» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > General > General Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Like Tree24Likes

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-15-2012, 03:49 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Green Mountains of Vermont
Posts: 614
Any Ideas


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


How do we prevent what happened in Connecticutt yesterday , while maintaining our right to bear arms ? I cherish my guns as much as anybody , but this cannot continue !
  #2  
Old 12-15-2012, 04:43 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 272
My first suggestion would be to look at the problem logically. This recent spate of killings is not driven by any changes in firearms or gun laws. Those who have always wanted guns reserved for gov't use only cannot contain themselves. Their first and only suggestion is more gun control.

Conn's gun laws are pretty strict. Yet, the alledged shooter killed the lawful owner and took her guns. Much will be made of the AR-15 yet apparently it remained in the trunk of the car till police found it. The killer used 2 ordinary handguns for this sick assault. If gun control is the answer, then we apparently need to give up all guns so that they cannot be stolen and used in crime.

Apparently the shooter had a troubled past. I haven't heard any details of this but perhaps there were actionable signs which could have prevented this event. Seems that in many of the recent cases the shooter has been disturbed, under treatment and already "flagged" by people they had contact with. Some of them still made it through the background check. There may be room to improve mental health reporting to NCIC.

In the end though, it is our whole society which needs changed. We appear to be devolving and most quickly in urban areas. Most will not want to tackle that. They, and. I don't know where to start. By the frequency of these random attacks though, a significant segment of us is in a very sick place.
  #3  
Old 12-15-2012, 04:46 AM
cvc944's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 168
I'm pretty sure that we all shared our views on both reacting to, as well as preventing, senseless gun violence following the recent Aurora shootings. Now is the time to pray for those sweet angels we've lost and those whose hearts were torn out when they were taken.
  #4  
Old 12-15-2012, 04:59 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: nw utah
Posts: 1,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneoldsap View Post
How do we prevent what happened in Connecticutt yesterday , while maintaining our right to bear arms ? I cherish my guns as much as anybody , but this cannot continue !
a well armed unregulated society

Webley put the numbers right on front of us in a different thread
  #5  
Old 12-15-2012, 05:33 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,955
There are things that could be done on the regulatory level IMO, but this has a deeper societal core. I am willing to bet the following applied to the young man in Connecticut: We are "training" or conditioning our youth to mass murder. Now I don't mean "we" as in anybody on here specifically, I mean in our society in general. In the civil war, WW1 and WWII, US Army studies consistently showed that a surprisingly high percentage of soldiers never fired their weapons in combat. It was found that abject fear, and the horror of killing people, froze these soldiers up. So the Army went to "pop-up" targets in training. The man sized targets "pop up" and the trainee engages them. It conditions the soldier to engage the target as a reaction. It worked great. Soldiers in Viet Nam and subsequent wars did much better at engaging the enemy and not freezing up. Well, fast forward to the home video game era. We now have kids who sit in front of the set for hours, day after day and "engage targets". They become "conditioned" the same way the Army rightfully conditions its soldiers. We also take human violence very lightly in our movie and TV culture. Kids just grow up thinking it's the norm. We have conditioned that "horror of killing" out of them sadly through our electronic entertainment media. And now, fewer kids than ever before per capita actually hunt, and thus see what the lethality of firearms is all about. These facts are a big driver in the increase of these horrific episodes in the last 10 to 15 years in my opinion.
m141a, jackfrost and 7MMRLC like this.
__________________
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Last edited by Bird Dog II; 12-15-2012 at 05:45 AM.
  #6  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:10 AM
jawi_89's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: west central wisconsin
Posts: 249
Bird Dog I agree with you but the one thing that I think alot of people are missing is this, The media capitalizes on these kinds of crimes, they stay in the top of the news stories for weeks and months after the fact. Everybody wants to know how or whyit happened so the media keeps it there. So the next thing you have some imbalanced person who wants to get theyre name upon the history wall. It sensationalizes them. Thats what theyre looking for. To be the talk of the town. Because if they just wanted to kill themselves like they do in the end(usually) they wouldnt want to take anyone with them when they do it. Maybe Im all wet, but thats the way I think about it.
  #7  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:41 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: nw utah
Posts: 1,075
sick people will find a way to do their sick things if they are determined. Gun control is far from the answer.
  #8  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:56 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Near The Glades, South Florida
Posts: 58
The answer is simple:

Education.

And that means a MANDATORY class on gun safety, which would include securing your weapons. This should be followed up by a YEARLY recertification class, if only to REMIND people of what to do. AND yearly background checks.

Heck, the NRA can even give the classes, making it a whopper profit center for them.

The point is, the NRA can't argue with increased education. That's a losing battle. And this can only be a good thing, and while an inconvenience to so many, will not restrict access to the currently available legal classes of firearms.

(I mean, where I live in South Florida, they should be doing this with people's DRIVERS' Licenses!)

The NRA has the power, resources and wherewithal to satisfy both sides of the issue.
  #9  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:25 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,955
I agree with some of what you say IraRat, but I don't think the answer is "simple". Nor will anything the NRA does ever "satisfy" one side of the debate that is brewing. Here is the thing, background checks, even yearly won't get at the heart of the problem. In the 5 dozen or so "mass shootings" (4 or more victims in a public place) that have occurred in America in the last 20 years, these two facts stand out: 1. The weapons were generally obtained legally, as was the case here apparently. 2. There was serious mental illness previously diagnosed (or strongly suspected) with the shooter. A yearly background check isn't going to catch that necessarily. I mean, if you get depressed next month and seek medical attention for it, do you want that private medical information transmitted or shared with some government law enforcement database? Heck, if that was the case, you'd have more people NOT seeking medical attention (avoiding it to stay out of that database) and thus more cases of depression deteriorating into something much worse. It could be the same if you sought help for drug or alcohol problems, or post traumatic stress syndrome, etc.

I don't have good answers. Big brother is not the answer, but the libs are going to be pushing for it now - you can bet the farm on that. In debating for reasonable (potential) limits on automatic weapons last week on here, I made a statement about "some nut walking into a kindergarten". I really wish I hadn't said that now:-(

I certainly do not want a yearly re-certification for my bolt action rifle and shotgun ownership. My fear has always been that that is the kind of over-reach that will happen though - that I'd get punished for what some I.W.A.W. do. I hope that doesn't happen.
__________________
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Last edited by Bird Dog II; 12-15-2012 at 07:39 AM.
  #10  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:41 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by IraRat View Post
The answer is simple:
That would be nice if true. The White House is surely hammering out the details of their "simple" proposal as we speak. Your suggestions may even be a small portion of it. To the anti gunners, this is a crisis not to be wasted. What is produced will not be "the answer".
  #11  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:41 AM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 27,193
The answer to the question of "does strict gun control prevent horrific crimes?" can be answered in one work:

Mexico.
m141a, treecarcass and 7MMRLC like this.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
  #12  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:42 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Green Mountains of Vermont
Posts: 614
I too am at a loss , as to a soloution to this problem ! It sure would be nice if the soloution , if indeed there is one , came from us (the firearms community ) . You all know as well as I , that any remedy that society in general comes up with , won't be a good fit for us ! There is certainly no easy answer to this problem , or perhaps no answer at all . I agree that gun control is not the answer , so we need to come up with a viable alternative . Let's give this issue some serious thought , it's a real brain teaser for sure ! Please don't turn on me , as I'm every bit as frustrated as you are . I drove thirty miles last night , to hug my grandchildren before they went to bed !
  #13  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:50 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,487
Most of these people are "troubled" long before the shooting. we have a BIG failure in the medical, health, guidance community, to detect and properly treat/identify these people before a happening.

Last week a school close to me changed its regulations; a good area. Until then every child, adult entering the room was made to walk thru a metal detector, with a police/guard there to inspect all packages..every day. that is a lot of work but they have been doing that for 4 years and requires about 4 full time employees.

Last week they decided to arm the school guards that search and inspect. At that announcement I was thinking this was too much. Today, I'm thinking it might be a good idea.
  #14  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:59 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,955
I agree oldsap. Go back and read some of the ideas I proposed last week in the "anyone hear Costas" and "Obama ban on Autos" threads. I am not going to rehash those points here today. I was mostly brainstorming, I guess somehow hoping something logical could take root in this community (responsible gun owners) before the next Columbine happened. Too late:-( Sadly, in response, a few people went off the deep end, sinking as far as to talk about the need to "fight the tyranny of the government" someday with high capacity automatic weapons. How this kind of rhetoric in any way helps our cause, is beyond my capacity for rational thought. If we are going to maintain our rights, we have to speak logically and thoughtfully, not like that.
__________________
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
  #15  
Old 12-15-2012, 08:01 AM
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 19,787
Boy - Am I ever in agreement with Birddog! Our youth today are conditioned to violence through the movies and video games which they are enthralled by. Their desire to act out and mimic what they see has led to a very casual attitude toward human life.

I'm afraid this latest happening, because of the young age of the victims, will provide the argument the anti's with just the sort of public indignation to cause our lawmakers to impose even more draconian laws which do nothing but penalize the honest law abiding citizen.

My two cents, anyway. Please take a moment to pray for the tender souls of the children.
m141a likes this.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
NRA Certified Police Firearms Instructor
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NAHC Life Member

"Firearms only have two enemies - rust and politicans" author unknown
  #16  
Old 12-15-2012, 08:16 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 353
I can agree with the conditioning. Makes sense. Not sure what the answer is. My heart breaks for those poor babies. My youngest is in Kindergarten and my wife cried uncontrollably. I too teared up.

Why doesn't our Pres cry for the million children killed each year by docs? Sorry for the political spin mods... just a fact.

Society is surely narrow minded.......
__________________
God Bless,

EW
  #17  
Old 12-15-2012, 08:21 AM
cvc944's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneoldsap View Post
I too am at a loss, as to a solution to this problem! It sure would be nice if the solution , if indeed there is one , came from us (the firearms community ).
Every solution begins as an attempt to solve a problem. Sometimes we begin at the beginning, but usually we start somewhere in the middle or toward the end. The problem is people killing people. The biggest reason for these monstrous attacks just has to be that the shooter has no sanctity for human life. So a really good first step would be to stop allowing our children to be raised on an endless diet of death and violence. We tax cigarettes heavily, so it seems to me we can tax wonton violence in movies and video games similarly. The most chilling thing that I have seen every time one of these atrocities occurs is that the older folks cry and the younger folks do not. The older folks remember that we used to live with each other without slaughtering each other. I too hope that we gun-owners can find common ground and work toward a common goal to start putting an end to this at the root cause.
  #18  
Old 12-15-2012, 08:55 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,955
Last night I wanted to watch TV with my 11 year old. One channel had a Stallone shoot'em movie. Another had one with sexual explicity and some gun violence. Of course the news was DEPRESSING! So I said, "lets watch some sports." I flipped it over to one channel and the NBA was on and I don't enjoy that. So I switched to the next and UFC was on. That is the fastest growing sport in America. Two guys just bludgeoning each other for money and glory. We ended up on the weather channel;-) Anyway, that is the culture these kids get bombarded with. = Root cause.
__________________
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
  #19  
Old 12-15-2012, 09:12 AM
Irv S's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Colorado/Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,464
It's a mental health problem, not a gun control problem. A short article in the "Nation and World" section of the Denver Post today (page 23A) reports a man in Beijing injured 23 children and an adult in a knife attack outside a primary school in central China on Friday and that the incident was the "latest in a series of rampages". That incident only got very brief mention on one of the TV news stations. Instead the TV News is re-emphasizing and replaying footage from earlier shooting tragedies in the US.

Last edited by Irv S; 12-15-2012 at 12:56 PM.
  #20  
Old 12-15-2012, 09:54 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Green Mountains of Vermont
Posts: 614
Who are these people that bombard the children of our nation with glorified , senceless violence ? They are profiting from poisoning the minds of our children , to what end ? So the root of the problem is the crap that passes for entertainment these days . I'm in agreement ! When my son was growing up , there were no video games in our house . He is raising his kids the same way , but it's not easy . So how do we make it stop ? I see those games advertized on TV and just shake my head and ask my wife , what kind of people would allow their kids to play these "games" . I'm thinking it's people that just don't take the time to raise their children , or just don't know how ! This country has been on a downhill course since Mom had to go to work to make ends meet . Todays 20 year old would be the second generation from the so called latch key kids of the 60s . We were apathetic and now we're paying for it !
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Custom S&W 28 conversion ideas please meh92 Handguns 10 12-17-2012 12:43 AM
DIY Shooting Range Ideas & Questions: westcoaster222 General Discussion 1 08-15-2011 11:55 AM
Home made ideas Erfinden Handguns 2 07-14-2010 12:15 PM
ideas for casting bullets hoeram Bullet Casting 11 12-21-2008 06:36 AM
Model 94 ideas Colin Rush Winchester 94 Lever Guns 1 11-28-2008 05:26 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:33 AM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2