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  #1  
Old 01-24-2004, 08:44 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fallon Nevada
Posts: 184
Question Lengthen '98 Mauser magazine


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I have a vz24 that was rebarreled by a previous owner in .270 Winchester. The magazine box is still the original 8mm. I want to fix this before the winter is out.
Brownell's has a floorplate for .30-06-sized cartridges @ $26.10. Is this what I need?

I'm certain one of you has done this before so can you guide me?

Background:
I purchased this from a gunshop owner who was going out of buiness. The asking price was $150 so I didn't barter with him. He had personally hunted with this gun.
I don't know the genesis of the barrel but it's really unusual; .2766" groove dia. and five very narrow grooves only .0008"(!) deep. The chamber is short to the point that I really have to bear down hard on the bolt handle to close it the first time I shoot a particular casing and I get mild pressure signs from factory ammo. So factory ammo is out. That's OK because I already had handloading dies.
I developed a hunting load this fall, using Nosler 140-grain partitions and H4831. (I found it gave me a standard deviation of only
9.00 fps @ 2915 fps avg. with 53.4 grains,
9.27 fps SD @ 2935 fps avg. with 53.7 grains, and
16.09 fps SD @ 3042 fps avg. with 54.0 grains.
The loading manuals uniformly list ~3000 fps as maximum for a 140-grain bullet and the increase of the standard deviation pointed me toward leaving it at 53.7 grains.)
This is anextraordinarily fast and efficient barrel!
However, its accuracy is only so-so; 6" groups at 300 yards.

The stock is the military stock, sporterized and bedded. I replaced the fossilized rubber butpad.

The safety is a Buhler. The safety didn't work easily until after I'd replaced the trigger and done the requisite honing.
The trigger was the roughest I'd ever shot. I replaced the military trigger with a Power Custom unit. I'm quite pleased with Mr. Power's trigger although I was surprised (1) at how much wood I had to remove to fit it in and (2) how much hardened steel I had to remove to make the safety operable. However, both now work slick. It now has a better trigger than any other gun in my possession.

Sorry about making such a long story...

When I developed the load, I was single-loading cartridges into the magazine and didn't even think about putting more than two cartidges into the magazine until it was quite late into the process. I figure, if I need more than two shots, I shouldn't have pulled the trigger in the first place.
I've found I really want a longer magazine box to accommodate .270 Win. cartidges. What's the best way?

-91
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  #2  
Old 01-24-2004, 11:07 AM
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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Just adding the floorplate isn't going to help with the magazine extension. The magazine box will have to be replaced (Brownell's, again) or the one you have to be lengthened a tad by cutting and adding additional sidewall metal.

The feed ramp will have to be reshaped to allow the longer cartridge OAL in the magazine, as well.

Your stock innards will probably have to be relieved to accomodate the lengthened magazine.
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  #3  
Old 01-24-2004, 11:22 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Sandy, UT
Posts: 1,150
91C,

There are several points to be addressed before the magazine!

1. I would have done or do a chamber cast. Since you are having trouble with factory ammo the neck may be the problem. The chamber needs to be corrected before anything else is done. If you are getting pressure signs with factory this is a very real safety issue.

2. .2766 isn't unusual, and the dimention probably varies down the length of the barrel. So far as the groove depth, .0008 would be difficult to detect visually and would look like a smoothbore. Are you sure of this?

3. Five grooves makes it likely to be an Ackley barrel.

4. Instead of lenghtening the magazine you could try seating the bullets a little deeper instead. You won't give up much performance, and this is a lot easier.

5. Now to the original question. A longer floorplate will not fit, and has nothing to do with the box length. The box can be lengthened by several methods, all of which will also entail lengthening the magazine well in the receiver. This has to be done to the front of the well.

Method 1, glass bed the front of the magazine box with a bedding compound that gets hard, not a gel which can stay somewhat pliable. A steel filled epoxy is excellent. After bedding, cut out the front of the magazine box and cut the well forward to correspond with the new front wall of the box (the bedding). This is the easiest and will last as long as the rifle.

Method 2, cut out the front of the box and move it forward not more than 1/8" and weld it back to the magazine box filling the gap. Again you will need to cut the front of the well forward to correspond to the new position of the front wall. You will then need to re-inlet the front of the magazine.

Method 1 is my preferred method as there is much less work and it is just as durable, at least it will last as long as the barrel!

Again, get that chamber checked first, you shoudn't see any pressure signs with factory unless there is a serious problem there.
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  #4  
Old 01-24-2004, 11:04 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fallon Nevada
Posts: 184
Thanks for your replies.

CB,
Thanks for your concern about the chamber. I tried to cast it with Cerrosafe but all I accomplished was, I made a mess. However, .2775" Remington bullets are a rattle-fit in the casing after the case is shot in this chamber so I don't think the neck's too tight.
I've never seen severe pressure signs. No craters, just really flat primers.
The lands are as plain as the girl next door. I slugged it and I've rechecked it multiple times. Yes, that's 8 ten-thousandths, not 8 thousandths of an inch. It appears to stabilize jacketed bullets OK but I have no plans to try to shoot lead because the rifling is too shallow.
That's interesting that it might be an Ackley.
Cutting up the magazine box is more than I wanted to do. That's without re-shaping the feed ramp. I'd hoped that simply installing the PAWS triggerguard and floorplate that has the longer magazine box for .30-06 class cartridges (and, of course, removing wood to make it fit) would suffice. I'd also wondered about the follower fitting in the extended box.
It sounds like I'm better off to just reduce the COL down to whatever fits in the box although that will give an awfully long jump to the rifling.
If I do go ahead with modifying it, the welding is out. I'm not a welder and I don't know anyone in this county I'd have do it. We do have someone who's really good at building trailers and hitches.

Maybe what I really should do is have it rebarreled in something more appropriate to the magazine length. .257 Roberts comes to mind, as does .260 Remington.
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  #5  
Old 01-25-2004, 12:28 PM
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
 
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Location: Mesa, Arizona
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Understand about not undertaking a complex job - mine usually end up costing more than if a competent gunsmith had done it for me.

If you like the .270 caliber, why not consider the new .270 WSM? I'm not familiar with the bolt face dimensions of your rifle and if it has enough metal to take opening up to the WSM's rim diameter, or not. The .270 Win has a .473" rim, while the .270WSM has a .535" rim. This will feed through your short action if the guide rails are profiled a bit to accept the fatter case, and you will lose one round capacity in the magazine, but could have the barrel rechambered with little difficulty.

All the above is normally a bit more than a home shop project for most of us. If too much, your idea of a .257 Rob'ts, 6.5x55mm, .260 Rem, 7-08, 7x57mm, etc., would make a fine rifle, also.
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  #6  
Old 01-26-2004, 12:22 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fallon Nevada
Posts: 184
kdub,
Thanks for your advice. I really don't want to try to convert a controlled round fed gun like a Mauser '98 to the short, fat WSM for reasons beyond having to have a competant gunsmith enlarge the bolt face. Controlled round feeding works best with long, slender, tapered cartidges because they make the rim present less of an angle to the bolt face, making it easier for rim to slip up into its proper recess. Notice that the new Winchesters chambered for the WSMs aren't true controlled round fed. I'd also lose magazine capacity to the fat rounds, although (obviously) I'm not too worried about that.
I think I'll just develop new loadings with a shorter COL for the time being. However ...
6.5x57mm was a standard but unpopular chambering. I've never seen one but the case could be easily formed from 7x57mm. Loading data would be a little hard to come by. Being a little longer than the 260Rem and being native to the magazine box, it should feed with no trouble. It would make a fine caliber for pronghorn and deer.

-91
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  #7  
Old 01-26-2004, 05:29 PM
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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Well, I'll be - !

Strange you should mention it - I've got a Swede '96 (actually, a 1941 Husquavarna) that has been modified to the 6.5x257 AI. That's a 7mm Mauser case necked down to 6.5 and blown out to the Ackley Improved configuration.

In addition, don't believe the stuff of controlled round feed not working well with the short, fat cases. I've also got an old model Ruger M77 that has a Shilen barrel chambered in 7mm Dakota. That round is based on a .404 Jeffery case that has been shortned and necked down to 7mm. Had to open up the guide rails and the bolt face to accomodate and lose the mandatory one round in the magazine, but it works slick as a gut and the mauser type extractor snaps over those rims like it was meant to do it all along.
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  #8  
Old 01-26-2004, 08:16 PM
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If you need loading data for 6.5x57, Ken Water's book Pet Loads has a write up on it.
Kdub, do you mean the original design Ruger 77 with the tang safety?
That action isn't really a controlled feed action. The 77 Mk11 is.
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  #9  
Old 01-26-2004, 08:43 PM
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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Hmmmm............

Why the long Mauser extractor on the old style M77's?

After owning a M77 in 7 RM since 1972 and the converted one since 1987, I never noticed the bolt face is enclosed like a push feed. Took the newer M77MkII V/T out and sure enough, the bottom of the bolt face is open like the Mauser's. Always just thought since all of them had the Mauser type extractor they were controlled feed.

Now, why do you suppose ol' Bill Ruger did that? More positive extraction? The Sako's are push feed with a hook extractor and is noted for it's extraction capabilities - why didn't Bill just adopt that instead of strapping on the long extractor?

Thanks for making me look, Jack - learn something even in my advanced age!
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  #10  
Old 01-27-2004, 04:13 PM
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Talking


KDub, I've always wondered about the long extractor on the old 77's myself. Only thing I can guess is either cosmetics (make it look like a Mauser), or as a bolt guide, to make the bolt work more smoothly.
Good point about the Sako extractor - they do work well, and I'd have thought cheaper to make than the long 77 extractor...
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