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357 sig????

25K views 22 replies 12 participants last post by  firebird 
#1 ·
Being I own a Walther P99 and have purchased a Bar-sto BBl for it in 357sig, I can say this is one stout round!!

With bullet weights from 125 to 148 grain, up to 1500fps and the same punch as a 357 magnum, I seem to think that this would be a great woods defense/trail gun?

Anyone else a fan of this stout little cartridge???





Here's an article by Chuck Hawks with alot of info:


Compared: The .357 Magnum and .357 SIG

By Chuck Hawks





"The .357 Magnum was the original magnum handgun cartridge. It was introduced by Smith & Wesson in 1935. It is one of the all-time best selling handgun cartridges, widely used for both handgun hunting and personal defense. It has also been adapted to rifles.

The .357 Magnum has become the standard of comparison among personal defense handgun cartridges, with the highest percentage of one shot stops of any handgun cartridge. Almost every revolver that can stand the pressure is chambered for the .357 Magnum. There are small frame, medium frame, and large frame .357 revolvers. It is also one of the most popular calibers in single shot pistols, and even some autoloading pistols have been adapted to the cartridge, making for an extensive choice of guns in the caliber.

For most of its life, the standard .357 Magnum factory load has driven a 158 grain cast or jacketed bullet of .357" diameter at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1550 fps from an 8 3/8" barrel (Remington figures). Because the .357 was loaded to full pressure, this velocity figure was pretty close, and was verified by independent chronograph tests (including mine). More recently, in this the age of the tort lawyer, the SAAMI maximum average pressure (MAP) of the .357 Magnum has been reduced to 35,000 psi. The factory loaded 158 grain bullet now has a catalog MV of approximately 1240 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 535 ft. lbs. as measured in a 4" vented barrel (revolver barrel).

Other bullet weights from 95 grains to 200 grains are offered, but today's hot factory load for the .357 is a 125 JHP bullet at a MV of about 1450 fps and ME of 583 ft. lbs. from a 4" vented barrel (again these are Remington figures). I have checked the velocity of this factory load from a 4" Python revolver on my chronograph and found it to be quite accurate.

The .357 SIG cartridge was introduced in 1994 by Federal and SIG Arms for the fine SIG semi-automatic service pistols (P226, P229, and P239). It is worth noting that while the nomenclature of the .357 SIG intentionally implies that it is a .357 caliber, this is not the case. It is actually a 9mm auto pistol cartridge and takes standard diameter 9mm (.355") bullets.

The .357 SIG is advertised as providing .357 Magnum ballistics in a semi-automatic pistol, although (as we shall see) that is not literally true. It is, however, a relatively powerful cartridge adaptable to any semi-automatic pistol chambered for the .40 S&W cartridge. The .357 SIG actually offers ballistics about midway between the .38 Super Automatic and the .357 Magnum. In addition to SIG, as this is written, Glock and H&K offer pistols in .357 SIG caliber.

The original Federal .357 SIG factory load claimed to drive a 125 grain jacketed bullet at a MV of 1350 fps with ME of 510 ft. lbs. from a 4" barrel (with a sealed breech, not vented). I have not been able to verify the accuracy of these figures, but I have read that they are reasonable close. This remains the standard and most practical load for the caliber, although 147 and 150 grain bullets are available. .357 SIG cartridges are factory loaded by several of the U.S. ammunition manufacturers, although the selection of offerings is considerably less than for the .357 Magnum.

The .357 Magnum is a rimmed case based on the .38 Special case lengthened by .135" to increase powder capacity. This also serves to eliminate the possibility of high pressure .357 cartridges being fired in low pressure .38 Special revolvers. On the other hand, all .38 Special cartridges may be used in any .357 revolver, further increasing the flexibility of the caliber.

The .357 SIG is based on a necked-down .40 S&W case with an 18 degree shoulder. This makes for a very stubby bottleneck case, but the .357 SIG headspaces on the case mouth, just like most straight case auto pistol cartridges, not the shoulder.

It should be obvious to any experienced shooter that there is no practical difference in frontal area between bullets of .355" and .357" diameter. .002" more or less in bullet diameter is just not enough to matter. Other factors, such as bullet design and impact velocity, are far more important.

If .357 Magnum and .357 SIG bullets of the same weight and identical design are fired from at the same velocity, the kinetic energy and penetration will be equal. However, when comparing the ballistics of the .357 Magnum and .357 SIG, things are not equal.

Loaded to the maximum permissible pressure the .357 Magnum will outperform the .357 SIG because its case has greater powder capacity. This is why, even with the disadvantage of being tested in a vented barrel, the standard 125 grain .357 Magnum factory load has a 100 fps advantage in MV and 70 ft. lbs. advantage in ME over the .357 SIG. If the .357 Magnum load were chronographed in a 6" barrel, the standard and most common barrel length for magnum revolvers, its advantage would be even greater.

Because of its higher velocity the .357 Magnum also shoots a little flatter than the .357 SIG. For example, comparing Federal factory loads using 125 grain JHP bullets in both calibers, the .357 Magnum bullet has a 100 yard mid-range trajectory of 2.8" and the .357 SIG has a 100 yard mid-range trajectory of 3.1".

Because of its superior ballistics and greater variety of loads, including .38 Special loads, a .357 Magnum handgun is a much more versatile choice for the recreational shooter or handgun hunter. It can properly be used for plinking, target shooting, small game hunting, and medium size big game hunting. A .357 Magnum revolver is also a good "insurance policy" when camping, fishing, or hiking afield. Also, many fine revolvers and single shot pistols designed for the hunter and recreational shooter are available in .357 Magnum caliber.

The .357 SIG, as a service auto pistol cartridge, lacks the accuracy for target shooting or small game hunting. It lacks the bullet weight and sectional density for big game hunting or serious protection against large predators afield. And it cannot be loaded down far enough to make it a comfortable plinking cartridge. In addition, there are no hunting or target type pistols chambered for the cartridge. The .357 SIG is not a good choice as a multi-purpose cartridge for the recreational shooter.

The shooter relying on factory loads will find a much greater variety and availability of loads for the .357 Magnum. Because it is among the best selling of all handgun cartridges, .357 Magnum factory loads are much more widely distributed than .357 SIG factory loads. For example, the 2003 edition of the Shooter's Bible lists 47 individual factory loads from 9 manufacturers for the .357 Magnum, compared to only 15 individual loads from 6 manufacturers for the .357 SIG.

For the reloader, the availability of bullets and brass is important. In this area the .357 Magnum also has a big advantage. Because of the Magnum's popularity, nearly all bullet makers offer a wide selection of .357" diameter bullets. These typically range for 95 grains to 200 grains. Brass is in plentiful supply from virtually all manufacturers. In addition, of course, .38 Special brass and components may be used. Because of its large, straight, rimmed case the .357 Magnum is an easy cartridge to reload. And because revolvers do not depend on the recoil momentum of the cartridge to operate, handloads can range from the lightest .38 Special target loads to full throttle magnum loads, a velocity range of approximately 600 fps to 1500 fps.

The .357 SIG offers nothing comparable to reloaders. In fact, it is a somewhat unusual pistol cartridge to reload. Brass is available, but not particularly plentiful. Care must be taken during the resizing operation due to its bottleneck case form. Bullets may not be roll crimped because the case headspaces on the case mouth instead of the shoulder or rim. .40 S&W brass should not be reformed into .357 SIG brass; the resulting cases are too short to maintain proper headspace. Bullet diameter is the same as other 9mm pistol cartridges, but not all 9mm bullets are suitable for use in the .357 SIG. In particular, the NATO style 9x19 FMJ bullets may not be used. Their taper is such that not enough bearing surface contacts the short neck of the .357 SIG case. That is why Speer makes special 125 and 147 grain bullets specifically for the .357 SIG. As with any semi-automatic pistol cartridge, reloads must not vary far from factory load velocities or the gun may jam. And autoloading pistols throw their brass all over the place, making recovery difficult and time consuming.

As alluded to earlier, the .357 Magnum's popularity also carries over into the availability of guns. Virtually every gun maker who builds a suitable handgun chambers it for the .357 Magnum cartridge. The selection of pistols in .357 SIG caliber is much smaller."
 
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#2 ·
M141A,

I can't testify on the .357 Sigs effects on game but I do know that it has been proven to be an excellent defensive round with 1 shot stop percentages being right up there with the old .357 mag. I think a positive not mentioned in Chuck's article is that the .357 SIG can carry 10 rounds in mid size guns and 13 in law enforcement mags. That would be a nice trail gun in my book unless you are in big bear country in which case I would want something bigger than either of these 2 guns. The recoil of .357 Sig in an automatic is less than a revolver and on paper, I think it could be used as a close range hunting weapon with good shot placement. The fact that the 1 shot stop percentages are just about the same as the .357 mag indicates to me that you would see similar results in the field with similar barrel length guns. The mid size Glocks and Sigs are sure more comfortable for me to carry around than a 4 " revolver and that is another plus. I wish it were easier to reload, but there are always tradeoffs.
 
#4 ·
details?

MikeG said:
I know a guy who killed some small pigs with a .357 Sig & the 125gr. Gold Dot bullet.

Hey Mike, you don't have any details on bullet performance, terminal effects, etc do you? I have a few friends packing .357 Sigs along on the deer lease this year if a nice close shot presents itself so I hope to have something to add to this discussion as the season progresses.
 
#5 ·
Not exactly, no. However I can speculate on a few things:

1. I know for sure he uses a Glock.

2. I'd bet anything they were loaded absolutely to the gills.

3. He didn't recover any bullets best I recall, and in fact, I think that once a single shot went through two small pigs!

Pigs were recovered with no problems, and the obvious conclusion is that the bullets expanded well enough to make a decent wound channel, and still held together and exited.

Frankly I'd rate the gun/cartridge right up there with the 125gr. .357 Mag loadings, at least in short-barreled guns, and wouldn't hestitate to either through a deer's lungs from a broadside presentation at short range. In fact if I get the chance, I plan on doing just that with my snubby .357 & 125gr. Cor-Bon ammo.
 
#6 ·
The biggest 'minus' I'm finding in all my readings is that the cartridge is designed for a "people bullet"; not as a hunting round.

The article I posted states that there's too much expansion rather than penetration. I'm sure at close ranges, such as with the lil' piggies...all bets are off! :D ...and that's where I was going with this. As a "trail" round, it's huntable and would change the minds of critters of the 2 or 4 legged varity. Lung shots would definitely work Mike!
 
#7 ·
The 10mm...the .41mag....both did what they set out to do, both are kind of ignored. The .357sig is a bit like that, did exactly what it was designed to do, but still doesn't get the buying public to flock to it.

Part of it may be that it bucks the current trend (not that being popular makes things better...but being popular assures survival) towards heavier bullets for everything. Is a trend that may have gone far enough, and the SIG will pick up on the back swing.
 
#9 ·
I like the round alot. I have a Glock 33 (subcompact) and chronographed 124 gr factory loads (don't remember which off hand) right near 1300 fps. That's not bad from a 3.75" barrel. When it comes to self defense, it basically gives you a 10 shot .357 mag in a very small, easy to carry gun.
 
#11 ·
great articles

Jubal said:
Howdy All
I recently started shooting (Sig 239) and reloading the 357 Sig. and thought this info might be helpfull.
http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar66.htm
http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar65.htm
Jubal
Hey Jubal, those were great articles and thanks for posting them. Let us know how your experiences go with this cartridge. I am interested in how people are lubing their cases, brand of lube, inside case mouth, etc. It was interesting to see that the shell holder had to be ground down to achieve minimum acceptable specs. I hope Santa is good to me this year and my delimma will be trying to decide between the 226 and the 229.
 
#12 ·
Hey Pistol Pete
There is alot of good info on the different Sig handguns on the Sigforum.com.
I am reloading 357 Sig with a Dillion 550 press and Dillion dies. I lube only the outside of the case with Midway's Minute Lube. Spray a very small amount of lube on the cases and let them rest for several minutes. I place the lubed case in the shell holder with my right hand and the projectile in the cartridge case mouth with my left hand. Grad a rag and operate press with right hand or use clean left hand. A lot of work for a handgun cartridge !
I use Accurate #7 powder, Speer Gold Dot bullets, and Winchester primers.
Joe also has more articles on the Realguns web site concerning headspacing.
Regards Jubal
 
#14 ·
Been shooting and reloading this gun for awhile now - 1500 - 2000 rds or so. Be cautious of bullet "creep" or setback when reloading, it happens. Also I have found that these bullets are alot cheaper when using a FN 9mm 124GRN chunk of lead with a .357 diameter, Yes the .357 SIG is basically a necked down .40 that will accept 9mm lead! It's cheaper this way, I've noticed about a 20% reloading savings by just using 9mm lead.

Just thought it would be nice to add to this post - it saved me, hopefully it can save you.

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/956242
 
#15 ·
For those of you who like the odd ball calibers and want to hunt with an autoloader there is a similar cartridge, the name of which escapes me at the moment, a 10mm necked down to .357. I think this one uses real .357 bullets. Ought to be hotter than a .357 and flatter shooting than a 10mm, probably easier to load as the neck looks longer than the sig.
 
#16 ·
crack-shot, thanks for the advice on those lead bullets for the .357 Sig. I usually use FMJ bullets and I didn't think that lead would work in this gun. Did you find any leading with this bullet? I was also wondering if you were downloading that or running it hot? I was looking for something cheaper than the full factory HP's that run over 10 bucks for a box on 100.
As a side note, the factory round using the Speer bullet has proven to be a good round. Our department did some testing with penetration and they did excellent in going through car bodies and windshields that previously were bouncing 9mm's off. The visual difference between the 9mm and the .357 sig hitting the gelatin blocks was dramatic. I know of 1 shooting with this round and was able to talk to individuals that witnessed it. Without going into gory details, It was a solid 1 shot stop and the individual went down instantly. Many of those there had been in similar sitiuations with 9mm's and they all went out and changed to the .357 sig. I know this isn't very scientific information but it is real world results that some may find interesting and informative.
 
#18 ·
pistolpete said:
crack-shot, thanks for the advice on those lead bullets for the .357 Sig. I usually use FMJ bullets and I didn't think that lead would work in this gun. Did you find any leading with this bullet? I was also wondering if you were downloading that or running it hot? I was looking for something cheaper than the full factory HP's that run over 10 bucks for a box on 100.
As a side note, the factory round using the Speer bullet has proven to be a good round. Our department did some testing with penetration and they did excellent in going through car bodies and windshields that previously were bouncing 9mm's off. The visual difference between the 9mm and the .357 sig hitting the gelatin blocks was dramatic. I know of 1 shooting with this round and was able to talk to individuals that witnessed it. Without going into gory details, It was a solid 1 shot stop and the individual went down instantly. Many of those there had been in similar sitiuations with 9mm's and they all went out and changed to the .357 sig. I know this isn't very scientific information but it is real world results that some may find interesting and informative.
I havent seen a whole lot of leading, but then again I tend to be a clean freak - I started with the lead ammo as an idea from a box of federal ammo i purchased at a gun show. I took them to the range, they shot well, and thats when i started using them. My SIG 239 seems to digest them well! As far as the load data - I use the LEE load manual for the most part - I've never had a problem with any of his load data - if I remember when I go home tonight I will check my load logs and give you exacts - I havent loaded these in a while and I want to give correct information - at least on what I use as a pet shot.
 
#19 ·
If anybody is interested, the Accurate Arms website has some good loads using lead bullets. The loads are running in the 1050-1300 fps range which is the only source I have found so far that shows some lowerpowered loads. Here is the link:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/35738Cal(9.2mm)/357%20SIG%20pages%20103%20and%20104.pdf
 
#20 ·
RCBS dies

I just got a new set of .357 SIG dies from RCBS and found that the lead bullets were shaving badly and the full metal jacket bullets were crumpling the cases. I found the expander plug was only .353 and this was probably the cause as my 9mm plug measured about .357. I will probably try to get a hold of RCBS after the holiday and see what the alternative measures are. For those of you that have loaded lead bullets for this cartridge, did you get an additional neck expander die or make do with the 2 dies that comes with the set. These bottleneck rounds are a little different and any tips you can give me would be appreciated. Pistolpete
 
#22 ·
A small 4 pt. whitetail met a gold dot from my glock 33 last fall and did not go 30 yards. I think this is one of the better hunting rounds in an auto pistol. But I still would choose a large revolver or single shot if the only gun I was carrying after whitetail or larger. I was not going to shot this buck with mt 06 but rembered I had the clock under my jacket.
 
#23 ·
Depends on what you are looking for in a hand gun. If you are sold on auto loaders and don't hand load then the Sig is probably OK for your purpose. If it is primarily a deer or hog hunting gun and being an auto loader isn't a priority and you do hand load, then .357, with a 5 or 6" barrel revolver with its larger powder load is going to have a big edge over the Sig for hunting purposes. It is what you want it for that makes the decision.
 
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