» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Handguns Category > Handgun Cartridges
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-18-2004, 07:08 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 35
.45 Colt +P and/or .45 ACP +P in Taurus 450T?


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


The 2004 G&A Annual lists the Taurus 450T as being chambered for .45 Colt +P (page 132). PLEASE - I don't want this to turn into a debate about how much recoil a sane person will be able to handle in a 19.2 oz pistol - I just want to know if this is accurate. The Taurus site doesn't mention +P for the 450 or 450T.

I'm not interested in launching cannonballs from this thing (and I haven't purchased it yet), I just want to know if I can safely reload above 14,000 psi consistently. I am also considering getting the cylinder cut for moonclips in order to shoot .45 ACP or possibly .45 Super. The .460 Rowland seems WAAAAY too far above the .45 LC SAAMI specs - so I'm not even considering it.

So there ya go, two part question:

1. 45 LC +P from a Taurus 450T: yes or no?

2. .45 ACP +P / .45 Super from a Taurus 450T (after moonclip conversion of course): yes or no?

Thanks in advance!

Ron
__________________
Ron
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-18-2004, 09:08 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Duvall, Wa
Posts: 106
The Taurus manuals a couple years ago said that the medium frame 45 Colts were rated for +P, but they've stopped saying that now for unknown reasons.

In theory the cylinder should be able to handle higher pressure loads, the 45 ACP is at 19,000 PSI afterall, so the 45 Colt cylinder should be fine with those loads too.

I haven't heard of anyone blowing one up yet (not saying it's impossible, just that I haven't seen one yet).
__________________
John

http://www.handloads.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-18-2004, 09:55 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 35
45 LC +P / 41 Mag / 357 Mag

Thanks John.

Ok, now I'm going to open up a can of worms... This may be more appropriate in the 'handguns' section (not 'handgun cartridges'), but because I need help with cartridge selection too, I'm going to go ahead and post it here.

Need advice on a purchase. I need a gun for concealed carry, home defense and hunting (up to whitetail). One gun - one gun only.

Most important characteristic: CONCEALABILTY. I plan on carrying it in a jacket pocket during cold weather, and would like it to function IN the pocket (if necessary - for self defense - of course). That rules out autos. I understand that will necessitate a hammer shroud if I get a conventional SA/DA revolver. Shouldn't be a problem though, right?

I've narrowed down my choices to the obvious front-runners. I already mentioned the Taurus 450T (.45 Colt +P and possibly .45 ACP +P with moonclips). Its 'brother' Taurus 415T (.41 Mag) is also under consideration. Both are decidedly less 'concealable' than a .357 Mag J-frame (or equivalent). All are 5-shot and will take care of two-legged self-defense purposes with authority. For whitetail however, the .41 Mag (in particular) and .45 LC +P have a distinct advantage over the .357.

BTW - common sense will dictate all shots at game. I'm not going to take a shot at something too far away, so please let's limit discussion to caliber and gun choices and not how far away the deer should be.

Like I said - CONCEALABILITY is my main consideration. Would I sacrifice too much power in the name of concealability by going with the little J-frame? The Taurus obviously has better sights too.

Thanks again!

Ron
__________________
Ron
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-18-2004, 11:51 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Duvall, Wa
Posts: 106
It's not one that you've listed, but Taurus is coming out with a 4" 44 Mag on the same frame as the 41 and 45 Colt. Being a 4" it would be harder to conceal, but winter coats often have large pockets. That would also make it a much better choice for any deer you come across.

It's still roughly "K" frame size, so with any kind of a decent holster concealability shouldn't be to difficult.

I rather think you need 2 guns for the tasks you've outlined, or you're going to have to make some big compromises one way or the other.
__________________
John

http://www.handloads.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-18-2004, 07:01 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 608
I dont think your going to get it all in one gun. but the closest thing i can think of would either be a used .45 Colt S&W mountian gun (4" barrel) its an N frame so thats a little hard to hide. OR a S&W model 686P 7shot, L-frame, .357 magnum. Or possibly a model 66, its a K frame .357, slightly smaller. Thats my personal opinion, but if it was up to me i'd save some and buy a 6 or 8 inch revolver for hunting and a 2 or 3 inch for home defence and carry.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-18-2004, 08:04 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 35
Thanks again, guys. Yes, I know that the situation that I have outlined will require some serious compromise one way or another. The area that I do NOT want to compromise in however, is concealability. This gun will primarily be for carrying. Every once in a blue moon I may use it for a whitetail or something. It will never sport a scope, but may get one of those super-low-profile red dots like the Optima/JPoint or Docter... IF it remains concealable by doing so.

So, 99.9% of the time the gun will be used for concealed carry (self defense) and as a 'nightstand' gun. Once in a while - within reason - I'll may want to hunt with it.

John - the .44 you mentioned sounds potent indeed. The 4" barrel may tilt my scale a bit too much away from the 'concealable' side though...

44SandW - great advice, but I'd like to keep it at 'K-frame-or-smaller' if possible. I agree that two guns would be a much better way to go.

So I back to the original dilemma...

There are about a million articles about the .357 mag as being an extremely potent manstopper, but only marginal for deer-sized game if all conditions are perfect, not too long of a shot, yada yada yada... Shorten the barrel to snub-nosed size (J-frame, etc) and use only fixed sights, and now I think I may be pushing the 'marginal' envelope a bit too far for an ethical shot at deer-sized game.

Soooo... my idea was to bump up the frame size just a tad, use a much bigger round and possibly adjustable sights (though I'm a little worried about the 'snag' factor), and voila! A conealable gun that I can hunt with every once in a while. My choices are:

.357 mag: unquestionable man-stopping ability, EXTREME concealability in a J-frame or equivalent, but with a short barrel and fixed sights, maybe a bit short for deer-sized game.

.41 mag Taurus 415T: much, much smaller selection of bullets for self-defense, BUT an awesome hunting cartridge for darn near anything in North America. The short barrel will take a little away from published ballistics however, and the 20 oz weight will NOT be fun to shoot... unless you're into pain!

.45 Colt Taurus 450T: great man-stopper, great selection of bullets for any application, low pressure means more fun to shoot (less bang), but still some serious recoil if I go with the +P rounds (for hunting). Also, some states don't allow hunting with .45 Colt. Not as good as the .41 mag for hunting, but better for self-defense (I think?).

.44 Mag Taurus: 4" barrel is too long.

Sorry for the long post - and thanks again!

- Ron
__________________
Ron
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-18-2004, 08:36 PM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 27,193
My own personal hide is too valuable to compromise with, so defense gun is going to be the very best I can carry in a variety of situations. The 7-shot .357 snubbie wins for me, personally.

Get another gun for deer hunting, even an old, beat up Super Blackhawk is a better hunting choice than 99% of the guns sold for concealed-carry, and not a lot more money.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-18-2004, 10:04 PM
NITRO's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Mississippi Gulf Coast
Posts: 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnK
The Taurus manuals a couple years ago said that the medium frame 45 Colts were rated for +P, but they've stopped saying that now for unknown reasons.

In theory the cylinder should be able to handle higher pressure loads, the 45 ACP is at 19,000 PSI afterall, so the 45 Colt cylinder should be fine with those loads too.

I haven't heard of anyone blowing one up yet (not saying it's impossible, just that I haven't seen one yet).

Two years ago I bought a Taurus M450 in .45 Colt, 2 1/2" barrel, Ultra Lite, SS, ported. The frame is aluminum alloy and the rest of the revolver is made of stainless steel. It weighs 19 or 20 oz. unloaded. The Taurus catalog stated that the M450 UL was rated .45+P Colt. As you stated, that is no longer the case.

What are the pressure specifications for a .45+P Colt cartridge anyway. I can find specs for .38+P and .38+P+ Special, .45 ACP +P, 9mm+P, .257 Roberts +P, etc, but no .45+P Colt. I called Cor Bon ammo company and inquired about using their .45 Colt / Mag +P Hunting ammo in the M450 Taurus and was told "no way". I already knew that the Cor Bon 300 gr. JHP at 1300 fps and 1126 fpe is double the energy of .45 Colt published loads and had no intention of ever shooting any in the Taurus M450 UL. They did say that it would be OK to use their .45 Colt Self Defence ammo which is a 200 gr JHP at 1100 fps and 537 fpe. Cor-Bon also stated that anything that is safe to shoot in a Colt Single Action Army revolver whould be safe in the Taurus M450 UL.

My Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, third edition, states, in part, as follows:

"Shooting jacketed Hornady pistol bullets in the .45 Colt SAA, (4 3/4" barrel) we were able to reach (and safely) 1000 fps with our 250 grain Hollow Point and Winchester's excellent 296 pistol powder. At such velocity the big Long Colt slug carries 555 ft.-lbs. of muzzle energy, substantial performance from a cartridge so ancient. We definitely do not recommend a steady diet of such steamy loads in most single actions, for they do tend to loosen things up inside."

To date I have only fired Winchester 225 gr.Silvertips and cowboy loads. Recoil is mild to moderate with these loads with the Silvertips (920 fps/423 fpe) producing more recoil than the cowboy loads. I am going to stick with the Winchester 225 gr. Silvertips and not load any high pressure .45 Colt +P rounds for this Ultra Lite. When I need more gun, I'll pack a .44 Mag.

JJ
__________________
Nitro

Garand Collectors Assoc.
NRA Life Member
SASS #36461
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-19-2004, 04:18 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 35
JJ - I'm not sure there is an agreed-upon 'spec' for the .45 Colt +P, but I often see 30,000 cup thrown around alot on this and other forums. Obviously, this is only for the super-stout Rugers and others.

If I'm not mistaken, the Titanium Taurus (450T) should be able to handle a little more than your aluminum-alloy-framed model. But I still would never put that Cor-bon stuff through it. Yikes!

Ok - I guess I worded my question poorly. Let me try it again...

Don't think of it as a 'dual-purpose' gun. Think of it PRIMARILY as a gun that you carry every day but MIGHT take a shot at a deer-sized animal every once in a while with.

Let me try it this way: What is the smallest handgun/caliber combination that you would ethically take a shot at a deer with. No - scratch that, because I know that everyone will just automatically resort back to whatever their favorite caliber is. Hmmm...

How about this? What is the LARGEST caliber/cartridge combo that you would want to shoot for fun and carry CONCEALED (in a pocket sometimes) every day? Wheelguns only please.

And, I know that you're thinking it. So before you say it [again] I know, I know... two guns would be better than one in this case. I totally agree - but that's not my question.

Thanks again.

- Ron
__________________
Ron
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-19-2004, 02:49 PM
SFT SFT is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New Braunfels, Texas
Posts: 1,686
Consider two pistols. The Ruger SP101 with a 3 inch (I think this is correct) barrel in .357. It's a very concealable 5 shot that can be had with or without a hammer. Snag free and able to shoot .38 +P's for personal defense, or full power .357's if you don't mind the recoil. Or, a 5 shot .44 special, similar in size to a S&W model 66. Larger caliber bullet, good concealability, mild recoil, but also capable of shooting .44 special "+P" loads. If you don't reload, there are several factory offerings, plus there are premium ammo makers that offer hot loaded .44 spl. Avoid the Charter Arms Bulldog for heavy .44 spl. loads though. Whichever you chose, be sure to get a handy lever action in the same caliber, you know, just in case!
Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-19-2004, 03:15 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Duvall, Wa
Posts: 106
Quote:
What are the pressure specifications for a .45+P Colt cartridge anyway. I can find specs for .38+P and .38+P+ Special, .45 ACP +P, 9mm+P, .257 Roberts +P, etc, but no .45+P Colt.
There isn't any official SAAMI (or other) spec for the +P 45 Colt loads. For the "Ruger only" loads Hodgdon loads them as hot or hotter than anyone else right up to 30,000 CUP as cvicisso said.

A 3" GP100 might work for both the jobs you have. It is more "L" frame size than K, but can handle any 357 Mag load you might want to try shooting and is still small enough for CCW. They have fixed sights and are as snag free as any gun with an external hammer is going to get.
__________________
John

http://www.handloads.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-20-2004, 07:06 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 736
JohnK and others, these current SAAMI specs were recently posted at Leverguns.com:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm .
It states: .45 ACP = 21,000 PSI
...............45 ACP+P = 23,000 PSI
...............45 Colt = 14,000 PSI
...............45 Colt (Ruger) = 25,000 PSI

Joe
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-06-2007, 09:54 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 278
Load the 45 Colt with Penn 225 gr full wadcutters. They are hardcast and with the meplat being essentially .452" they are going to hit like a brick. The Penn Thunderhead is 270 gr and has a .443" meplat. Load either to 45 ACP velocities and you should have a good manstopper and the 270 gr should also make a good critterstopper.
http://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-07-2007, 04:18 AM
451Detonics's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 205
In 45 acp you might also consider a S&W 325 PD. Yes it is an N-frame gun but it is very light, takes full moon clips, has great sights, and is very concealable. Mine has even gone in the front pocket of loose fitting jeans on occasion.

In regards to "that Corbon stuff" don't worry...the DPX ammo shoots softer than most home defense loads from other manufacturers and pressures are well within allowable limits.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-07-2007, 05:48 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Tucson
Posts: 277
cvicisso,

You stated that you might have to take a defensive shot from inside your coat pocket, and so a semiauto handgun is not an option.

I think you have one shot from inside the coat pocket with a semiauto. The jam will happen after the bullet leaves the barrel. That said, you should be able to squeeze the trigger, pull the pistol from out of the coat pocket while moving to the side of your adversary as you clear the jam, and keep on shooting.

A cartridge that somewhat suits your criteria would be the 10mm loaded to full power for hunting and (optionally) loaded to lower power for SD. The platform that could somewhat suit your criteria would be a G29. No external safety, and you'd have to carry with one in the pipe. IMO, the Glock doesn't quite have the trigger pull of a double action revolver, but I believe it is safe nevertheless.

The G29 frame is wider than most of the other Glocks (built on the same frame as the G20, G21, and G30), but may still be slimmer than a 5 shot .38 revolver.

Weight 24.69 oz
Capacity 10+1
Barrel length 3.78 in
Width 1.27 in
Height 4.45 in
Length 6.30 in

My two cents.

Mark
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Colt Dragoon on the Plains (article) Gatofeo Muzzleloaders 3 10-26-2007 08:14 AM
Found! Original loads for C&B revolvers Gatofeo Muzzleloaders 4 09-26-2005 08:26 PM
Taurus Tracker 45 Colt WBill Handguns 10 03-21-2004 02:15 PM
Loads for 45 long colt taurus tracker rushtofer Handloading Procedures/Practices 14 01-16-2004 02:08 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:17 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2