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  #1  
Old 03-20-2008, 08:30 PM
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Hard Barrier Pentration Of A few Handgun Rounds


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I tested a few defensive hardgun rounds for hard barrier penetration today
The Plywood


The Weapons used in the test, right to left 4" Model-19, Springfiled 1911 with 10 round Chip McCormack magazine and a 4" Model-57 Smith in 41 Mag



The rounds tested were 185 grain DPX, Buffalo Bore 230 Gold Dot +P, Hornady 230 grain XTP +P, in 45 ACP
In 357 Mag the 145 grain Silver Tip and the 158 Gold Dot by Speer mwere tested
In the 41 Mag the 170 JHC load by Buffalo Bore. This load does 1550 FPS from a 4" barrel S&W Mountain Gun

The 230 grain XTP +P made it into the 3rd board, the DPX, the 230 B.B +P Gold Dot load in 45 ACP,and the 145 grain Silvertip in 357 Mag. made it into the 4th board and dented the 5th
The 170 grain JHC in 41 Mag made it into the 5th board and dented the 6th and the 158 grain Gold Dot in 357 Mag penetrated into the 6th board

Picture of front side of 4th board

158 grain Gold Dot in 6th board. Notice the dent in upper ride of plywood from the 41 Mag



Back side of 4th board
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  #2  
Old 03-20-2008, 08:35 PM
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Nice work.
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  #3  
Old 03-20-2008, 09:42 PM
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That was awsome. Shoot for group next time and see the variation between rounds also. Good visual. thanks.
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  #4  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:56 PM
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Interesting. Just curious, what are you trying to test exactly? Meaning, what scenario are you testing for? Penetration of defense loads in home walls? Expansion of hollowpoints? Number of hardwood doors you can shoot through and still cause damage? Or just what penetrates the most wood? If you're just testing for penetration, how about throwing some hard cast or FMJ bullets in the mix?

Also, were the plywood pieces stacked together or was there an air gap between each one? This will make a difference.

Not saying you can't or shouldn't shoot some plywood for fun, I'm just wondering what you were hoping to prove, disprove, or test for?
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  #5  
Old 03-22-2008, 10:54 AM
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Testing was done as a way to see how much hard barrier penetration thes defensive rounds would give. Judging from the test home walls would slow them down little. The wood was back to back as illistrated in the following picture. Hollow points do not open in wood and generaly give as much or more pentration as hardball in my experience..


Last edited by jwp475; 03-22-2008 at 11:03 AM.
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  #6  
Old 03-22-2008, 02:28 PM
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As fun as this sort of experiment is, I really scratch my head over whether there's any point to it, beyond just "gee, I wonder what'll hapen...?". Hard barrier penetration is important for military use, but virtually irrelevant for self defense. Optimize for penetration and you're crippling the primary intended use for the ammo -- soft target/close range. And, if you look for a single projectile to give optimum performance against both soft and hard targets -- well, it ain't been invented yet, sorta like "lightweight, easy-to-pack dehydrated water".
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Old 03-22-2008, 02:36 PM
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I beg to differ with you on this, wouldn't you like to know how many walls your round might penetrate, as their may be inocents behind them. Also I used hollow point ammo for this test, as I have allready posted the results from the water soaked paper with 4 layers of denium covering it.

Many times an advesary will take cover and not simply stand in the open to give one an un-obstructed shot..
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Old 03-22-2008, 04:23 PM
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i can see his point.. plus he probaly had fun finding out which expansion rd would penetrate
the best..these protection rds are something of an mystery.. we would do well,, to know what to expect from them..also lets face it ,,its fun..
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  #9  
Old 03-22-2008, 05:09 PM
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Why does there need to be a reason. Shooting stuff is fun. Seeing what happens when you shoot different stuff is just a little funner. Haven't you ever read the box o truth? If you haven't you should. http://www.theboxotruth.com/ It's fun too.
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  #10  
Old 03-22-2008, 05:51 PM
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+1 snew. Why is the board not a pile of toothpics? Seems lile you let it get off easy.
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  #11  
Old 03-22-2008, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwp475 View Post
I beg to differ with you on this, wouldn't you like to know how many walls your round might penetrate, as their may be inocents behind them. Also I used hollow point ammo for this test, as I have allready posted the results from the water soaked paper with 4 layers of denium covering it.

Many times an advesary will take cover and not simply stand in the open to give one an un-obstructed shot..
Well, all this test proves is that he's pretty safe if he's standing behind seven 3/4" plywood sheets stacked right against each other. And, yes, in a military context your adversary will often be behind cover, but I am willing to wager that this rarely is the case in pure self defense -- not unheard-of, but rare.

Besides, I don't know anyone with 3/4" plywood walls in their house, although I am sure someone has them -- although I'd really scratch my head at 6 or 7 layers of it. Generally, you're talking sheetrock, and the sheets are not stacked but spaced approx. 4" apart, with wiring, pipes, and framing spaced throughout.

All you're proving is that for any given caliber and velocity the lightest bullet will penetrate the least, hardly a revelation. If you really want to try to wrap your brain around something, consider that the best scientific testing conducted yet in simulated walls has shown that 45 and 55gr. JHP bullets fired from a .223 carbine penetrate far less than any typical pistol round.
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Old 03-22-2008, 06:51 PM
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Pisgah, I know what home walls are made of, would like to submit your walls for testing? Of course the hard wood that these plywood boards are made of will limit penetration as compared to sheet rock or paneling walls. The wood used was scrap from a cabinet making shop.
All it takes is one time for an advesary to be behind a hard barrier and you are involved in the incounter to make it a problem. Since you are willing to bet that does not happen that is fine with me...
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:43 PM
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Well, since your experiment pretty well shows that a handgun is useless against such a barrier, and you seem to feel it's something we should reasonably be prepared for, I guess we all need to start looking for something in the way of a concealable .50 BMG...
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by pisgah View Post
Well, since your experiment pretty well shows that a handgun is useless against such a barrier, and you seem to feel it's something we should reasonably be prepared for, I guess we all need to start looking for something in the way of a concealable .50 BMG...


Again your missed the point. A handgun with standard defensive ammo (Hollow points) is very penetrative on these barriers. As I have noted in an earlier post the Oak plywood is much more difficult to penetrate than a homes wall. I feel that thy offer more than enough penetration

Even on auto doors

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Old 03-22-2008, 09:07 PM
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I really don't see what your problem is with jwp's test. Knowing what your ammunition will and won't do is just standard operating procedure. As far as walls go, many older houses around here have exterior walls equivalent to seven 3/4" sheets of plywood or more, including the house I was raised in.

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Old 03-22-2008, 10:56 PM
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A lot of old farm houses have at least: a couple layers of Mud, lathe, fiberglass insulation, 1 (maybe 2 or more) layer(s) of 3/4" to 7/8" OSB/Plywood/Fiberboard, Tyvek (or equivalent) and siding. And sometimes some strange asphalt or asbestos layer in there as well. While it may not be valid for in-home, interior wall penetration/protection, it is definitely good for exterior wall containment testing.

The way I look at it is that my 1911 will have plenty of power to stop someone, but will not go through my walls, travel 50 yards to my neighbor's house, penetrate his walls and hurt his family. But my 357 mag might, and my 44 mag probably would too.

Plus it is fun.

When I get home, I have some rough-sawn 2x8s that I am going to shoot, along with some treated 8x8 scraps from my pole barn. Why? Because its fun to shoot stuff. Knowledge, whatever it may be, only makes you better. Good work . I can't wait to test my own. Definitely going to build some "Test walls" too. The Box-O-Truth doesn't have insulation in it, nor does it have any other obstructions normally found in/on walls.
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Old 03-23-2008, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Monteith View Post
I really don't see what your problem is with jwp's test. Knowing what your ammunition will and won't do is just standard operating procedure. As far as walls go, many older houses around here have exterior walls equivalent to seven 3/4" sheets of plywood or more, including the house I was raised in.

Bye
Jack
My house was originally constructed as a radio station. Exterior walls consist of a layer of brick on top of a 1" layer of foan insulation board on top of 8" concrete block filled with foam insulation, then 4" of fiberglass insulation and an interior wall of 5/8" sheetrock. Yep, over a foot thick. My point -- the plywoofd tells me nothing about how bullets will perforn in my wall ,only in multiple layers of plywood. Results in one medium cannot be accurately extrapolated to guage performance in any other medium. Especially when the experiment is performed as this one was.

There was no control. The very first shot gives a representation of what that bullet might be expected to do against that medium. After that, you're shooting at a different medium -- plywood that's been shot. You must assume that the medium has been altered, and its strength compromised, by that first shot and every subsequent one. Thus, you cannot draw any substantive comparative conclusions. In order to do so you would need to prepare separate targets as nearly identical as possible for each and every shot.

Last edited by pisgah; 03-23-2008 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 03-23-2008, 09:28 AM
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I am looking forward to your test that address all of your concerns.......
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Old 03-23-2008, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jwp475 View Post
I am looking forward to your test that address all of your concerns.......

You keep making my point for me. Thank you!

My point -- there is no experiment, even properly designed, that will address anything more than the narrowly-defined concern of that experiment. Yours doesn't even achieve a valid comparison of penetration in plywood by the rounds you've tested.
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Old 03-23-2008, 10:15 AM
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I dissagree with your assessment, and respectfull contend that one can make reasonable choices from such tests. If you don't take anything useful from the info that's fine by me..
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