I saw a thread in Google that got me thinking. Would hard cast be better for defense? I recently read an article about a police shootout where JHPs were used by police and NONE of the hangun bullets penetrated more than 2 inches in the firefight. I know for sure 9mms were used, but I think some larger caliber hanguns were also.

Another forum discussion was a lengthy one about penetrating hard cast round vs expanding bullets. With all the emphasis on rounds that penetrate, why not go to a hard cast, flat nose (SWC or wide meplat), bullet for home defense? My context is for .357 mag and possibly 9mm, but other calibers could be considered.

Questions:

--> Is over-penetration overrated as some suggest?

--> Would a wide meplat hard cast proivide a large enough wound channel to consider as a viable replacement for a JHP?

--> Wouldn't this overcome the clothing (or denim) obstacle that some worry about?

--> Could loading a bit lighter (but still enough to penetrate well, e.g. 1200 fps for a 185gr hard cast .357 magnum) help negate the problems of recoil, muzzle flash, and possible injury to others in the case of a pass-thru?

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"They got us pinned down. How many of 'em are there?"

A hollow point bullet plugged with clothing is going to behave much like a bullet without a hollow point.

When it comes down to it, the penetration problem results from the relatively low velocities of auto-loading handgun cartridges. No one complains about under-penetration of 357 Magnum, with or without hollow point ammunition. This is how the 10mm was arrived at as an ideal law enforcement cartridge, and in the end it was watered down to be practical. Selection of a cartridge for a carry sidearm is always a balance between power and practicality. I don't think a hardcast bullet is going to shift the balance appreciably.

I think you are asking yourself the "right questions" T-Bone. All that I can offer is the "conclusion" that I came to.

Home/self defence ammo is what is closest to my hand. I do not care if it is a rock or a stick of dynomite.

Hardcast/hollowpoint, factory/handload, I don't care so long as it's handy.

Cheezywan

I guess it depends on caliber and velocity vs weight . Myself I use a 44 mag with 300 gr hollow points at 1600 fps . All I can say is "Ouch" . The hard cast 330 gr. I use for hunting would be too much for home defense as they pass right through a bear at 50 yards . I'd try some penetration tests with smaller calibers at close range and I'm sure you could work up a good hard cast home defense round , just aim low if something important is on the other side . Hit 'em in the ankle and they will go down then take the head shot when they are on the floor .

My penetration testing:

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...topicseen.html

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"They got us pinned down. How many of 'em are there?"

If you want to read up and see a whole lot more tests on penetration, check out the Box 'O Truth. A couple of fellas have shot a whole lot of different bullets into a whole lot of different things a whole lot of ways and share it all in detail.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Do you have a 10-inch barrel??????

Those who deride flat-nosed hardcast bullets for zipping through game and not doing much damage have never hunted with them. I always necropsy my animals after killing them, and I can say is that they do a boatload of damage between holes....... I personally think they would work really well in a defense situation.

I do not understand the OP re. "2 inches in the firefight". I'm asking myself,"for this to happen,what kind of ammo was being used"? Surely NOT any (normal)9mm ammo that I have ever heard of.

I have shot several animals with my 9mm woods carry load(147gr Gold Dots) and they penetrate well. I would suspect even the 115's would penetrate much more than 2 inches. Especially if the HP was plugged with clothing.

Anyway(?)..........I have killed tons of game with hardcast. The following just to name a few:
Moose w/ 44mag,444 Marlin,45-70,454 Casull
Black bear w/ 444 Marlin,and .45-70
Maine sized deer w/ 444Marlin,45-70,44Mag
Coyotes w/ 45-70.44mag
Fla sized hogs(up to 250lbs+)w/ 44mag,45-70 and 454 Casull

I did the killin'-----I did the guttin'. With most(90%) of these hits,the bullet was NEVER recovered. Even moose on the shoulder with a Casull and a .45-70. The results are not allot of blood shot meat but a suffecient amount of damage for a quick kill. Massive bone fragmentation also,even on the largest bones. I suspect because of the above mentioned rds,all are of the "slower" variety.

Hardcast and home defense :::> they penetrate,keep this in mind. Where's your family,dog,neighbors,etc.? A hardcast will absolutely zipp through walls,furniture,appliances,etc. The BG's will have no place to hide.....BUT.....neither will your wife and kids.

With any reasonable SD/HD caliber,a well designed hardcast will completely penetrate a human. It will also do significant damage to kill or incapacitate.

Make sure to completely check the function of a hardcast outta a simi-auto before it's intended use. Reliability is very important in HD/SD.

I'd say that hardcast on human targets would work great. Given all the right conditions,it could be a great pick. -----pruhdlr

pruhdlr -- it's when cops have to shoot through barriers like car doors that show the 9mm hollow-points as being inadequate.

As a civilian you are not handcuffed by departmental rules in regards to the ammunition you can use for SD. I believe there is not a better round available for SD work than the excellent loads from CorBon in the DPX line. These use the Barnes Tripleshock X bullets which are monolithic copper hollow points. I have been involved in testing them extensively always using Vyse gelatin prepared using FBI protocols. All testing is done through four layers of denim at the minimum. The CorBon DPX penetrates and expands almost without fail. If you have questions about a specific caliber I can give figures but as we have tested hundreds of rounds chewing through several tons of gel it would take me hours to list them all here.

Another vote for cast bullets,from here in NewYork.
Some states have ,not only agressive lawyers to contend with,but overzealous DAs,as well.
With factory ammo,you can safely use the most efficient bullets available. But with custom ammunition,you may be called to account for using "lethal" bullets.Avoid this with plain jane lead bullets,which are really just as efficient.
Frank

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Frank

I live in Missouri where the Castle Doctrine reigns. New York lawyers worried about "lethal" bullets??? Isn't that the point? I don't want to shoot anyone, but if push comes to shove in a defense situation, I WANT lethal!

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"They got us pinned down. How many of 'em are there?"

CorBon is not custom ammunition, I have even seen it in some of the discount stores...it is factory ammunition. In most jurisdictions unless threat against you is of such a nature that it is necessary to take the life of your attacker then you are not justified to use a firearm at all. This being the case just about any factory ammunition is easily defensible in court. In the case of CorBon I have a huge amount of data that shows it does not over penetrate and performs as it was designed to. Hardcast is likely to perform like ball thus requiring multiple shots, this has been shown over and over in SD or LE shooting where as a good hollowpoint may require less round to be fired to end the aggression. Into this also plays the fact you should carry as large a caliber as you can shoot well. The key is obtaining a lawyer that can explain the differences in bullets and defend using a good SD round as well as knowing SD basics such as the Tueller Drill. Having expert witnesses is a plus as well.

I was suggesting hard cast with a wide flat nose, which can have a large wound channel like expanding, but with much greater penetration. It does NOT perform like ball!

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"They got us pinned down. How many of 'em are there?"

You beat me to it, T-Bone!! Hardcast flat-nosed bullets with big meplats most certainly do not behave like ball ammo. Not even close!

Ball tends to go through a soft target with a minimum of deformation, they tend to over-penetrate as well, and hard cast does both these thing also. What makes hardcast with a wide flat nose so great for hunting it the fact it will penetrate for a greater depth which help on quartering or raking shots. It also will bust up shoulders in large game, not a really useful trait in self-defense against humans when you should be shooting for center mass. A well made hollowpoint will expand to 35-50% over original diameter creating a more devastating wound channel, also creating a larger temporary wound channel which can shock the system further, a hardcast solid will not do that. I have tested both extensively and know what the wound channels look like. I know a handful personally and none would do so. I don't believe there is a single expert that teaches SD who would recommend a cast bullet over a well designed hollow point. They do recommend against handloads however.

I don't believe for large game their is a better bullet than a large flat nosed solid, they just don't work as well for SD purposes against human varmints.

Large wound channels from wide meplat bullets may not be a well known fact, but it is genuine. There was a terrific article about it in Guns & Ammo this last year.

From Garrett Cartridges:
Also:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech...ch_notes.htm/9

And further:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm

Not sure why this didn't show up in your testing, but there sure are a lot of big dead animals that prove to the contrary. The last linked article is great and was the impetus for my own testing using .357 wide meplat bullets.

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"They got us pinned down. How many of 'em are there?"

A very reasonable statement in my seat.
99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999% of my shooting with my carry firearm is critter control or target practice. I really don't care to buy special ammunition at a premium price for XXXhole control.

Is a gunfight in "self-defence" subject to the Geneva convention?

Cheezywan

First I don't carry a 45/70 for SD work but good luck to those who do. Second that is all animal data, not human shootings, third....nevermind...I give...all the experts in the world are wrong and all the testing done by myself and all the experts in the field are wrong...

Me? I will carry ammo I know will keep me and, more importantly, my family alive, CorBon DPX.

'nuff said...

Not trying to be insulting, but alluding to no name experts with no facts given is like saying 'I once had a neighbor who's cousin's brother-in-law knew a guy who shot someone once." Who are these experts and how did they become experts?

Jim Cirillo formerly of the NYPD Stake Out Squad I would consider an expert and his bullet of choice 148gr LWC. Meplat doesn't get much wider than full bullet diameter and he advocated sharp shoulder which to me translates to hard cast.

Hawking CorBon ammunition doesn't prove anything.