Cleaning a New Rifle - Page 2

nvshooter · #21 12-21-2012, 09:34 PM

I clean a new rifle just so I know there is nothing in the bore that may cause problems as the bullet passes over it. Peace of mind costs exactly what the rifle cost. Clean it, and POM is free...

unclenick · #22 12-22-2012, 08:39 AM

Grease and lubricant raise pressure if not carefully used. Carbon hardens as it ages, so wear on the barrel is increased when shoving old carbon down the tube as opposed to fresh warm carbon (read Humpy's post, here). Finally, most guns need several shots of fouling to settle. Target shooters have noted that if you change powders in the middle of a match it can take 10 rounds before the bore really settles. You don't know what powder the manufacturer fired through it, so you'd be buying the extra work of re-settling if you left old carbon in it. Finally, the Howa distributors claim to see evidence that hardened carbon in the surface imperfections and tool marks of a new barrel can promote heat walking and they recommend a break-in procedure they claim avoids that by careful firing and cleaning for at least each of the first 10 rounds (which they follow up with another 20 cleaning alternate rounds, but, IIRC, they don't claim that really does anything; seems it more like makes them feel better).

I can't quantify the merits of any of the above ideas and observations any better than that. But if I take Humpy and Howa or even just one or the other at face value, it seems prudent to really get all the carbon out before using the barrel further, even out of the "pores" of the metal (metal is not porous, but some surface imperfections, tool marks, and grain boundary corruptions resemble pores in an electron microscope). I then use the Howa distributor's method for the first ten rounds to see if that really helps avoid heat walking, and so far so good.

Toward that end, I've recently adopted what I think of as aggressive pre-cleaning of any new or used barrel I have occasion to work with. The first thing I do is pull the gun out of its stock and remove any grip panels to avoid solvent damage. I also get a good look at lubrication and interior cleanliness to see if I need to detail strip and clean it.

The next thing I do is use a small pump sprayer to wet the bore and chamber with Boretech Eliminator. This is, IMHO, the best of the jack-of-all-trades cleaners. I let it sit 15 minutes and all that lets me patch out all the surface fouling and a lot of copper fouling is removed by it, too.

I repeat the above, and if much blue comes out on the second pass (use a plastic jag, as a brass one turns it blue), I run a dry patch then a couple of patches wet with Windex followed by a couple of dry patches to remove the Eliminator, and then apply KG-12 and let it sit 15 minutes to get the rest of the copper. I then use a dry patch followed by Windex followed by a dry patch or two again to remove it.

At this point I have a look with a bore scope. If I see any copper, I will repeat with KG-12, but thus far I have not. If you don't have a bore scope, you can repeat with Eliminator to see if any blue appears, then wash it out with Windex and dry patches. KG-12 has relatively little color change as it eats copper, only getting a deeper orange tan. It's hard to tell much from its color.

If the barrel was ever used with lead bullets, at this point I apply No-Lead and let it sit an hour and patch it out. Again I use the dry patch, Windex and dry patches for removing the cleaner.

Now the carbon removal gets serious. I plug the chamber with a chamber plug (or with a Neoprene stopper if I don't have the right size chamber plug), and then fill it to the muzzle with Slip 2000 Carbon Killer. I let this sit for about two hours. This is way beyond the recommended 5-15 minutes, but I've had it take that long to fully soften old, thick carbon cake on a Garand gas piston, and I'm looking for maximum penetration opportunity here. I did, however, have it etch Parkerizing with that long exposure, so I don't let it get on any kind of gun finish now.

After putting the Carbon Killer into a working solution container (it's reusable), I brush out the bore. This is the only time I use a bore brush nowadays. Newer gun cleaning formulations have become so good, simply dissolving and patching out fouling is all that's needed in a properly conditioned bore. I follow the brushing with the dry patch, Windex, dry patch routine.

Next I put either Boretech Carbon Remover or KG-1 carbon remover in the bore and let it sit 15 minutes. This is followed by the dry/Windex/dry patch routine again. These are thinner liquids than the Slip 2000 product and ensure carbon removal has gotten done in the smallest places. It's an insurance policy, really.

The last thing I do is take an undersize bore brush and wrap a couple of patches around it and smear Iosso Bore Cleaner on the outside of the patches. Iosso Bore Cleaner is a mild abrasive cleaner and you could substitute any other brand you chose. I prefer Iosso Bore Cleaner because it does not seem to contain any petroleum products, and I am avoiding those because of the carbon they leave behind after exposure to firing temperatures in a bore. The bore gets 50 strokes with the Iosso product. The patch comes out black from the polishing action. Again I use the dry/Windex/dry patch routine to remove the Iosso product.

At this point the barrel is ready for break-in or re-break-in, as the case may be. The Howa distributor seems to think it is important to shot the first ten in a clean, cold bore to prevent future heat walking. Whether he's right or wrong, the abbreviated version of the routine that I use is so little trouble to fire, there's no real reason not to use it. It is just 10 shots, and I have modified it as follows:

From the clean bore (if you oiled the bore after polishing, bring some brake cleaner or gun scrubber to the range to get every last trace of hydrocarbons out before firing), fire one shot. Run one wet patch with Eliminator. Let it sit two minutes, repeat. Spray and patch out with Bore Scrubber or brake cleaner to remove any trace of hydrocarbons. That should take long enough to cool the bore pretty well, but if not, wait another five minutes and repeat until 10 shots are down range.

At that point the bore is probably about as well prepared as it is ever going to be short of lapping it by one means or another. Howa has you run 10 more shots, cleaning every other shot, but I don't really see the need. As they say, after shot six you see the improvement, but go ahead and do it if you want to.

TMan · #23 12-22-2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclenick

The last thing I do is take an undersize bore brush and wrap a couple of patches around it and smear Iosso Bore Cleaner on the outside of the patches. The bore gets 50 strokes with the Iosso product. The patch comes out black from the polishing action. Again I use the dry/Windex/dry patch routine to remove the Iosso product.

I've used a similar approach on my last few new rifles, and a couple pre-owned M336's that were "hunter level maintained". My last couple M700's were both models going out of production, M700 Mtn rifles, and both had bores filled with snags and tight spots.

Slight variation, I used 20rds of jacketed over Trail Boss per session. The reason is the barrel never really heats up on a five shot string. And after removing powder residue with a few strokes of No.9, I alternate JB and Shooters Choice, until the green goes away. This actually takes several passes.

Is the JB (or any other abraisive), on a tight patch a limp excuse for lapping?

unclenick · #24 12-23-2012, 07:00 AM

In reverse order: That's actually an excellent question about the lapping. I first became aware of the idea through Varmint Al’s site. He uses 50 strokes of Flitz as his barrel break-in procedure. Only if that doesn't reduce fouling well enough does he then go to 50 strokes of JB, IIRC (double-check at his site).

But there's more to this stuff. Based on experience, I’ve long adhered to the principle that revolvers have to have all their ducks in a row to shoot lead well; perfect timing, bore constrictions removed, chamber throats one to two thousandths over groove diameter, and bullets sized to the chamber throats. But reading through the Los Angeles Silhouette Club site, I discovered one fellow puts JB in the bore, then shoots lead squib loads through it to pressure-polish the bore. He found that even with a constriction this stopped leading. That really surprised me. It is likely he has his casting alloy correctly chosen for the pressures involved so the bullets can bump back up after passing through a constriction, but apparently just getting the rough spots smoothed is enough to avoid breaking the gas seal between bullet an bore, making that possible.

David Tubb's Final Finish system does basically the same thing in bores. It surfaces bores rather than firelapping them straight, as it operates at pressure too high for lapping. In lapping you don't want the bullet to bump back up much after passing through a constriction or it cuts against the whole bore surface rather than just the tight spots. But a lot of people say the Final Finish system helps the gun shoot and cuts way down on copper fouling. So there seems to be something to just getting the surface smooth.

As far as Trail Boss goes, with jacketed bullets I guess I wouldn't expect that to work as well for break-on as full power loads. This is, again, because of the bumping up issue. I've tried firelapping with jacketed bullets with light loads, and basically they would leave the inside corners where the lands meet the grooves untouched. It takes some pressure to force a jacketed bullet to fill out in there. The only time I got jacketed bullets to lap well was when I used light ones with short bearing surfaces that had been pulled from heavily crimped military ammo so that the only portions of the bearing surface that made actual contact with the grooves were two rings at either end of the crimp indentation. Those did well even on the inside corners of the rifling.

Also, Howa's theory is that firing factory ammo load levels for break-in as I described will stress the cold steel enough to tend to cause it to take a set in the cold barrel position. That’s what they think stops the barrel from walking with temperature afterward. I've not verified that one way or the other, but I don’t see the volume of barrels they do. If there's something to it, then full powder loads would be a prerequisite for effective break-in, despite the added cooling time required. For lead bullet shooting and for fire lapping, though, Trail Boss is great.

BKeith · #25 12-23-2012, 02:22 PM

I've always stuck to the advise to not even fire one with the oil film most people leave in one after cleaning, because it will turn to carbon residue that you really don't want in the barrel. KG products has one that they claim you should leave in because it actually leaves a coating that extends barrel life and makes cleaning much easier after a few uses. I've just recently started using it, so can't say if I've seen a difference or not.

TMan · #26 12-24-2012, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclenick

As far as Trail Boss goes, with jacketed bullets I guess I wouldn't expect that to work as well for break-on as full power loads.
It takes some pressure to force a jacketed bullet to fill out in there.

Also, Howa's theory is that firing factory ammo load levels for break-in as I described will stress the cold steel enough to tend to cause it to take a set in the cold barrel position.

OK.

I actually used longer/heavier bullets over Trail Boss at 99% load density. Looking at some IMR data, the pressure for that combo is actually quite high. Not max by any means, but not for older weapons in questionable condition. They run much cooler than factory, a lot, and the Howa reference was one of the reasons I tried that route.

I'm wondering about filling the crimp groove with JB though, then seating below the groove.

unclenick · #27 12-24-2012, 12:12 PM

You could maybe recover some of your fired bullets to see how well filled out the engraving is. A good sign for the Trail Boss loads would be if copper fouling were as high as with subsequent factory rounds, as that indicates the friction against the bore, which does the burnishing, is the same. Much of that friction is due to pressure upsetting the bullet outward against the bore, and is why copper fouling in an evenly surfaced bore is heaviest where the bullet is located when pressure peaks (the first few inches just beyond the throat). Also, a larger charge weight of a slower powder will keep that upsetting pressure higher up as you go further down the bore, which may also be important to burnishing. I know, specifically, that it's not important for fire lapping, but there you have abrasive cutting action and not firm rubbing doing the work.

Putting JB into grease grooves of cast bullets has been done. You won't get a lot into a jacketed bullet crimp cannelure, though, so I am hard put to say how much you will get out of that. One problem with JB for this purpose, per what BKeith said, is that it is saturated with petroleum based oil that will down to carbon at fairly modest temperatures. You really want a synthetic oil as the base for anything you put in there, as its much higher combustion temperature tends to escape that pratfall. Slip 2000 gun oil and Mobil 1 oil are examples.

You can make a pretty fair fine polish by getting a bag of diatomaceous earth from the garden center and mixing it to a paste with one of the synthetic oils. Just don't use anything with Teflon in it. Teflon was tried in bores in the early 90's. It turns out it changes properties as it heats, actually making the gun less consistent in its performance over a range of temperatures. It's what abrasive toothpaste and polish used to use.

TMan · #28 12-26-2012, 08:50 AM

Thanks for your time with that response.

Fouling even with the TB loads is pretty extensive. Really not distinguishable from full power stuff.

I actually have a supply of diatomaceous earth, its's used as a pool filtrate additive. I have some Rooster Red, and may take a pass at that in the interest of science.

I wish I had a bore scope, and should put one on my list.

BKeith · #29 12-26-2012, 03:37 PM

Don't say where you heard it but you might want to check out some KG2. Pretty good stuff.

Also, if you want to get the copper out and not have to work at it, plug the chamber or barrel in the neck part and fill it with KG12. Usually in less than 30 minutes, there is no signs of copper