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  #1  
Old 03-25-2009, 09:36 PM
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Savage Model 40 problems


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My shooting buddy, Steve. had to send his new .22 Hornet back to Savage. It would not accept reloads, since it ruined the cases after the first shot. They told him after a bout with the gunsmith, that they replaced the bolt and the barrel.

When he got the gun back we took it to the range and Steve shot several reloads with no apparent problems. But I noticed that I could wiggle the end of the cartridge case back and forth with my finger. To my way of thinking the "new" barrel was not to specs.

At this point Steve shot a brand new Remington round in the rifle and the case got stuck. I tapped it out with my ramrod and Steve loaded another round. There was a strange crack when Steve fired the next shot. Another brand new round from Remington. When Steve opened the bolt, the head of the cartridge came out and left the rest of the case in the chamber. I advised Steve to return the rifle to Savage along with the cartridge head and told him to leave the blown case body in the chamber so there would be no argument about where the fault lies.

My reason for this is that Savage blamed the problems last time on Steve. Steve has MS and he added a piece of black plastic to the bolt knob so he can open the bolt easier. The bolt was very hard to open so that is why he modified it with the plastic. Steve is the anal retentive reloader I wrote about some months back! He cleans the cases until they are spotless, inside and out. He measures every load, every case, weighs his bullets, etc. He also blows out all dust from the polishing drum with air before he reloads them! To put it another way, his reloads are the only ones I will shoot in my rifles and I have never had a single problem with them.

Steve has returned the rifle to Savage again. But I would like an opinion from some of the gunsmiths on this Forum. Doesn't the fact that I could move a cartridge around with the tip of my finger, indicate an over large chamber? Or could it possibly be something else? I dislike disputing someone's word, but the scope was still dead on, even though it was supposed to be a new replacement barrel. They did replace the bolt, that I know for sure.

There was a gunsmith at the range and after checking the brass that Steve had fired he said that he thought the chamber was not to spec. Since we had no GO /NO GO gauges we could not check it that way. Any opinions?

Thanks,

longrangehunter
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Old 03-25-2009, 10:29 PM
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Case separation is usually caused from excessive headspace or cases being sized to small for a chamber which again is excessive headspace.

I would probably have a gunsmith remove the separated case and check the headspace with a headspace gauge. This is a non-invasive check and will tell you immediately if the chamber is out of spec. This report from your gunsmith should go with the rifle back to Savage if you send it back for repair. Not checking the headspace leaves you with only Savage's say so on what is wrong with the rifle.

I've never had any trouble with Savage and repair work, but independent verification of the problem sure is a good backup if they say something else is wrong. Keep in mind that it also simply could be a bad batch of factory ammo. The headspace check will also tell you that.
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Old 03-25-2009, 11:55 PM
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Excellent idea, but.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb View Post
Case separation is usually caused from excessive headspace or cases being sized to small for a chamber which again is excessive headspace.

I would probably have a gunsmith remove the separated case and check the headspace with a headspace gauge. This is a non-invasive check and will tell you immediately if the chamber is out of spec. This report from your gunsmith should go with the rifle back to Savage if you send it back for repair. Not checking the headspace leaves you with only Savage's say so on what is wrong with the rifle.

I've never had any trouble with Savage and repair work, but independent verification of the problem sure is a good backup if they say something else is wrong. Keep in mind that it also simply could be a bad batch of factory ammo. The headspace check will also tell you that.
Howdy Bob,

I'm afraid that Steve has already mailed the rifle back. I asked Steve to have that done first but he is so angry now that all he wanted to do was send the rifle back ASAP. I told him that verification would be an asset, but when Steve gets angry he just shuts down until what is bugging him is out of sight or out of mind. I do have access to the remained of the box of Remington ammo. I can check it to see how close it is to spec if that would do any good at this point. I do know that the several rounds that he shot through the rifle first were from the same box of ammo. He fired three rounds and reloaded them three times before we took the rifle to the range. With no problems. Since he doesn't full length resize cases that he shoots in any one rilfe, I suspect that they worked because they were already fire formed to the chamber? That does not explain why the ones he fired at the range did what they did.

Thanks for the reply and I will relay what you had to say to Steve. Maybe next time cooler heads will prevail? He sent the Warrenty paperwork in the day he got the rifle and has had problems with since the first time he fired it. I wrote the Forum several months back about the problems he was having with cartrifges that would only reload once and then split. HE tried everything that I got back in reply and finally sent the rilfe to Savage. They immediately sent him back a letter saying that a new bolt would cost him about $200. I don't remember the exact amount but that figure is close. Steve really got angry since the rifle was only a few months old at that point! And Steve babies his rifles. After he shoots one it is spotless before it is put away. It was clean when he sent it back the first time and they charged him for cleaning it!

So you can see why he is so angry now. He even sent fired cases along with the rifle and before the gunsmith even looked at the rifle they threw them away. That is what the factory rep told Steve. Steve insisted that they fire the rifle before installing a new bolt and told them to look at his registration since the gun was supposed to be under warranty. They finally sent the gun back and said that they had installed a new bolt and a new barrel. Frankly, at this point I think I would be a little upset myself. I just hope that they do fix the rifle properly this time. Should the problem happen again, I will insist that Steve take the rifle to a qualified gunsmith and have him write a letter for Steve. However, I do know that when I had that problem with my rifle, they insisted that it be a Savage approved gunsmith.

Thanks again for the reply and the suggestions.

Respectfully,

longrangehunter
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Old 03-26-2009, 06:55 AM
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Given, all the problems, your friend is having with the M-40 Savage Hornet rifle; I'd ask for a refund and then buy another Hornet rifle either a CZ, Browning, or one the the single shot rifles in .22 Hornet.
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Old 03-26-2009, 08:42 AM
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I sure understand the frustration. Just went round and round with Howa on a rifle they shipped with a broken safety. Howa voids the warrentee if anyone adjusts the adjustable trigger that comes on the rifle unless it's a Howa certified gunsmith. I ended up repairing the safety and it now works, but it's sure frustrating.

Savage has always been good about repairing factory defects, but any time you make a modification to a rifle and then send it in for warrentee work you run afoul of the warrentee Gods, sorry to say. Howa wanted near $200.00 to replace a trigger group on a rifle that had just come out of the box and never been fired.

I'd recommend your friend not do any modification on his rifle when returned until he's satisfied with the accuracy and operation when he gets it back. I'll also second the recommendation on the CZ 527. Mine is my favorite go to the woods gun of everything I own.
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Old 03-26-2009, 09:30 AM
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Doesn't Marlin own Savage now? Maybe their warranty program has changed with the new ownership.
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  #7  
Old 03-26-2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdub View Post
Doesn't Marlin own Savage now? Maybe their warranty program has changed with the new ownership.
I believe the folks that bought Remington out bought Marlin and NEF. I think Savage is still independent from that. I think I heard they were moving NEF's production facality to the main Remington plant.
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:39 AM
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Mind reader?

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Originally Posted by Davers View Post
Given, all the problems, your friend is having with the M-40 Savage Hornet rifle; I'd ask for a refund and then buy another Hornet rifle either a CZ, Browning, or one the the single shot rifles in .22 Hornet.
Wow! You must be psychic, because that is exactly what he told me that he was going to do. I spoke with him this A.M. and he said that he is already getting another run around! He is now waiting for the gentleman who tried to help him last time around, to call him back. He also told me that he either wanted a new rifle or he wanted his money back on the rifle!

Frankly, I hope that he gets his cash back and buys a CZ. The gunsmith at the range who we talked to after the case head blew off was shooting a CZ ( you guessed it) in .22 Hornet!

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Old 03-26-2009, 11:59 AM
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No real modifications.

[QUOTE=faucettb;418766]I sure understand the frustration. Just went round and round with Howa on a rifle they shipped with a broken safety. Howa voids the warrentee if anyone adjusts the adjustable trigger that comes on the rifle unless it's a Howa certified gunsmith. I ended up repairing the safety and it now works, but it's sure frustrating.

Savage has always been good about repairing factory defects, but any time you make a modification to a rifle and then send it in for warrentee work you run afoul of the warrentee Gods, sorry to say. "

Howdy bob,

The ONLY modification that Steve did to the returned rifle was to add a block of hard plastic to the bolt handle knob so that he can grasp the bolt to open it. That can hardly affect the chamber or the bolt. But I do understand exactly what you are getting at. I tried to tell him not to add anything until after he had tried the rebuilt rifle. A glove would have done what he needed until he had tried the rifle out. If they do send him a new rifle, I plan to drag Steve down here and have him read what everyone wrote! No mods until after he shoots it and is sure that it's AOK.

Sounds like you certainly do understand his frustration. Same song, second verse; second verse, same as the first! As for warranty changes, should Marlin have bought them out, I would suspect that the warranty would be better! I am really impressed with the folks at Marlin. BTW, the trigger on my new Marlin 1895 CB is better than the trigger that came with my Savage Police Model rifle! Marlin has real quality.

Speaking of "warranty gods", Savage is the same way. It has to be a Certified Savage gunsmith or they won't honor the warranty. I ran into that when I asked about changing my bolt handle to the heavier one. After all the changes I have had to make to get my Savage to shoot better, I nixed the warranty and installed the bolt handle myself. If the barrel doesn't start shooting heavy bullets any better than it has been, I'll buy a new barrel later on and install it myself.

I should hear from Steve later today and I'll let you know what happened. BTW, Steve really liked that CZ at the gun range.

Ken M.

longrangehunter
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  #10  
Old 03-28-2009, 10:23 PM
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Update on Savage problem

Howdy Bob, and all who replied,

Steve shipped the rifle back along with the seperated case head and a letter. Apparently, the letter or something had results since they called him and they are makeing a cast of the chamber. the man who called Steve said there would be NO problems and that they know it was not his fault that this problem happened this time.

So it appears that they are going to set things straight. I'll let you know what happens next.

Thanks!

longrangehunter
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Old 03-29-2009, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longrangehunter View Post
Howdy Bob, and all who replied,

Steve shipped the rifle back along with the seperated case head and a letter. Apparently, the letter or something had results since they called him and they are makeing a cast of the chamber. the man who called Steve said there would be NO problems and that they know it was not his fault that this problem happened this time.

So it appears that they are going to set things straight. I'll let you know what happens next.

Thanks!

longrangehunter
Glad to hear your Friend has resolved his problem with his Savage M-40. Hope they will (Savage Arms) will make things right!
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Old 04-07-2009, 02:40 PM
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Sounded like excessive head spacing. Also It is acceptable to have a little .004 wiggle in the body of the chamber. My Savage 300WSM had what I believed excessive headspace(.010). I had stiff bolt lift allot. I only noticed it after I made a home made gauge out of a deep well socket that fell directly mid shoulder on the case. I can't remember the size socket but the case fit snuggly on the sides and would measure the fired case datum point, which you would compare to an unfired case. That was with factory ammo, which by the way measured the same as full resized cases from my dies. I've since made a shim to only bump the shoulder.002 back from actual chamber dimensions.
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:02 PM
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Lost, one Savage lover!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davers View Post
Glad to hear your Friend has resolved his problem with his Savage M-40. Hope they will (Savage Arms) will make things right!
Howdy Forum members,

Steve had to send the rifle back again after a case seperation of a brand new cartridge. They apparently did not do what they said they would do. After sending it back this time, they tried once again to blame the problem on Steve and I for one, know that Steve did NOT do anything to ruin that rifle. Frankly, Savage has really gone down a notch in my opinion. They treated Steve badly. After being told that they would charge Steve for a new barrel, etc. Steve told them to ship the rifle back and bid them farewell.

One thing is for sure, if I ever have a problem with either of my Savage rifles I will NOT send them to Savage for repair! Their attitude from the beginning was that Steve had ruined the rifle and it was all his fault. I know otherwise and it has left me doubting their advertising and their honesty. BTW, Steve got rid of the Savage and now has a Remington.

I don't know if the problem was with just that one rifle, but I would like to hear from anyone who has had similar problems with a Savage, Model 40, .22 Hornet rifle. If you had to send the rifle back to the factory, how were you treated?

Thanks,

longrangehunter
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:11 PM
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I once had some thots of getting one of the new Savages ...but I slapped myself upside the head and snapped right out of it quickly.....

this is terrible....with all the goings on in the gun world, this is the last thing a rifle manufacturer needs .... poor service is poor management at best and dispicable in my view .....good case for buying a custom rifle.... having been in the service industry for many years, it's just plain DUMB to allow this kind of response to a customer complaint ....some heads need to roll....get somebody in there that will provide good service, and Savage would be miles ahead....
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Old 05-01-2009, 08:11 PM
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I once had some thots of getting one of the new Savages ...but I slapped myself upside the head and snapped right out of it quickly.....

this is terrible....with all the goings on in the gun world, this is the last thing a rifle manufacturer needs .... poor service is poor management at best and dispicable in my view .....good case for buying a custom rifle.... having been in the service industry for many years, it's just plain DUMB to allow this kind of response to a customer complaint ....some heads need to roll....get somebody in there that will provide good service, and Savage would be miles ahead....
After making a few calls myself, I have come to the conclusion that Savage is not the company they once were. The higher priced rifles sre quite good, but after Steves problems I have decided to brteak down and buy a Remington since at least there are decent triggers and replacement safetys out there for them. I'm still playing with my new SAV 2 trigger and may end up sending the whole rifle to them to see why I can't seem to get it to work properly. The Savage trigger that came on my .308 was terrible, especially for a rifle sold as a Police Model where a good trigger is really important. I also replaced the stock with a Choate and it is great.
Having my one of my best friends basically called a liar really turned me off to Savage's comsumer affairs people as well as their gunsmiths. Steve is the sort of man who you hope that you get for a friend. he is a Christian, and is as honest as the day is long. He also treats his firearms better than most foks take care of their new autos. After shooting the first thing he does is clean it completely. As for his reloads I have never had a single problem with any of them. Until I got my new RCBS Competition Die Set, Steve did all of my target loads for me. He weighs every single bullet, and uses an RCBS electronic scale to make sure the loads are consistant, etc. So their accusing him of overloading his Hornet rounds is poppy cock! The case that seperated was brand new, and the Crony proved that the loads were well within specs!

I have to agree with you that their attitude is rather poor, especially now. But what goes around comes around. An old saying about being careful how you treat folks on the way up is still true.

longrangehunter
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Old 04-03-2010, 04:26 PM
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The situation with Savage is deplorable when a company will not stand behind a defective product that is dangerous to use. Instead they start playing legal games about warrantee coverage. I don't know about other people but I had just bought a Model 93 .22 WMR rifle from Savage last month. I also need to buy a smaller caliber varmit rifle later this year to replace a .243 that I sold. I was considering buying a Savage Model 25 but after reading this, the new rifle will NOT be a Savage. Savage thinks that they can treat Steve as they have because he can't get to them financially. However our checkbooks collectively can get to Savage and mine will, starting now.

Savage is about to become the last low cost firearm manufacturer left standing in the US. Marlin/H&R have been served their walking papers by Cerebrus, the triple-headed hound of **** (a.k.a. Remington and Chrysler). All 250 some machinists, skilled trades and engineers ahave been fired from Marlin and the company will be closed from producing retail firearms in the future. All future work in the Marlin plant will be military contract. Ask me if I am glad now that Terribrus bought Marlin. So much for reasonably priced, quality, American made firearms.
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