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  #1  
Old 05-06-2006, 07:49 PM
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Exclamation 882 ft-lbs of energy won't kill a deer!!!


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WARNING: many published gunwriters have clearly explained why anything less that 1,000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy won't kill a whitetail deer.

That I why I wisely selected a bison (american buffalo) to try a load generating sub-part ballistic performance on, rather than risk wounding a tough 90 lb. whitetail. Also, deer are out of season here ....

Shot a bison this weekend with a handgun generating all of 882 ft-lbs of muzzle energy..... a 440 grain bullet, rated at 950 fps muzzle velocity. You can check the Beartooth kinetic energy calculater and verify these figures, but it comes to exactly 882 ft-lbs

The bison..... (which I don't have any idea how big it was, but big enough that the small tractor we picked it up with, had trouble keeping the back tires on the ground) took one shot through the lungs at about 30 or so yards.

Ran a short ways (like another 30 yards or so), I caught up with it, and put another shot within inches of the first. Bison spun around blowing blood out it's nose at the second shot.... clearly it already had some health problems from the first shot ... ..... and tipped over dead.

One more shot through the neck while it was on the ground, cause bullets are cheap, and ER visits are not

Here's a picture of the lungs, next to a cartridge.....

Oh and for the believers in kinetic energy, I might tell the tale of 'Stupid,' (can't print the other names we were using for him) a buffalo/Brahma cross which caused much havoc at the ranch... till one of the hunters put a 500 grain bullet from a .450 Nitro Express into it (5,133 ft-lbs of KE).

This made Stupid want to fight, and another 5,133 ft-lbs of energy were summed to end that altercation..... with 3 more 500gr. solids in my .458 Win Mag, waiting on deck.

So .... lesson learned..... 882 lbs. of KE are inadequate to stop a bison.... you need at least 10,266 lbs. of KE to stop a bison.

By the way... the quarters of a mature bison, pretty well fill up the bed of a Ford Ranger. So don't go shooting 90 lb. whitetails, with inadequate calibers, OK??????
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882 ft-lbs of energy won't kill a deer!!!-lungs.jpg  
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2006, 08:04 PM
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Been around some brangus (angus/brahma cross) cattle and they were mean enough. I can't imagine what a buffalo/brahma cross might be like. Let alone one with a bullet in him to spice things up a bit.

Whats the caliber of that 440 grain slug, mike??

As we learned in physics---Mass in motion tends to stay in motion.
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  #3  
Old 05-07-2006, 04:05 AM
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Mike;
Sounds like you have some fine eating ahead of you. I love it when I read the "rags" that say you need a "super duper manum blooper" to kill. Guess they just sit in a office and look at playboy, eh? 1000 pounds of energy is alot. I have seen alot of deer fall to a lowly 22 long rifle when I was a kid. How much muzzle energy does it have? I hunt with mostly my 44 magnum redhawk or my freedom arms 454, Both are overkill for most conditions. I just like the guns and can hit with them. I don't pay much attention to articles in mags when they start talking about how much power is needed to kill an animal. Once you put a hole clean through, How much more do you need? I see you have that nice wide meplat on that bullet. I have lbt molds for my .430 and .452. Glad I bought them. As stated above- Mass tends to stay in motion- VERY TRUE. Besides animals can't read the rags anyway. They just know they are dead when smacked with a well designed, well placed bullet. God Bless Steve
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  #4  
Old 05-07-2006, 02:41 PM
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I don't think it's listed on the Buffalo Bore web site, but it's one of their loadings of the .500 JRH (Jack Huntington designed cartridge).

Got the pleasure of meeting Jack on the hunt, and when he mentioned that he would like data from hunting with the 'light' .500 JRH load, well.... it was too much temptation to not use it. He backed me up with one of his double rifles on the hunt, but didn't have to shoot.

He shot an asiatic water buffalo with the 'heavy' load, a 425gr. bullet at 1350fps. Frankly.... they were both pretty effective! His trip, by the way, was to gather information for a gun manufacturer who is going to chamber his cartridge in their guns.

I'll not say more till I get back in touch with him and verify that it's OK to spill the beans on that.....

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  #5  
Old 05-07-2006, 02:58 PM
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I believe I would have just sidled up a little closer and shot it in the head with a .22 pistol.
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  #6  
Old 05-07-2006, 03:57 PM
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Less than 1000fpe+...you better go back and check the freezer, it might have woke up and run off.
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  #7  
Old 05-07-2006, 04:09 PM
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Congrats Mike, and thanks for the story. Had to be a bit exciting when it turned on you! Please tell us how it eats.

"Can't go wrong with slow and strong." Well, in the bullet world anyway.
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  #8  
Old 05-07-2006, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenK
I believe I would have just sidled up a little closer and shot it in the head with a .22 pistol.
You're a braver man than I am!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbonstone
Less than 1000fpe+...you better go back and check the freezer, it might have woke up and run off.
I'll call the meat processor in the AM and make sure that everything is still OK.... LOL

Here's the critter, and instrument of it's destruction:
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  #9  
Old 05-07-2006, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG
You're a braver man than I am!!!!



I'll call the meat processor in the AM and make sure that everything is still OK.... LOL

Here's the critter, and instrument of it's destruction:
Nice spike! Was that guy free range or on any kind of supplement feed? He might be too good to make sausage out of!
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  #10  
Old 05-07-2006, 07:02 PM
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Mike, just so you know; I hate you......
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  #11  
Old 05-07-2006, 07:10 PM
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Mike,
Could you tell me something about that cartridge you were shooting? I never heard of it. A slug that big, but with the modest velocity...what was the recoil like?

Thanks for sharing!

Jim
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  #12  
Old 05-07-2006, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFT
Mike, just so you know; I hate you......
I'll take that as a compliment.

Drought conditions ( 0.9" of rain between September and May) meant there wasn't much of anything to eat. I think there was some alfalfa hay brought in to keep the big critters alive. Judging from the fat on him, he was doing OK.

Got confirmation that I can spill the beans. Basically, Magnum Research (the BFR revolvers) are coming out with a 5-shooter in the .500 JRH chambering. The .500 JRH is a tad smaller than a .500 S&W; both in length, and rim size. Jack designed it to fit in a Freedom Arms cylinder. It will also fit in the custom 5-shot conversions on the Ruger Bisley frame. The .500 JRH will shoot in a .500 S&W cylinder, but not the other way around, of course. I don't know how it compares to the other .50 cal handgun cartridges.

Judging from how it worked in the field.... I don't see any logical reason for the .500 S&W, at least for performance on game. This gun is shootable, without a muzzle break!

For whatever reason, Freedom Arms decided to do their own thing with the .500 Wyoming Express..... very similar, but using a belted case, instead of rimmed. Jack designed the .500 JRH to fit the F.A. guns, but they did not adopt it. At least one board member here has a custom F.A. chambered in the cartridge, that Jack made up as a prototype.

However, Magnum Research picked up the cartridge and is planning on making it a production chambering. No idea on schedules / availability.

Will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I have a Premier grade .454 ..... and it surely is a finely fitted gun. FA will always be the to of the heap, for a premier off-the-shelf revolver.

But.... Magnum Research will give them something to chew on. The gun has some nice features, like a freewheeling cylinder (really handy on the big cases where you have to line up the cylinder exactly with the loading port). Cylinder spins like it is on ball bearings, I kid you not.

And you can carry all chambers loaded safely due to the transfer bar, which is NOT a good idea with the Freedom Arms.

The M.R. gun is already drilled/tapped on the topstrap. Jack tells me that the method of productio on the cylinders gives the same precsion as being line-bored. Trigger pull is very good, and the trigger guard is ROUNDED as opposed to the squared-off super-blackhawk trigger guard that M.R. had been using in the past.

11 degree target crown on the barrel..... not really necessary, but nice.

Locking base pin, and oversize ejector head.... I couldn't swear that all of these features will make it to the full production guns, but hopefully they all will.

This gun is much nicer than the production M.R. guns I have seen in the past. If M.R. plays this right, they'll find a nice market space between the people who must have the most expensive gun (FA and custom), and those who want some real (and controllable) performance in a gun that you can actually carry all day.

The darn thing is shootable, I'll tell you that. Can't tell much difference between my heavy .44 mag & .45 Colt loads in my Ruger Bisleys (which are lighter), and the 'light' 440 grain load in the M.R. gun. Heavy loads in the .500 JRH slap my trigger finger without a shooting glove, but the grips are too long/deep, as-is. I think I might be able to make up some grips that will solve that problem.
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  #13  
Old 05-08-2006, 04:56 PM
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Thanks for all the information, Mike! I was kicking around the idea of a BFR, and this sounds like something I would be interested in.

Jim
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  #14  
Old 05-08-2006, 07:22 PM
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You know I mean that in the best way Mike. Get back in my good graces by taking me on the next buffalo hunt!

Great information about the hunt and .500 JRH. I need to add my experience w/ an unsuitable caliber of too little power. Two years ago I used a .45 LC, 325gr. cast bullet to shoot through two hogs at once. Not by intent, but the second bacon wagon was unfortunate enough to be standing 3-4 yards in back of and in-line to my intended target, a boar weighing in around the 200# mark. One shot, two pigs, one empty BBA case, all from a measly, outdated, underpowered and some say obsolete cartridge. More info on the .500 JRH when it becomes available please.
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  #15  
Old 05-08-2006, 07:35 PM
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I have had that exact 45 Colt load exit 1000# Bison it is a very powerfull and effective load. My 500 JRH is the first one that Jack built and it is the one that Buffalo Bore used for load developement. The 500 JRH is a very effective and shootable handgun
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  #16  
Old 05-08-2006, 08:26 PM
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Mike, I work with Jack. He had all the film developed today and It looks like you all had a GREAT time. Nice Buff you shot. I wish I could have been there but a new baby kept me home. My 500 Nitro needs a good work out! Jack and I are talking about a hunt in the fall and I'm sure he'd like to have you along again. I'm sure JWP475 will be more careful about what he eats before a hunting trip next time. I have steaks from stupid and the water buff to bbq tomorrow....
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  #17  
Old 05-08-2006, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swd
Mike, I work with Jack. He had all the film developed today and It looks like you all had a GREAT time. Nice Buff you shot. I wish I could have been there but a new baby kept me home. My 500 Nitro needs a good work out! Jack and I are talking about a hunt in the fall and I'm sure he'd like to have you along again. I'm sure JWP475 will be more careful about what he eats before a hunting trip next time. I have steaks from stupid and the water buff to bbq tomorrow....
Well..... come on down for the next one! We got more critters that need shot, LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwp475
I have had that exact 45 Colt load exit 1000# Bison it is a very powerfull and effective load. My 500 JRH is the first one that Jack built and it is the one that Buffalo Bore used for load developement. The 500 JRH is a very effective and shootable handgun
John... so sorry you could not make it. "Stupid" was the perfect critter for you to shoot..... he needed shot, and you would have enjoyed it. Maybe next time...

SFT.... you are more than welcome, on the next buffalo shooting expedtion! Not sure how long it will take me to eat this one, though. I'll save you a few bites....
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  #18  
Old 05-14-2006, 11:44 AM
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For those that have read this thread what did you learn from it if anything? I believe there is much information here that go's directly against some commonly held beliefs.Since this was done in the real world on real animals it's validity can not be denied
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  #19  
Old 05-14-2006, 12:15 PM
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MikeG;
I'll take you up on that offer, but don't get greedy and wolf down all those steaks after the first BBQ or two!
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  #20  
Old 05-14-2006, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFT
MikeG;
I'll take you up on that offer, but don't get greedy and wolf down all those steaks after the first BBQ or two!
Not much chance.... 6 or 7 coolers full of meat!

By the way... never weighed the full animal.... but found out from the processor that the pieces I brought him, weighed 505 lbs.

Not sure what that works out to be on the hoof.
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