galations 3:6 says: "Consider Abraham: 'He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'. What say? Abraham was "righteous" because of his faith? If Abraham was "righteous" and justified, I think that must mean his sins had been removed. Galatians says this was because of his faith, not because he was baptized. David says in the Psalms that God has removed his sin as far as the east is from the west. And yet, he was never baptized either.

I know those who believe water baptism is needed for remission of sins would argue that baptism is not slavation by works. They claim the baptism is an inward work done by God, not by man. But, if that is true, then the inward work done by God in the sacrement of baptism is dependant on the outward work of the person undergoing the baptism. I totally reject the idea that God's work of salvation is in any way dependant on man's decision, action or work (Romans 9). Even our faith is a gift given to us by God, it does not come from within us (Eph. 2:8-9). Justification by faith alone is one of the most basic tenets of Christianity.

The idea that one could have faith, have new life, have repentance, and yet not have remission of their sins by virtue of their having not been baptized for that purpose, is I believe totally unfounded in scripture and makes no logical sense. I can't reformulate my interpretation of the volumes of scripture establishing the doctrine of salvation to make it consistant with a handful of isolated passages relating to baptism.

I would most definitely say that there are things that God CANNOT do. When we say that God is omnipotent and can do all things, what we mean is that he can do all things that are intrinsically possible. He CANNOT do things which are intrinsically impossible. For example, the old question is posed "could God make a rock so big he could not lift it". You can't answer that question with "yes" or "no" because the whole question is nonsense. God by his nature doesn't have muscles or strength that is tested by weight and mass and gravity the way a man does. Don't assign the finite, human quality of a changeable mind to an infinite and all knowing God.

We don't have any problem saying that God cannot let sin go unpunished, right? We know he cannot because of the quality of justice inherant in his nature. That's just who God is. That's why Jesus had to die - to satisfy God's inability to let sin go unpunished. In the same way, God CANNOT change his mind because it is against his nature. That is not the kind of being God is. The God of the bible is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13). To say that God could change his mind would be equivalent to saying that he is not God at all. Reference Numbers 23:19 - "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"

Nope. The God of the bible does not, and indeed cannot, change his mind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

God bless you. It doesn't matter if we agree or not you are evidently a child of God!
 
#12 ·
Ok, let me weigh in here.

I'll keep it simple after reading the posts and Scripture along with prayer I still stand of the opinion that all that is required for salvation is accepting Christ Jesus as the Son of God. That he was raised from and defeated death!
That's it. Jesus did promise the thief on the cross that today you will be with me in paradise. Jesus does not lie, he was and is not capable of it. He is Holy!

Great discussion and scripture study. Keep it up!
God bless,
Greg Franks
 
#13 ·
jean1948 said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------

God bless you. It doesn't matter if we agree or not
Right. The point of the discussion is not to fight or to see who's wrong or right. More, it's about directing our thoughts to God, recalling his Word and considering his nature and his ways. Have you noticed that when you really love someone, it is a delight to think about them and to talk about them? What a joy it is to think about the unfolding of God's plan of redemption throughout history - to discuss with our brothers the wonders of such an unfathomable God and the richness of his word. May his name be praised!
 
#15 ·
KART29:


I believe romanists is a derogatory word for Roman Catholics! As stated in the website you mentioned. Besides I believe that the following will address the subject pretty well:


The Christian explanation of baptism as the definitive rite, by which the baptized person is indicated to be fully-qualified for participation in the life of the Church, begins with the career of John the Baptist, who was thought to be the cousin of Jesus. Those who believe that John was a prophet identify baptism with his message concerning repentance in preparation for the coming of the Messiah.
"He [John] went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: "A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him. Every valley shall be filled in, every mountain and hill made low. The crooked roads shall become straight, the rough ways smooth. And all mankind will see God's salvation.'" Luke 3:3-6 "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Luke 3:8 John declared that repentance was necessary, prior to forgiveness. There must be a return to God. This implies that the stain of sin is not ineradicable, but can be removed by putting off polluting acts and returning to "the way of the Lord", all of which was symbolized in his baptism.
Christians believe that John also taught that his baptism was not finally sufficient, and that repentance would not attain to its goal of separation from sin, apart from a greater baptism which it was not in his power to give. According to the Gospel of Luke, John taught, "I baptize you with water; but one comes who is stronger than I, of whom I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire; his winnowing fork is in his hand to clean out his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with inextinguishable fire." (Luke 3,16-17) Christians believe that John's baptism shows that the effort to make oneself acceptable to God by repentance would be superseded, made complete by the coming of the Lamb of God that 'takes away' (not 'covers over') sins.
According to the Gospel of John, after John baptized Jesus, he testified concerning him,
"I have seen the Spirit coming down as a dove from heaven, and it remained upon him. And I had not known him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water, that one said to me, On whomever you see the Spirit coming down and remaining upon him, this is the one baptizing with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen, and I have testified that this is the son of God." (John 1,32-34) "Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world." From this point on, water baptism became identified with the followers of Jesus, who preached "Repent, for the kingdom of God is near", and explicitly identified the coming of the kingdom with his own appearing.
At the end of his recorded ministry, Jesus charged the Apostles to baptize "in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit" in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19), which has become the common method for baptizing. The Apostles are recorded baptizing only in the name of Jesus in the Book of Acts (Acts 2:3

As you can see Jesus specifically stated that Baptism is necessary.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I looked up the term "romanist" in the dictionary and you are right, it says it is a derogatory term for a Roman Catholic. I'd never even heard the term before. I've learned something new today so now I can have the rest of the day off, right? :) Aside from that, what did you think about the rest of the conversation? I loved that quote from C.S. Lewis at the very end.

As you can see Jesus specifically stated that Baptism is necessary.
I don't see from what you posted that it references Jesus saying anything about baptism other than his command to the disciples in the great commission. From what you posted, I don't see a case for baptismal regeneration whatsoever. Especially from this part of it:

John taught, "I baptize you with water; but one comes who is stronger than I, of whom I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire; his winnowing fork is in his hand to clean out his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with inextinguishable fire." (Luke 3,16-17) Christians believe that John's baptism shows that the effort to make oneself acceptable to God by repentance would be superseded, made complete by the coming of the Lamb of God that 'takes away' (not 'covers over') sins.
According to the Gospel of John, after John baptized Jesus, he testified concerning him,
"I have seen the Spirit coming down as a dove from heaven, and it remained upon him. And I had not known him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water, that one said to me, On whomever you see the Spirit coming down and remaining upon him, this is the one baptizing with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen, and I have testified that this is the son of God."
From that part of the quote I actually see a case for regeneration by baptism of the Holy Spirit - not water baptism.

Here's a neat website I found that has gobs and gobs of good essays on the subject. It could keep you reading for days - lots of different perspectives presented there.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/babtism.html


If you believe that salvation comes by faith plus baptism, then how do you explain all the places in scripture that insist that justification is by faith in Christ alone?
 
#17 ·
OK I must admit that I read about 2/3 of your post before my head started to hurt.
I have one question and if it was answered in the part I didn't read then forgive me.

What about the thief on the cross beside Jesus? Jesus told him "today you will be with me in paradise" He didn't get baptised. I am sure he would have if he had the chance but it simply did not happen. Did Jesus just pull a fast one on him? I don't think so.

I do think baptism is a very important part of salvation but I do not agree that it is a requirment OF salvation.

What of the person on their death bed that gets saved minutes before death? Was the shed blood of Jesus not enough to get them into heaven? Sure it was.

I could be baptised 100 times but it will not make a difference come judgement day.
 
#18 ·
I guess some would agree with that (like me) and some wouldn't. Apparently it's been a big arguement within Christianity for a long time. Not an easy question to answer.

There's lots of different views on baptism. It's an important issue but not really critical. But the doctrine of salvation is really what's at stake here - and that IS a critical issue.

I believe the concept of baptismal regeneration is supported with scriptures discussing baptism while completely ignoring all the scriptures establishing the doctrine of salvation.

The case of the thief on the cross has been brought up in this thread but I don't think there's been a reasonable response to that issue. Also, there are many other cases were Jesus told people that their sins were forgiven with no reference to them having ever been baptized or even being instructed to be baptized in the future.
 
#19 ·
I don't even see it as the doctrine of salvation is at stake, here or anywhere else.
The doctrine of salvation is as solid as the word of God.
Maybe I will go back and try to re-read this to try and figure out the thought process but I have seen NOTHING that makes me believe that baptism is part of salvation.
Gods plan of salvation is so simple a child can understand it. I don't see the point in trying to make it into something its not.
 
#20 ·
I agree that one can reach salvation without baptism, but it is offered and why would one not avail themselves of it. If it was a good enough sacrament for Jesus to partake of, like the Last Supper, why not? We(Catholics) believe in different types of baptism, not only of water, but of blood, for instance, when one is dying and wants to be saved, all one has to do is profess his desire to be saved and state he believes in God and His word. It is only when one has knowledge of the requirement of being baptized in the name of the Trinity, that is in the " name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", and refuses to to do so is one doomed.
 
#21 ·
Well, mattpair argues from scripture that there is no remission of sins and no salvation unless an individual is baptised specifically and purposefully "for the remission of sins". His point is that faith alone, in Christ alone, is not sufficient for salvation. Even faith plus the wrong kind of baptism will not be sufficient for salvation. This goes beyond the doctrines relating to baptism and into soteriology, or the doctrine of salvation.

Personally, I believe that baptism is a sacrement, or a means of grace. It is not merely an outward symbol (although it is that) but it also in some way it is actually a vehicle used by God to confer his grace to us. I believe it has a real and actual spiritual effect in our sould beyond just a public profession and indentification with Christ. But, I don't think it is effective unto or a prerquisite for salvation. I believe it is a sign and seal of the everlasting covenant established between God and his people just as circumcision was before the new administration of the covenant in Christ's blood. I believe in baptizing infant children of communicant members of the visible church. I believe sprinkling with water is equally as effective and proper a method of baptism as is immersion.

But I don't believe it is necessary for salvation. And that's the point that's under discussion. All the other stuff pales in comparison to the core belief of how man is made right with God.

Romans 4:5 "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. "
 
#22 · (Edited)
Kart29 said:
I would most definitely say that there are things that God CANNOT do. When we say that God is omnipotent and can do all things, what we mean is that he can do all things that are intrinsically possible. He CANNOT do things which are intrinsically impossible. For example, the old question is posed "could God make a rock so big he could not lift it". You can't answer that question with "yes" or "no" because the whole question is nonsense. God by his nature doesn't have muscles or strength that is tested by weight and mass and gravity the way a man does. Don't assign the finite, human quality of a changeable mind to an infinite and all knowing God.


Nope. The God of the bible does not, and indeed cannot, change his mind.

I think we have settled the baptism for salvation thing but two things here caught my attention. Not trying to argue at all just putting some things up for debate.

First: God is God. If He wanted to make a rock He could not move then He could, then in the next breath He could snap His fingers and it would burst into a million pieces. Or He could simply say the word and it would move out of His way. God has no limits.

Second. Read Jonah 3:10 where God changed his mind. [10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
I don't have the time right now to look them up but many times Moses pleaded with God NOT to do the things God said He would do with the children of Israel and He didn't.

Somehow I think if Gods mind could not be changed what is the point in praying for our needs. If His mind can not be changed about something what would be the use in praying?
 
#23 ·
oneshotman:

You hit the nail on the head. God can and does change his mind. That is his prerogative. You are right in that if we were predestined to go to hades or heaven what would be the sense of praying for our salvation? God is a merciful God. He does not try to trick us or make things difficult for salvation. All he requires is a belief in Him.
 
#24 ·
God is sovereign and has foreordained all things - that is, he is the First Cause of all things. He has ordained that the way he will cause some things to come about is through the prayers of men (second cause). He has laid out the course of all human history since before the beginning of time.

I Samuel 15:29 "He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

Psalm 110:4 "The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind"


If God is not sovereign, why pray at all for the salvation of others? If faith is really an individual choice of ones own free will, then all the praying in the world isn't going to do any good because God will not be able to intrude on the free will of the individual, right? If you are praying for the salvation of others, you MUST be a calvinist. Men obviously have free will, but our own free will is always to reject God and put ourselves in his place. That's the sin nature of fallen man. We are dead in our trespasses and sins. How does a dead man suddenly and spontaneously of his own will somehow become alive again through his own decision?

Good counterpoint, oneshotman. But the whole thing about the unliftable rock is still nonsense. If God makes a rock he cannot move, and later moves it, then he didn't really make a rock he couldn't move. That's like asking if could God make an mountain that is not a mountain. The whole question is nonsense. There are obviously things God cannot do. God cannot sin or be the author of sin - he is holy. God cannot let sin go unpunished - he is just. God's ways are so far above our ways that there is no way we can fathom the depth of his wisdom and knowledge. But that doesn't mean that we are incapable of knowing anything about him.

Wow, we are really down some rabbit trails now!

You can post your replies if you want but I think I'll keep any further comments in this thread relating to baptism as a requirement for salvation from this point forward.

Good conversations guys!
 
#25 ·
Kart
I appreciate your Bible references and hope to clarify the context from which they were taken.

First, Psalm 110:4 relates to a specific event, The Messiah. God is promising a Messiah on the order of the Priest Melchizedek who was with Abraham. This was a firm promise from God and in this promise He stated clearly that He would not change His mind. However, this promise can not nor should it be taken as reflecting God's nature that he can not change his mind.

Second, I Sam 15, you need to explore the full chapter of what is happening, Saul has committed a sin which in God's eyes has been grievious enough to lead God to tear the kingdom of Isreal away from Saul. In verse 35 of I Sam 15 it says that God was grieved or repented, various versions, over His choice of Saul as King of Isreal. Verse 11 also indicates that God regretted His decision. In this instance, God did change his mind. He made Saul King of Isreal, then repented his decision. Samuel in verse 29 is referring to God changing his mind as a man does, for no reason or for selfish reasons. Rather, He will change his mind when it will benefit His greatest creation and love which is US. It is not to be taken as a blanket statement that the nature of God is that He can not or will not change His mind.

If you go further back to the begining of I Samuel you will find the Isrealites making the arguement for a King. God had placed over them Judges to rule. God did not want to place a King over Isreal and He spells out why in great detail in I Sam 8 why the children of Isreal should not have a King. After their petition again and again, God changed his mind and allowed them a King.

God can change his mind, He will do so at the presentment of our petitions through prayer. He has shown in virtually every book in the old testament that He has changed His mind.

Hope this clarifies the use of the verses you chose.

Brad S
Hebrews 10:39
 
#26 ·
kart29:

I will respect your wish and will not go any further on the subject of baptism. It was enlightening for me to discuss the subject with some true Christians. God bless you all and have a Merry Christmas. We don't decorate our house for the Christmas season now that all the kids have moved on. That way Barb and I can concentrate on the birth of Jesus.
 
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