Shooters Forum banner

BFR 45/70 or BFR 500 S&W?

52K views 42 replies 19 participants last post by  swampdoc 
#1 ·
I have been considering getting a 500 S&W revolver, probably the Magnum Research BFR rather than the Smith, or their 45/70 revolver in a 7.5” or 6” if I can find one, and using Buffalo Bore ammo in it. Since the frames for their 450 Marlin and 45/70 are exactly the same I assume there would be no pressure problems, but I would appreciate different opinions on that.

I found a BFR in 500 S&W at a local dealer that has a six inch barrel, rather than their 7.5 and 10 inch models. The dealer here tells me it was a “special run” with one of their distributors. The shorter barrel on the BFR S&W makes it just about the same overall length and as “packable” as my Ruger 454.

I notice that the BFR 500 S&W has the long cylinder, which seems to set up a pretty long bullet jump. What is the point in the long cylinder?

If I opt for the 45/70 BFR – assuming Buffalo Bore ammo presents no pressure problems - does anyone know what the difference in velocity for the heavier bullets would be compared to the S&W 500 caliber in say, the 6 or 7.5 inch barrel lengths? Specifically, the BB 45/70 loading with a 430 grain bullet compared to their 500 S&W loading of a 440 grain bullet?

All comments are much appreciated.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
I have a BFR in 500MAG and I love the gun. I had the S&W500 but sold it because I liked the BFR better. I think the 45-70 BFR is deigned to handle high pressure loads. The only difference in the 450 and 45-70 is how the cylinder is chambered. They used the long cylinder for the 500MAG because the short cylinder was just that, too short for the OAL of the 500MAG cartridge. I shot both the S&W500 and the BFR in 500MAG side by side and found both gun very accurate. I chose the BFR over the S&W500 due to how well it balanced and handled, also just the looks in my opinion are more appealing in the BFR. I had sent my BFR to Mag-na-port to have the barrel cut down to 5 1/4 inches and also have the 4 port porting done. Also had them reinstall the front sight and invert the muzzle crown. The gun is still very accurate and has less felt recoil. I also installed the Hogue wooden grips that Magnum Research sell for the BFR. They are a lot better than the grips sold with the gun in my opinion. I do plan later on to get the 45-70 in a BFR also, the guns are a great. Please let us know what you get and how you like it. :D
 
#3 ·
Redhawk1: Thanks for the reply and the comments. They are very helpful. Please forgive my late response, I have been swamped with work.

I am still struggling to make up my mind. I have decided though that I do not want the Smith and as you prefer the BFR. If I had the money, I would buy both the 500 and the 45/70 but it can only be one of them. I feel as you do about the balance and feel of the BFRs compared to the Smith - no contest for me, the BFR is far more balanced and aesthetically more pleasing IMO.

If I get the 45/70 I would like to have the barrel cut back to six inches but I am not sure how that would affect performance given that the 45/70 uses considerably more powder than the 500. Have you chronographed your 500 BFR since you had the barrel shortened? Has velocity dropped off much or did you have an opportunity to test it before shipping to Mag-na-port? You mentioned that accuracy is still good. Any idea of what typical group size is at 25, or 50 or 100 yards?
 
#4 ·
AHA! Talk with the Zeppy..

I have both a S&W 500 and a BFR in .450 Marlin (same thing as the 45/70)

If your going to go hunting choose the BFR, hands down. If you want to shoot long range (100+ yards), choose the BFR, hands down. If you want to carry it as a backup for a rifle, choose the S&W 500.
 
#5 ·
Double D said:
Redhawk1: Thanks for the reply and the comments. They are very helpful. Please forgive my late response, I have been swamped with work.

I am still struggling to make up my mind. I have decided though that I do not want the Smith and as you prefer the BFR. If I had the money, I would buy both the 500 and the 45/70 but it can only be one of them. I feel as you do about the balance and feel of the BFRs compared to the Smith - no contest for me, the BFR is far more balanced and aesthetically more pleasing IMO.

If I get the 45/70 I would like to have the barrel cut back to six inches but I am not sure how that would affect performance given that the 45/70 uses considerably more powder than the 500. Have you chronographed your 500 BFR since you had the barrel shortened? Has velocity dropped off much or did you have an opportunity to test it before shipping to Mag-na-port? You mentioned that accuracy is still good. Any idea of what typical group size is at 25, or 50 or 100 yards?
I did not chronograph it before I had it cut down. So I do not know the differnce. At 25 and 50 yards I get under a 2 inch group. I have not moved out to 75 or 100 yards as of yet.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Thanks for the advice from Zeppelin and Redhawk1. It was taking me forever - maybe longer - to make up my mind.

I have decided to go with the BFR 45/70 with 7.5 inch barrel.

Zeppelin, have you done any reloading for your 450 Marlin? I would be very interested in knowing what kind of velocity you get out of handloads compared to the factory loadings from Hornady. Also, what kind of velocity do you get from the factory loads?

Also, I am looking for a good cross draw holster. No luck. Any suggestions?
 
#7 ·
Yep
Lots of fun reloads.

My best load in the BFR for accuracy is 405g Larado cast lead, Winchester LR primer, COL of 2.56 and 51g of H322. Of course I relaoded my MS Office and lost the last Chrony results I had but I can say the shots were flat out to 200+ yards. Really fun to shoot.

I have a badolier I purchased from Magnum Research.
 
#8 ·
DoubleD:
You may find that the 444, 450 and 45-70 loads in a revolver are more of a novelty than practicality. You can’t take advantage of their powder capacity in a revolver-length barrel. I know that in a rifle, the 454 will out-perform the factory 45-70 loads, but the high-pressure 45-70 loads will out-perform the 454. I don’t know how much pressure the BFRs will take. You may be happier with a revolver cartridge, like the 454, 475, or 500.

Darrel
 
#9 ·
Tio said:
DoubleD:
You may find that the 444, 450 and 45-70 loads in a revolver are more of a novelty than practicality. You can’t take advantage of their powder capacity in a revolver-length barrel. I know that in a rifle, the 454 will out-perform the factory 45-70 loads, but the high-pressure 45-70 loads will out-perform the 454. I don’t know how much pressure the BFRs will take. You may be happier with a revolver cartridge, like the 454, 475, or 500.

Darrel
Your novelty comment is totally wrong. That comment just pi$$ me off. These guns work extremely well with the 444, 45-70 and 450 Marlin rounds. They are being used for hunting all the time. You will never get a 454 Causll to out perform a 45-70 round. Your gun would blow up before you could touch the performance of any of the three rounds. The working pressure of all three would still be way under the pressure of the working pressure of the gun.
 
#10 ·
I have the .500 Mag in both the X-Frame and Magnum Research offering and prefer the latter. Not only does the BFR balance better, but it out shoots my S&W across a wide range of bullet weights and types. I also have to agree on the issue of .45-70 BFRs versus .454 Casulls.......specifically, a .45-70 BFR can duplicate 55,000 CUP Casull loads at 30,000 - 35,000 CUP (much easier on the gun and the shooter). When you open the BFR up to 40,000 - 45,000 CUP however, .454 performance is easily surpassed (I've shot 405 grain slugs out of my .450 Marlin BFR at 1,740 fps and stayed at or below 45,000).

Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com
 
#11 · (Edited by Moderator)
Redhawk1 said:
Your novelty comment is totally wrong. That comment just pi$$ me off. These guns work extremely well with the 444, 45-70 and 450 Marlin rounds. They are being used for hunting all the time. You will never get a 454 Causll to out perform a 45-70 round. Your gun would blow up before you could touch the performance of any of the three rounds. The working pressure of all three would still be way under the pressure of the working pressure of the gun.
Settle down! no one cares if it xxxxxx you off or not, just keep it civil! and your wrong, there are some .454 loads that will out perform the lower level .45-70 loads. yes the guns do work well, but you have to use diffent powders, correct? if you use a slow burning powder made to take advantage of the rifle length barrel your going to have unburned poweder at higher Capacities.

Just because you have in opinion does not mean your opinion is right or maybe its right for you, but its not right for everyone.
 
#13 ·
:eek: The BFR in 450 marlin smokes the 454. I shoot all of them and the 454 cant keep up with a BFR in .450 or 45/70. It out performs my S&W500. BFR's are extremly well made, simple and accurate. :rolleyes:

I think the difference here is those who have and those who have not. :p
 
#14 ·
I'm curious as to [which] faster burning powder might be more appropriate for the shorter (7.5") barrel on my BFR 45/70 in order to maximize velocity and accuracy with 300, 350 and 400 grain bullets? H4198 seems to work well in my rifle, but now I am not sure if that powder is well suited to the BFR. I know Zepplin has had good luck with H322 in his BFR Marlin 450 but wil the same powder be as effective with the BFR 45/70? All comments are most welcome and appreciated.
 
#16 ·
44SandW said:
Settle down! no one cares if it xxxxxx you off or not, just keep it civil! and your wrong, there are some .454 loads that will out perform the lower level .45-70 loads. yes the guns do work well, but you have to use diffent powders, correct? if you use a slow burning powder made to take advantage of the rifle length barrel your going to have unburned poweder at higher Capacities.

Just because you have in opinion does not mean your opinion is right or maybe its right for you, but its not right for everyone.
Of course a light loaded 45-70 can be out performed by the 454 Casull. BUT I am talking about the 454 Hottest load will never come close to a mild or hot loaded 45-70. And the pressures in the 45-70 won't come close to the 454 pressures to achieve that. Also it is not my opinion but fact! And for your info I CARE!!!
 
#18 ·
My BFR 45-70 shoots a 317, 330 and a 385 gr boolit more accurately with SR 4759 powder. I use a LP mag primer and it has done 7/16" at 50 yd's and many groups below 1" at 100 yd's. It is easily the most accurate revolver I ever had. I have clanged steel consistantly to 500 meters. I have to aim at a tree branch with the red dot though, the drop at 500 meters is around 26 feet. I have found no need for the real heavy boolits, the thing busts deer just fine with what I use.
My BFR .475 is almost as accurate, from 5/8" to 1" at 50 yd's.
My 45-70 is 10" and the .475 is 7-1/2". I have no idea what a shorter barrel will do because I don't like them for hunting. A large case in a short barrel is hard to find a powder for. You really can't use all the capacity but what you get has lower pressure.
I have shot through trees 18" in diameter with the beasts. Someday I am going tree hunting to find the one that will stop a boolit with the nose sticking out the other side.
If any of you have a short 45-70, please try 4759 and post so I know how it burns. It is very clean and even in the 10".
I tried 5744 and after five shots I could load another with the unburned powder. Gun was filthy too. 4227 showed lousy accuracy. 4198 gave me pressure excursions and velocities from 1535 to 1800 in one cylinder full. It did work better with a jacketed bullet. 3031 was very accurate but super slow with a lot of unburned powder.
I have worked the range from Unique to Varget. 4759 is the best.
Varget surprised me and it shot well and fairly clean. I would not use it in a short barrel.
 
#19 ·
My BFR 45-70 shoots a 317, 330 and a 385 gr boolit more accurately with SR 4759 powder. I use a LP mag primer and it has done 7/16" at 50 yd's and many groups below 1" at 100 yd's. It is easily the most accurate revolver I ever had. I have clanged steel consistantly to 500 meters. I have to aim at a tree branch with the red dot though, the drop at 500 meters is around 26 feet. I have found no need for the real heavy boolits, the thing busts deer just fine with what I use.
My BFR .475 is almost as accurate, from 5/8" to 1" at 50 yd's.
My 45-70 is 10" and the .475 is 7-1/2". I have no idea what a shorter barrel will do because I don't like them for hunting. A large case in a short barrel is hard to find a powder for. You really can't use all the capacity but what you get has lower pressure.
I have shot through trees 18" in diameter with the beasts. Someday I am going tree hunting to find the one that will stop a boolit with the nose sticking out the other side.
If any of you have a short 45-70, please try 4759 and post so I know how it burns. It is very clean and even in the 10".
I tried 5744 and after five shots I could load another with the unburned powder. Gun was filthy too. 4227 showed lousy accuracy. 4198 gave me pressure excursions and velocities from 1535 to 1800 in one cylinder full. It did work better with a jacketed bullet. 3031 was very accurate but super slow with a lot of unburned powder.
I have worked the range from Unique to Varget. 4759 is the best.
Varget surprised me and it shot well and fairly clean. I would not use it in a short barrel.

Man you found this from back in 2004, you must look hard for them...lol
I reread all the posts and I am impressed in how much I knew even back then...lol.:D

I have been shooting the SR 4759 powder and primers you posted above with 405 gr. bullets in my 45-70. The accuracy is out of this world. I shot 1 inch groups the other day at 50 yards, one ragged hole in the center of the target. I was going to take my BFR 500 Mag or my 500 Mag Encore on my Maine black bear hunt this August, but I think I am going to take my BFR 45-70 instead. ;)
 
#24 ·
Louhikaarme, I don't know how you say the BFR gives greater velocities than
Encore or S&W X-frame. I am a little perplexed by your statement.
If I take 3 different 500 mags, with equal barrel length and use the exact rounds, the velocities will be very close.
I am not taking any thing away from the BFR 500 Mag, I own one, and also a S&W 500 mag and a Encore 500 Mag. Or is there something I am missing here?

Thank
Alex
 
#25 · (Edited)
I was wondering the same thing. Must be a new scientific experiment where a revolver built for Marlin lever gun pressures can be out performed by a revolver built for 300 RUM pressures with the same cartridge.


Information straight from Magnum Research website.

What loads will the BFR .45/70 handle?
Lever action rifle loads, the #2 loads.


RECOIL OF FACTORY REVOLVERS AND LOADS
Formula: Add velocity to bullet weight and multiply that number by the velocity. Then divide by the weight of the firearm multiplied by 80.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=440 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>BFR .450 Marlin, 10-Inch
</TD><TD vAlign=top>4.5 lbs.
</TD><TD vAlign=top>350-gr. Bullet
</TD><TD vAlign=top>1814 FPS
</TD><TD vAlign=top>109.04 Recoil Factor
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>BFR .45/70, 7.5-Inch
</TD><TD vAlign=top>4.4 lbs.
</TD><TD vAlign=top>300-gr. Bullet
</TD><TD vAlign=top>1472 FPS
</TD><TD vAlign=top>74.1 Recoil Factor
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>BFR .480, 7.5-Inch
</TD><TD vAlign=top>3.75 lbs.
</TD><TD vAlign=top>325-gr. Bullet
</TD><TD vAlign=top>1409 FPS
</TD><TD vAlign=top>81.44 Recoil Factor
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Redhawk .480, 7.5-Inch
</TD><TD vAlign=top>3.3 lbs.
</TD><TD vAlign=top>325-gr. Bullet
</TD><TD vAlign=top>1409 FPS
</TD><TD vAlign=top>92.55 Recoil Factor
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Redhawk .454, 7.5-Inch
</TD><TD vAlign=top>3.3 lbs.
</TD><TD vAlign=top>300-gr. Bullet
</TD><TD vAlign=top>1600 FPS
</TD><TD vAlign=top>115.15 Recoil Factor
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Freedom Arms .454, 7.5-Inch
</TD><TD vAlign=top>3.25 lbs.
</TD><TD vAlign=top>300-gr. Bullet
</TD><TD vAlign=top>1600 FPS
</TD><TD vAlign=top>116.92 Recoil Factor
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Super Blackhawk .44, 8-Inch
</TD><TD vAlign=top>2.9 lbs.
</TD><TD vAlign=top>240-gr. Bullet
</TD><TD vAlign=top>1400 FPS
</TD><TD vAlign=top>98.96 Recoil Factor
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Notice the velocities with the 454 Casull 300 grain load as opposed to the 45-70 300 grain load. Looks like the 454 is faster to me. Both revolvers using the same barrel length.



BFR VELOCITY WITH SELECTED AMMO
(All tested with PACT Chronograph)

.45/70, 7.5-Inch Barrel

  1. 300 grain Federal Sierra Classic, average 1472 FPS and muzzle energy 1444 FT/LBS
  2. 300 grain Winchester Super X, average 1272 FPS and muzzle energy 1078 FL/LBS
  3. 405 grain PMC, average 980 FPS and muzzle energy 864 FT/LBS
.45/70, 10-Inch Barrel

  1. 300 grain Federal Sierra Classic, average 1507 FPS and muzzle energy 1513 FT/LBS
  2. 300 grain Winchester Super X, average 1405 FPS and muzzle energy 1315 FT/LBS
  3. 405 grain PMC, average 1056 FPS and muzzle energy 1003 FT/LBS
.444 Marlin, 10-Inch Barrel

  1. 240 grain Remington Soft Point, average 1831 FPS and muzzle energy 1787 FT/LBS
.450 Marlin, 10-Inch Barrel

  1. 350 grain Hornady, average 1814 FPS and muzzle energy 2558 FT/LBS
.480 Ruger, 7.5-Inch Barrel

  1. 325 grain Hornady XTP, average 1409 FPS and muzzle energy 1433 FT/LBS
.475 Linebaugh, 7.5-Inch Barrel

  1. 400 grain Hornady, average 1424 FPS and muzzle energy 1802 FT/LBS
.500 S&W, 7.5-Inch Barrel

  1. 275 grain Barnes X CorBon, average 1770 FPS and muzzle energy 1914 FT/LBS
  2. 400 grain Hawk SP CorBon, average 1679 FPS and muzzle energy 2504 FT/LBS
  3. 440 grain Hard Cast CorBon, average 1671 FPS and muzzle energy 2729 FT/LBS
.500 S&W, 10-Inch Barrel

  1. 275 grain Barnes X CorBon, average 1856 FPS and muzzle energy 2104 FT/LBS
  2. 400 grain Hawk SP CorBon, average 1752 FPS and muzzle energy 2727 FT/LBS
  3. 440 grain Hard Cast CorBon, average 1718 FPS and muzzle energy 2884 FT/LBS
 
#26 ·
The 45-70 loads MR lists for the 45-70 are factory loads that are safe in all actions including the trapdoor. Since no gun factory will come out and say to use handloads because of the lawyer crap, that is what they are stuck with listing for velocities.
Handloads far exceed these listings. So don't take them to mean the gun is weak, it is the same gun as the .450 Marlin. You can buy a .450 cylinder for the 45-70.
 
#28 ·
All the loads listed on the Magnum Research site, dealing with the BFR are factory loadings, which are trapdoor loads. The upper end Marlin loads actually fall in the lower end loads of the Ruger #1. There is an over lap in all load data. So what you see listed is not what the gun is rated for. There is a big increase in the Marlin loads over the trapdoor loads.

I can reload my BFR in 45-70 to equal the Marlin 450 loads and still be in the recommended max load.

As for the 454 Casull and the 45-70. I can load my 45-70 to surpass the 454 Casull and still be within the Marlin load data. They are listing factory loads here, there are no real Marlin factory loads out there, unless you order Garrets or Carbon's and they are more in the bottom ranger of the Ruger #1 loads.
 
#29 ·
Well I still haven't seen any chronograph data to prove what your saying. I have done the 45-70 handgun thing many years ago. In a 15" barreled Contender the 45-70 operates at the Marlin pressures. So lets take a 385 grain bullet in the 45-70 at 1539 FPS and then take a 395 grain bullet in a 9 3/8 inch barreled 454 1331 FPS. You gain the extra FPS from the 45-70 from the 6 inches of longer barrel and a sealed chamber at that. Now put that same load for the 45-70 in the shorter barrel of a revolver with an open cylinder/barrel gap and see what you get. It will not out perform the cartridge with the higher operating pressures and 10 grain heavier bullet.
 
#30 ·
You loose 26 fps per inch of barrel, minus 6 inch multiply that by 26 and you get 156 fps loss. That still put's the 45-70 bullet going faster than your 454 Casull.

Oh and I have chronograph some of my Marlin loads in my 10 inch BFR and 1580 fps is what I got. And that was with a 405 gr. bullet.

Look at the 450 Marlin data, the 45-70 can do the same fps, and that my friend beats the pants off the 454 Casull.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top