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  #1  
Old 12-23-2012, 05:34 PM
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A "no cost idea for school security"


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One of the issues the anti gun people are screaming about is the cost of putting armed personnel in the schools.
I've got two suggestions that would cost absolutely nothing to the school systems across the country.

#1. There are thousands of retired police officers, security guards, and military personnel as well as civilians with CCW permits that are perfectly qualified to guard our kids at school. Many of these folks are looking for ways to volunteer their time for great causes. None could be better than this. Many of these folks are already volunteering many hours per week in places like the VA, hospitals, the Red Cross, etc. We (or the NRA) could train these people specifically for school security and schedule each of them for a few days a week and there would be more than enough of these people available that several could be on duty at the same time in order to secure the entire school campus adequately. And the reality is there would be thousands of these folks that would love to volunteer for this purpose.
My gosh...we already have un-paid volunteers doing work for the school systems such crossing guards for example; so why not for armed security as well.
I'm sure however there would be those that think you need to be a Navy Seal, Special Forces, or a member of a swat team to guard kids at school; but that's a bunch of non-sense.
Many of these school personnel are so up in arms about having armed personnel on the premisis that it's like they have images of swat teams roaming the halls. They need to be educated that a school could be heavilly secured with armed personnel and neither the kids or the staff would even realize there are guns on the premisis.

#2. How about the thousands of National Guard or military personnel that are on our country's payroll and many of them doing absolutely nothing. Put them to work in plain clothes guarding schools.

Those that are so paranoid about having armed personnel around their kids should go talk to the parents of the 20 kids that were lost last week. I doubt you could find one parent that would say they would have been appalled at the thought that a "good guy with a gun" would be in the shcool building on that day.
  #2  
Old 12-23-2012, 06:49 PM
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I brought this exact subject up to our school security director. Our middle and high schools already have police officers stationed at the schools, just not our elementary. I would be more than glad to donate one day a week to help protect my grandsons.
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  #3  
Old 12-23-2012, 07:51 PM
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How about we bring our military home. Then we would have the $ to make security possible.
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  #4  
Old 12-23-2012, 07:53 PM
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Ding Ding

Ding Ding - here we have ourselves a winner!

Quote:
How about we bring our military home. Then we would have the $ to make security possible.
Well done to that man!

Ditto what he says!

Cheers!
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  #5  
Old 12-24-2012, 03:08 AM
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The volunteer idea is the best I've heard yet. I'd pull a couple days a week myself.
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2012, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyew View Post
The volunteer idea is the best I've heard yet. I'd pull a couple days a week myself.
How 'bout we allow the school employees to volunteer? If they are simply allowed to concealed carry, no one else need do anything.
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2012, 04:57 AM
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Great ideas.
One of the things to be considered when we try and put up solutions to the whole school security issue of using teachers and other un-trained folks is that just by having a CCW, it does not make one a qualified "security" person. I am all in favor of all of the ideas for securing our schools with all the available resources, but I want those who will be protecting my children qualified..I mean really qualified.
I have had permits in 3 different states and nowhere in those tests was I schooled on how to react in a shooter situation and my protecting dozens of others. Now, I have no problem assuming that role and doing my best with past training in my life, but what we need is well trained folks, and good security systems in those schools.
beaglenc
  #8  
Old 12-24-2012, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaglenc View Post
Great ideas.
One of the things to be considered when we try and put up solutions to the whole school security issue of using teachers and other un-trained folks is that just by having a CCW, it does not make one a qualified "security" person. I am all in favor of all of the ideas for securing our schools with all the available resources, but I want those who will be protecting my children qualified..I mean really qualified.
I have had permits in 3 different states and nowhere in those tests was I schooled on how to react in a shooter situation and my protecting dozens of others. Now, I have no problem assuming that role and doing my best with past training in my life, but what we need is well trained folks, and good security systems in those schools.
beaglenc

"Qualification" ruins all. You are surrounded by millions of Americans with guns who are all "unqualified."

"To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss." Federalist 29

The value in having potentially armed school staff is in the deterrence. Their actual shooting skills are secondary. It is the duty of people to protect their community. They are generally happy to do it. Witness volunteers here. Getting government to manage it will absolutely ruin it.

Are we to suppose the people of Newtown are happy an unqualified gun owner didn't stop the shooter?

Joe
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  #9  
Old 12-24-2012, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaglenc View Post
Great ideas.
One of the things to be considered when we try and put up solutions to the whole school security issue of using teachers and other un-trained folks is that just by having a CCW, it does not make one a qualified "security" person. I am all in favor of all of the ideas for securing our schools with all the available resources, but I want those who will be protecting my children qualified..I mean really qualified.
I have had permits in 3 different states and nowhere in those tests was I schooled on how to react in a shooter situation and my protecting dozens of others. Now, I have no problem assuming that role and doing my best with past training in my life, but what we need is well trained folks, and good security systems in those schools.
beaglenc

Good Points Beaglenc!

I should have been more precise in my dialog.
I agree with you that the average CCW carrier is hardly qualified to guard our kids thus the need for a qualification process and training program for these volunteers that is specifically designed for the school atmosphere.
I also believe that background checks and training for these volunteers should be substantial, but, I don't however believe that it's necessary that these volunteers need to pass the extent of a nine week Advanced Infantry Training Course either.
This would far surpass what is presently being considered, which is mimimally qualified armed teachers and staff for these rolls. And even this is still better than what we presently have in place.
  #10  
Old 12-24-2012, 05:51 AM
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Any volunters must have a minimum ability with their weapon of choice, obviously and be put through sufficient stress before a qualification test to ensure they are up to the mark. What is far more important is the choice of the right person for the job. "Strutters" and "Braggers" are not required. A person doing this job has to blend into the background for the sake of the kids. I do think the idea of using ex police/military is a good one because they have the already fairly solid training and have no need to flash themselves about. With all of this volunteering the premises of the school requires some serious protection from maniacs or any others entering without passing through a check point. Obviously the size of the school will regulate how many of these check points are required. I would have thought that someone would already have instigated this upgrade for ALL schools in the USA considering this is not the first time.
In addition metal detectors would prevent supposedly bona fidae schoolkids bringing anything in. Ouch how about the cost ?? OK How many kids?
500 700 1000 .... Each parent chips in $50 a year for starters ... produces $25000 to $50000, then look at advertising/sponsors to raise additional funds, then turn to local and national government.
I do agree that if you let any government agency organise this then it will all go to rat doo doo, like most other things they get involved with.

Last edited by Sus Scrofa; 12-24-2012 at 06:03 AM.
  #11  
Old 12-24-2012, 06:32 AM
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Y'all notice that we spend more on private security than on government security, because the government that was created to provide us with security doesn't do it?

Joe
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2012, 06:53 AM
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Great ideas all. Now for reality. The parents and school boards won't buy it because they know more than we do. Secondly why have a CCW if you can see the gun you are carrying? If you have armed guards they know where they are and will take them out first. Secondly this guy in Newtown blasted his way in and didn't care if anyone knew he was there or what his intentions were. You cannot counter someone whose best day is to die at the end of it and take as many people with him as he can. We will not give. We can't give up anything because they will see it as sign of weakness and then it is over. My 2-cents. Lou
  #13  
Old 12-24-2012, 06:55 AM
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Let me just preface this by saying I think safety in the schools is hugely important but there are a couple of problems with all these ideas being thrown around.

One being, these people from the community (ex-LEOs, Vets, etc...) will not "blend" in the school. You are either a student or a teacher or someone else - and its not hard to spot "someone else" no matter how much they think they blend. Especially if class is in session, i.e. empty halls and common spaces except for 1 or 2 plain clothed guys.

Second being this; with the knowledge that there is someone armed in the school besides the shooter, who becomes the first target?? Once they're down it becomes any other shooting we've seen.
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  #14  
Old 12-24-2012, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillestadj View Post
Let me just preface this by saying I think safety in the schools is hugely important but there are a couple of problems with all these ideas being thrown around.

One being, these people from the community (ex-LEOs, Vets, etc...) will not "blend" in the school. You are either a student or a teacher or someone else - and its not hard to spot "someone else" no matter how much they think they blend. Especially if class is in session, i.e. empty halls and common spaces except for 1 or 2 plain clothed guys.

Second being this; with the knowledge that there is someone armed in the school besides the shooter, who becomes the first target?? Once they're down it becomes any other shooting we've seen.
That is why in my suggestion I included a security fenced outer perimeter with controlled access. CCTV is very cheap these days so the perimeter could be under constant observation and with access only through secured access points then warning of any attack would be well before the assailant got into the building which is what happened here I believe.

Whatever, nothing is going to be absolutely foolproof ...wonder how many spies are floating around our and your most protected areas today ??
  #15  
Old 12-24-2012, 07:13 AM
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It is an excellent idea, to allow for the voluntary CCW of teachers. In many of the schools in our district there are retired military, active national guardsmen, and ex LEO's already in place. I might point out that this is already in place in UTAH, and teachers can and do carry.

Guns will never go away, you can ban them but they will not go away. We have a great police force they have a tough job, but they can not be everywhere. Its a proven fact that an immediate violent reaction to mass shooting violence saves lives. These sub human beings when faced with resistance break off and surrender or kill themselves. 5 to 20 mins to wait for LEO's to show up is to late.

An armed teacher willing to carry is going to be a far greater deterrent standing in front of the door hiding there class then the brave souls that did it unarmed.

God Bless
GF
  #16  
Old 12-24-2012, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guidedfishing View Post
It is an excellent idea, to allow for the voluntary CCW of teachers. In many of the schools in our district there are retired military, active national guardsmen, and ex LEO's already in place. I might point out that this is already in place in UTAH, and teachers can and do carry.

Guns will never go away, you can ban them but they will not go away. We have a great police force they have a tough job, but they can not be everywhere. Its a proven fact that an immediate violent reaction to mass shooting violence saves lives. These sub human beings when faced with resistance break off and surrender or kill themselves. 5 to 20 mins to wait for LEO's to show up is to late.

An armed teacher willing to carry is going to be a far greater deterrent standing in front of the door hiding there class then the brave souls that did it unarmed.

God Bless
GF
I completely agree, when seconds count, the police are just minutes away reality....not their fault, just reality in our current culture.
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  #17  
Old 12-24-2012, 07:33 AM
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I do think that just the knowledge that there is an armed and trained presence in the schools would deter many such instances.
As I have stated in another thread,
"I think that thse types of folks are basically cowards. That's why they always take their own lives. They are not interested in "shooting it out" at all, or they would. If they thought their plan might get them killed or captured before accomplishing their goal, they might go after a "softer" target. That won't help the rest of us out there in the world, but we are adults and I will take my chances, BUT, protect my children at all costs. Yes, if it means money that will go into the security of my childrens school, I am all for it."
  #18  
Old 12-24-2012, 08:01 AM
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You probably need to remove the National Guard from your list of potential guards ! Nearly all NG personel have real life jobs , thus aren't available for the Guard pool . I don't see any need for the guards to blend , it's better to be visable and serve as a deterrent also . I want the perp to know I'm there , and willing and able to kill them on a moments notice !
  #19  
Old 12-24-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guidedfishing View Post
It is an excellent idea, to allow for the voluntary CCW of teachers. In many of the schools in our district there are retired military, active national guardsmen, and ex LEO's already in place. I might point out that this is already in place in UTAH, and teachers can and do carry.

Guns will never go away, you can ban them but they will not go away. We have a great police force they have a tough job, but they can not be everywhere. Its a proven fact that an immediate violent reaction to mass shooting violence saves lives. These sub human beings when faced with resistance break off and surrender or kill themselves. 5 to 20 mins to wait for LEO's to show up is to late.

An armed teacher willing to carry is going to be a far greater deterrent standing in front of the door hiding there class then the brave souls that did it unarmed.

God Bless
GF
You make 2 points that might be overlooked. One is "voluntary CCW" and the other is "willing to carry".

Just as I don't think everyone should carry in other situations, I don't think all teachers etc should carry. IMO someone not willing to use lethal force when needed should not carry. I understand statistics from WW2 indicate about 70% of the soldiers were unwilling to fire their weapons even though they demonstrated bravery in other ways. Someone carrying who is not willing to use force when needed is just another source of a firearm for the bad guy.

I would agree with additional training requirements beyond CCW courses. I would add a financial incentive to the qualified teachers willing to do so (similar to extra compensation given for coaching sports in addition to teaching regular classes).
  #20  
Old 12-24-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillestadj View Post
Let me just preface this by saying I think safety in the schools is hugely important but there are a couple of problems with all these ideas being thrown around.

One being, these people from the community (ex-LEOs, Vets, etc...) will not "blend" in the school. You are either a student or a teacher or someone else - and its not hard to spot "someone else" no matter how much they think they blend. Especially if class is in session, i.e. empty halls and common spaces except for 1 or 2 plain clothed guys.

Second being this; with the knowledge that there is someone armed in the school besides the shooter, who becomes the first target?? Once they're down it becomes any other shooting we've seen.
I agree to a point Hillestadj. However, regardless of the plan, there will never be the perfect plan. And nearly any plan is better than what we presently have in place. Heck....my wife with a pellet gun would be better than what we currently have.

The one important difference here is that security personnel will have the one and only responsibility of security and protection as their only focus. Unlike teachers and staff that have their other day-to-day distractions to deal with.
Also the simple knowlege of armed personnel being in the schools will be a deterant in itself to some. Not all...but some. There was a crime expert on the radio the other day that said that most of these mass killers are cowards and this is why they target easy prey. Even though many plan to take their own lives, they will still avoid places where someone else may do that for them before they do.

The mouse on the ground has much to be concerned with as he scurries through his day.....but not much gets by the eagle in the tree.
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