Shooters Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

FBI's 9mm justification

13K views 101 replies 49 participants last post by  m141a 
#1 ·
It's out there now, so we just as well talk about it. It roughly mirrors my thoughts and my long term conversion from a rabid .45 ACP fan to a confirmed 9mm Para fan.

Eventually, I reached a point where I was unable to deny the advantages of higher magazine capacity, reduced recoil and faster controlled pairs and double taps along with generally higher scores (once you remove the minor/major power factor issues), along with the reality that the current crop of 9mm hollow points offer very impressive terminal ballistics and give up little or nothing to calibers that start with a ".4".


FBI 9mm Justification
 
#2 ·
When I started carrying I decided on the .40 S&W. If I had to do it again, I'd go 9mm for the reasons you mention. Still might. Something I find troubling from that report though is this bullet point:

LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

It doesn't matter what caliber is used, those kinds of numbers don't work work for me. Hey, as a taxpayer, I'm more than happy to buy more rounds and range time.
 
#87 ·
Most city and county LEOs do not get practice ammo. They have to buy their own if they want to shoot. They get one box before their annual or semi-annual qualification, and that is it. My daughter can shoot better than most of the county deputies or police. And, it is a pity, but a lot of them don't hunt or shoot as a hobby. You, or I, who shoot at the range once or twice a week are hands down better shots, and know our firearms better than 90% of the local cops. That is too bad, because their life may depend on their hitting thier first shot.
TB
 
#11 · (Edited)
Well probably, but then if you really want a man stopper why piss about with a .45 ACP? Why not issue everyone with one of those IMI Desert Eagle things in .44 Mag?

Actually, I'll tell you why; because they're too big, too heavy, have too much recoil, are too slow to get back on target in the event that another shot is required and typically, don't allow for a good sized reserve of ammo. Like most successful things in life, the 9mm Para is a practical compromise. Not necessarily the best at any one thing but a sensible choice when one is confronted with a number of competing and often contradictory considerations.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Started my pistol shooting back in the early 70s with some warn out second hand 9mm Brownings but they still shot better than any of us were capable of at the time. I must admit I did like those old Brownings. We then went to 38 Model 10s, then to 357Mags but by then I had moved on. I am and admit to being a bit of a pedantic old f##t but my mantra was always practise bridge of the nose shots if available and any calibre will put the assailant down. Similarly a shot just above his family jewels will also put him on his knees because there is very little just there to prevent a bullet punching through to the lower spine and knocking legs into oblivion. All of this of course requires lots of practise under stress. Twenty push ups and in to a two second or one second exposure and repeat and of course the old argument, why waste two bullets in the same hole where you have already destroyed all nerve tissue etc. IF you can after all of the adrenalin producing exercise, then put two stopping shots on target, the calibre is irrelevant in my view. A 22RF on the bridge of the nose is going to stop all conversation for sure.
IF EVER I required a side arm for my protection then a modern version of those old Brownings in 9mm would suite me fine. Just the simple view of a pedantic old English guy.

I am not saying that all or any of the alternatives would not do an equally good job. It is down to what you can handle with confidence UNDER STRESS.
 
#6 · (Edited)
My first hadgun was a cz75 in 9mm. I love the cartridge, the cheaper price permitted me more practice. And I never felt like it wasn't enough gun. I still like 9mm a lot. But I carry .45 and .40 now, just because I don't find myself shooting all that much better with the 9 than I do my .40 or .45. Though I don't like the .40s&w cartridge all too much. My friends dad was a LEO when the departments did the big switch from 9mm to .40 here in NM, and they filled those LEO's heads full of cartridge supremisist ideas, that the .40 was designed specifically for law enforcement to be the most effective cartridge. He told me that .45 shoots too heavy of a bullet and has no range whatsoever, and the 9mm is going to take 9 shots while .40 would only take 1
Edit: the only person I know personaly who has had to use a firearm for defense was using a 9mm loaded with a 124gr +p jhp, he fired one shot into the assailants chest, a rather large assailant, and it killed him instantly. So I've always been more about shot placement
 
#9 ·
I'm sorry, but I like the big and slow option and I'll take it over a 9 anytime. As, not only a LEO, but an NRA police firearms instructor, I always carried a 45. I can tell you about recent involvement with people that are hopped up with drugs and they keep taking 9's until they bleed out. In the Pacific theater they had the same problem and the 45's fixed it.

Also, many LEO's can't shoot. I know I tried to get them to pass the qualification course, but those of us who can usually do pretty well. What's hard to do, is the technical, when under pressure. You can't miss fast enough!

Speaking of James Bond, yes he does well, as long as it isn't in the first part of the movie...

Jack
 
#10 ·
I was told way back in the 60s by Army sergeants that anyone hit anywhere w/ a 45 was going to get knocked down..

But on the other hand some other sergeants said "you might as well throw the 45 at em as to shoot em. I guess they couldnt shoot. I do believe that CCW guns of today are probably somewhat better quality than govt 45s of those days.
 
#12 ·
Although I have a number of handguns in a variety of calibers, I have always been a fan of the .45ACP in the 1911. Probably from my indoctrination to it during boot camp. While I still like the .45 a lot, as I age I have begun leaning more to the 9mm especially since I picked up a S&W M&P pistol. It fits me well and I shoot it more confidently now. The Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo feed well in everything I have and seem to exhibit very consistent results. With the improvements in ammo and the lower recoil, I'm learning to like the 9mm.
 
#15 ·
I think I remember these statistics correctly. I can't find the report right at the moment, but if someone needs to correct my memory, go right ahead.

About 10 years ago, I believe, the NYPD conducted a study that showed the most common range of engagement in a gunfight was 6 - 8 feet. At that distance, with an average of 8 shots fired by all participants, 3 hits were recorded. when the range opened to 5 yards, 1 hit was achieved, At 10 yards and beyond, less than one hit per hundred rounds fired was achieved. Contributing factors were adrenaline, lack of practice, and insufficient training. Most officers, according to the report, fired their weapons only at the annual qualification.

case in point: Amadu Diallo. NYPD fired more than 40 rounds at him, with no return fire, I might mention, because he was unarmed, from a range of about 15 feet and only achieved 19 hits. No one ever asked where the other 21+ bullets went.

Training, proper training and enough of it, trumps caliber. As Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch told our class, "You can't miss fast enough to make a difference!"
 
#16 · (Edited)
Don't know why, as it's the same as the weapon that I carry today. I guess if you can't hit anything with it, it does make a difference. I am at the top, as far as marksmanship goes, but some weapons just don't seem to agree with me.

I had a p38, that I don't think I could hit the walls of an outhouse if I was in it, yet my wife could roll an aluminum can with it. Of course she couldn't even shoot my S&W 439, it would never cycle for her. I don't think she could hold it firm enough to make it cycle.

I don't think any weapon would knock you down, or it would the shooter, as it's basic physics, but the impact does deliver well and I find them a pleasure to shoot. Saying that, I'd hate to get hit with a 50 BMG round and I shoot those from a shoulder fired weapon. Now that is big...

I don't remember bond ever having a .25 auto. I know he didn't in the books versions and I think I'd have noticed as I've been a fan ever since I was a kid. I used to reload my 380 auto, used the same bullet for it, as I did for my 38's and 9mm. Just lacking a little in velocity.

I would be a fan of the 45 no matter what, but that's what I was saying that I prefer to carry a 45. I don't see many 44 mag autoloader (although there a couple). I had a S&W 629 and a Ruger SSA 44 mag, both were great shooters but I wouldn't want to carry them, especially concealed. I didn't even think about it starting a discussion as it was a personal opinion. BTW the many of the special forces do carry 45's and the military is speaking of returning to the 45 for numerous reasons. So don't count them out. But I realize it's personal opinion... We can leave it at that. Unless...

Take care...

Jack
 
#34 · (Edited)
If not mistaken Bond used a 32ACP NOT 380ACP
**********************************************************************

Handgunner is correct. "THE" James Bond pistol was a Walther PPK in 7.65mm aka .32 ACP... not that it makes any REAL difference since we're talking about a fictional movie character here.



Strength & Honor...

Ron T.
 
#31 ·
It was a PPK that the Police Inspector riding with Princess Anne as protection was carrying when a 'nutter' tried to kill her. He fired the first shot I believe which missed , then the gun jammed. Never did like that weapon after that.
How many of you actually practise under stress ? Like run just 50yrds up to the range as fast as you can. Try running round the range car park wearing a gas mask for just three or four minutes, then see how well you shoot. The real world is not 'casual' when the s### hits the fan the adrenalin pumps and you need to be able to control that whatever calibre you are shooting. Putting the round on target under stress is far more important than calibre. Getting away from handguns a little. I believe that given an hour or so, I could get most people to shoot pretty good groups with a dedicated sniper rifle whilst lying on a comfy mat and a good rest. One of our training shoots was to start at 400, shoot five at an A4 size target prone in a ten second count, then open bolt, run 50yrds to the next obstacle, could be just a wooden post, bank, wall, load the rifle and if I remember correctly on the count of fifteen including the run, the target would appear for a count of two, three times one shot each time, then repeat 50yrd run, 50yrd run, until we reached the 50yrd marker where we had to fire five rounds standing no support. THAT is the sort of training to do if you want to be really prepared for those sudden life saving moments.
 
#21 ·
Carry and depend on what you can handle accurately, safely, and with ease. A 22LR hit in a vital area is way better than a miss with a 50BMG. That said, I like the 45 and can hit with it and can control it. If I was to pick one gun/ammo though it'd be a SAA in 45 Colt, a powerful round in a package that is a natural pointer for me. It does have drawbacks for concealed carry and time spent reloading however. End of the day, any reasonable hand gun is under powered compared to a rifle or shot gun and is primarily insurance, if I was expecting trouble I'd have brought my rifle.
 
#24 ·
My personal preference for in the home is a high capacity 9mm. Practice, practice and practice... will be more valuable no matter what caliber you prefer. Yes, i've got 45s that I really like, have shot them for years and would be comfortable with them at any time. My Dad was a LEO for 21 years and carried a Colt .38, never had to pull it, but that was probably because he always carried his military Ithaca 37 12ga as well. Big bores are convincing,
 
#25 ·
This is my take on Bullet Penetration, Macpherson. I derived

everything in his book in 160 pages. He used 115 grains and so did I.

For equal penetration, the 147 gr will give about 28% more 'wound cavity mass'.

The penetration will be different, however. I posted this before and had no

interest, so I just threw it out there again. Macpherson considers 40 grams of

‘effective wound cavity mass” to be a “reasonable goal” (regarding physiological

incapacitation), p.271 and 13 inches of penetration to be the ideal minimum, p. 274.
 
#26 ·
My two concealed carry guns are a S&W J frame in 38 special and a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm. The 38 is loaded with 125 gr jhp +P, 850 fps rounds and the 9mm is 125 gr jhp +P rounds at 950 fps. I don't feel out gunned with either of these guns. I shoot these two guns much better than I do any of my larger caliber handguns. I feel that I am way ahead by carrying a weapon I can shoot and handle well. Of all the handguns I have witnessed being shot during police qualification, the 9mm was by far the easiest for everyone to qualify with. I used to laugh watching troopers trying to qualify with full house 357 magnum rounds. Larger caliber guns take more practice to become proficient with and most people do not have the time and money to do that.
 
#27 ·
Seems a few years ago, someone tried to take out a guy with a rifle, shot him many times with 9mm, but he had a BP Vest on, so he soaked up the rounds and then killed the guy shooting at him.. If a mad bear is chasing me, albeit animal or human, I want something with smack power in it, first shot is usually the most accurate shot. So, you can have your .22's, 380's, 9mm's, and hope for luck along the way, 10mm is my all the time carry Kimber. As far as the throw the .45 at em, that's about right before the series 70's and 80's came out. Those were made for functioning, and very close range. Now we have government contracts with kimber, sig, taurus, springfield etc, all now are fairly top quality accurate shooters.
 
#32 ·
I go back to my 'bridge of the nose' 'pelvic' shot either of which one rarely sees covered by body armour. Yes I know some body armour has a lower flap at the front. I know we all say that the torso is the biggest target, but to be honest the critical area within is no bigger than a mans head if that.
One of my sergeants got a round at close quarters just under the collar bone and survived.
 
#28 · (Edited)
It only takes one

Reading all the 9mm stuff posted....

You guys do know you're shooting what amounts to a .38 Special, right?

Just because you can shoot up a a bunch of ammo in a high capacity mag
doesn't mean squat if you:

1. Don't hit a vital area
2. The round doesn't do enough damage even if well placed.

NOTHING does it like a .45ACP. You only need enough penetration to reach a person's vitals--
not go through a yard of gellatin. Any penetration past the heart is a waste of energy.

The larger diameter of the .45 is well known for causing more bleedouts than a .38.
Even a non-vital hit will create more damage when the energy is depleated withing the wound.


Yeah, I like the Browning HP too, but with the 1911 you won't need
all those double taps to put one on the ground.
 
#29 ·
I tend to believe actual testing and statistics, not hearsay. Testing often proves that what most people think is flat out wrong.
In this case, I think there is some question about the lethality of the first shot, vs. how easy it is to make a second shot. Is it better to have a caliber that is more likely to kill with one shot, but makes the second shot more dificult, or is it better to have a caliber that might not be quite so lethal, but makes it easier to get a second shot in?
The FBI testing seems to show that the difference in lethality between the different calibers isn't significant. I would be inclined to believe their testing vs. what some sarge told you, or some story you heard. From what I've seen, a .223 is at least as lethal as a .44 magnum, but most people don't think so. No amount of testing will convince them otherwise.
 
#30 ·
What, no mention of the 125gr .357 mag? I recall reading a while back, maybe a long time ago, that it was credited with the highest percentage of one shot stops. I find it a bit of a barker in my Model 66 S&W snubbie but very accurate with Crimson Trace grips. It's my favorite carry, but if I want to go "lite", I have a Bersa Thunder .380 also with Crimson Trace grips. Sure helps with ageing eyesight.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top