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  #1  
Old 01-28-2004, 05:03 PM
Jer Jer is offline
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BFR 45-70 vs. BFR 454 Casull


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Hello all,

Was hoping you guys could give me a hand. I'm contemplating a BFR in either 45-70 or 454 casull or maybe 450 marlin. What would the pros and cons of each be? I do reload so I wouldn't be limited to factory loads. Thanks in advance for you input!

Jer
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  #2  
Old 01-28-2004, 05:35 PM
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I can understand how you might have trouble deciding between the 454 and 45-70, but a 450Marlin? From what I've shot out of my 454 and out of 45-70 TC Encore barrels theres no way I'd ever touch off a 450Marlin! I almost bought the BFR 45-70 but I was talked out of it, and I'm still kicking myself. The 45-70 can be loaded from supersoft to superstout. If you want to be different get the 45-70 it is turely an awesome sight in the BFR (drool). I got a 454 but my heart still flutters everytime I see the 45-70 at the gunshop.

This is just my opinion about the 450Marlin, don't let me talk you out of it. I wish I hadn't gotten talked out of the 45-70BFR.
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  #3  
Old 01-28-2004, 05:42 PM
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The .45-70 and the .454 are pretty close in performance in handguns, and if both have the same length barrel, they are pretty much in a dead heat. My .45-70, a TC 15" Contender, pushes a 300 gr. X bullet at 1890 fps and my 10" FA .454 pushes a 310 gr. LBT LFNGC at about 1650 fps, and a 355 gr. LBT LFNGC at 1700 fps. The .45-70 may be slightly more powerful-depending on how much velocity you lose with the shorter barrel-and will do so at lower pressures. However, since you use more powder in the .45-70 (53 gr.) to do what the .454 (32 gr.) does with less powder, the .45-70 will have more recoil. The .454 and the .45-70 both have a very large range of bullet selections but there is no doubt, the .454 will be an easier gun to carry. The longer cylinder of the .45-70 adds a lot of length to the gun and a bit more weight, but you will be glad of the extra weight when you shoot. There is also no doubt the .45-70 is a much more impressive round to make your friends ooohh and awwww, but in all actuality, if both are fitted with the same length barrel, you will give up little if any to the .45-70 with the .454.
Anything you can do with the .450 Marlin you can do with the .45-70. They are almost identical in performance when loaded to the same pressure level. However, cases for the .45-70 as well as loaded ammo are a bit cheaper than the .450 Marlin.
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  #4  
Old 01-28-2004, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bore
...since you use more powder in the .45-70 (53 gr.) to do what the .454 (32 gr.) does with less powder, the .45-70 will have more recoil.
Big Bore - I'm a new guy, so I really don't know the details like you guys do, but here's what Magnum Research says on their website about recoil of the .45-70 BFR vs. the .454 BFR:

"The 45/70 will produce the same velocity as the 454 Casull with 2/3 less pressure, and a lot less noise and muzzle flash. This is because the 45/70 case is longer so it allows for different types of gunpowder to be used and the case has more room for the burning and expanding gases to expand. The end result is less pressure, less wear and tear on the gun, less noise and less recoil."

What you said about more powder = more recoil makes sense, but the blurb quoted above seems ok too.
Who's right?
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Old 01-28-2004, 06:31 PM
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I forgot, there's more on the Magnum Research BFR site. This stuff is all quoted from their website (link below):

BFR .450 Marlin, 10-Inch 4.5 Lbs. 350-Grain Bullet 1814 FPS 109.04 Recoil Factor
BFR .45/70, 7.5-Inch 4.4 Lbs. 300-Grain Bullet 1472 FPS 74.1 Recoil Factor
BFR .480, 7.5-Inch 3.75 Lbs. 325-Grain Bullet 1409 FPS 81.44 Recoil Factor
Redhawk .480, 7.5-Inch 3.3 Lbs. 325-Grain Bullet 1409 FPS 92.55 Recoil Factor
Redhawk .454, 7.5-Inch 3.3 Lbs. 300-Grain Bullet 1600 FPS 115.15 Recoil Factor
Freedom Arms .454, 7.5-Inch 3.25 Lbs. 300-Grain Bullet 1600 FPS 116.92 Recoil Factor
Super Blackhawk .44, 8-Inch 2.9 Lbs. 240-Grain Bullet 1400 FPS 98.96 Recoil Factor


BFR .45/70 recoils less than all of the above guns including the lowly .44 Magnum with a 4 5/8-inch barrel. The advantages of the .45/70 over the .454 Casull are that the .45/70 is an extremely potent hunting cartridge that is loaded at EXTREMELY low pressures. The Casull is loaded at over 50,000 PSI and the .45/70 is loaded under 25,000 PSI. The .45/70 can be hand-loaded to exceed .454 Casull velocity and still be under 30,000 PSI! There is the big advantage. Much less recoil and half the working pressure means the guns will shoot better and last longer. Ammo is also a lot less expensive and more readily available. THE LONG .45/70 CARTRIDGE DOES NOT MEAN MORE RECOIL IT MEANS MUCH LESS PRESSURE BECAUSE THE POWDER HAS MORE ROOM TO EXPAND, GIVING EQUAL PERFORMANCE WITH LESS PRESSURE.[B]

Here's the link:

http://www.magnumresearch.com/bfr_fact.asp
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  #6  
Old 01-29-2004, 02:48 AM
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cvicisso, you got it right. I would go with the 45-70. If you think the gun is to long, have it cut down. I have a BFR in 500MAG and I cut the barrel down to 5 1/4 inches and had it mag-na-ported. It is not longer than a Super Redhawk with a 7 1/2 inch barrel. I personally like the 45-70 and working in a lot less pressures than the 454 Casull. Also you can shoot a lot heaver bullets out of the 45-70 than the 454 Casull. I have shot both, and in my opinion the 454 Casull have more recoil and muzzle blast than the 45-70.
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  #7  
Old 01-29-2004, 05:34 AM
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This story has no practical advise to anybody, but everytime I see one of those BFR's I can't help but to remember those guns that the Clowns at the Circus used to run around with that when the trigger was pulled a big red flag with "POW" or "BLAM" written on it would pop out the end. (Ahhh! childhood memories.)


444fitch
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  #8  
Old 01-29-2004, 09:42 AM
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I guess that may be well true, but I know my .45-70 Contender kicks more than my FA .454 (some felt recoil difference can be from the way the guns handle the recoil. The FA revolver-as will the BFR-rolls in the grip and rears up while the Contender slams straight back so you get the full affect). Recoil calculations take into account weight of the gun, weight of the bullet, weight of the powder charge, and velocity (note, pressure of the round has nothing to do with recoil). What you did not notice from BFR's web page is they are quoting velocities for very low powered .45-70 loads, such as loads for the Trapdoor Springfield, or most loads you buy OTC for the .45-70. If you load up the .45-70 to where it cooks, such as my load of a 300 gr. bullet at 1790 fps for a 300 gr. Hornady or 1890 fps for the 300 gr. X bullet, the .45-70 takes on a whole new personality. If you stick with the mild factory loads or velocities they quote, yes, it will kick less, but if you make the .45-70 perform like it should, it will equal those figures listed for the .450 Marlin. I do not know what they mean by "recoil factor" but plugging in figures that they list for the .450 Marlin (300 gr. bullet to keep things more equal), .454, .480, and my loads for the .45-70, the following results are seen:
44 mag-2.9 #, 300 gr., 18 gr., 1280 fps=24 ft-lbs recoil.

480 R-3.75#, 325 gr., 27.0 gr., 1518 fps=32.5 ft-lb recoil.

454-3.3#, 300 gr., 31.0 gr., 1750 fps=43 ft-lb recoil

450M-4.5#, 300 gr., 56.0 gr., 1900 fps=49 ft-lbs recoil

45-70-4.4#, 300 gr., 53 gr, 1900 fps= 48 ft-lbs recoil.

When reading their stats, you just have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. All the loads they listed are for full power factory loads EXCEPT for the .45-70. The loads they listed for it are really weak loads and yes, they will most certainly give you very mildly recoiling loads. My Contender with start loads is like shooting a pop-gun, but when you, as they say, throttle up, the beast comes to life.

So, as you can see, the .45-70 uses 20 gr. more powder to achieve only 150 fps more, if you actually get that (my measurements are in a 15" bbl), and has 5 more ft-lbs of recoil energy. That may not sound like a lot, but when you get into that level of recoil in a handgun, it can feel like a lot more than it is. Don't get me wrong, I love the .45-70, but I am just trying to portray it honestly. To look at their figures, they show the .45-70 as being consideralby less powerful than the .454, and that is just not true unless you really neuter the .45-70.
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Last edited by Big Bore; 01-29-2004 at 09:56 AM.
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  #9  
Old 01-29-2004, 10:12 AM
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Big Bore - thanks! Your answer was clear and had sufficient detail and explanation that even a new guy like me could understand it (and that says alot )!

Too often it seems, the gun-makers (and car-makers, and beer-makers, etc...) use and abuse statistics to support whatever it is that they're trying to peddle... while conveniently forgeting to explain it properly.

I wish there were more guys like you - who take the time to explain what they're talking about.

Thanks again.
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Old 01-29-2004, 10:25 AM
Jer Jer is offline
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Thanks for all the info so far guys I really appreciate it. Judging from what you have said so far It seems like there is no clear cut winner. My big questions are as follows:

As I understand it the 45-70 has a larger case and allows the use of slower powders and therefore less pressure with similar velocieties. Is this indeed true, because it seemed to me It would matter more how long the barrel was instead of how bige the case capacity was?

Which cartridge will allow for the most versatility? Is the bullet selection most important or the powder options or oporating pressures? (My guess is the 45-70 will win the versatility argument, but I'm not sure)

Finally, wouldn't the lower pressures of the 45-70 cause less wear and tear on the revolver? I'm aware that either one can be a handful for the shooter, I'm concerned about the high operating pressure of the .454 it seems like a lot more to ask a gun to go through compared to the pressure of a 45-70.

So, as you can see I'm so far leaning toward the 45-70. Please let me know what you guys think. Am I on the right track or are there a bunch of holes in my theories?


Thanks again,

Jer
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  #11  
Old 01-29-2004, 12:18 PM
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cvicisso : Thank you for the kind works. You make me blush!

Jer; Yes, the lower pressures of the .45-70 do cause less wear and tear on the pistol, but when you load up the .45-70 to performance levels, (remember, the .450 Marlin is just a hot loaded .45-70 in a slightly different case) then one has as much wear and tear as the other. While the .454 operates at 50K plus, even hot loaded .45-70 loads operate well below that, say in the .45K area, so yes, in theory the .45-70 will have less wear and tear. However, unless you really abuse the gun, I doubt that you would ever see any undue wear and tear in your lifetime. The BFR revolvers are real mooses of a gun, built more than strong enough to handle the punishment of any of the mentioned rounds. The main point to firearm longevity is to keep it clean, and keep it lubed. On firearms like the .454 it is imperitive to keep the gun clean, then lub the cylinder axel and the front and rear contact points on the cylinder with the frame. You don't need much lube, but enough to act like a micro-thin barrier between metal to metal contact during recoil. I use a thick grease like MiliTec-1 for lubing the front and rear contact points and MiliTec-1 oil for the axel. Of course, you don't want to use too much oil that it gets on the primers and MIGHT contaminate them. Unlikely, but anything is possible. Honestly, either caliber is going to do anything the other will. If we were comparing a single shot .45-70 to a revolver .454, I would say the .45-70 is more versitle as you can shoot bullets from 250 to 500 and spitzers too. However, in the revolver the .45-70 is limited to what bullets are going to fit without being too long for the cylinder AND not taking up too much room in the case. That is one of the problems the .45-70 has in Marlins with heavy bullets because OAL must be kept to 2.550" or less, and a 500 gr. bullet takes up a LOT of room when held to that OAL. So, in the BFR you will likely be limited to bullets of 405 gr. or less and spitzers bullets like the Barnes Original and X bullets are very likely not doable, but I am not 100% certain about that. Both the .454 and the .45-70 have roughly the same range of bullets you can shoot in it, weight wise, and shoot them pretty much to the same velocity. Down side, the .45-70 uses about 20 gr. more powder to do so and has a bit more recoil, the .454 operates at higher pressures. Of course, you can always down load either round. Another point, bullets for the .45-70 are going to be rifle bullets, constructed heavier and are not going to expand at as low a velocity as handgun bullets will, but here we have to be honest again. When shooting a bullet of .452 or .458 diameter, if you choose a bullet with a big, flat meplat, like a hard cast lead LBT LWNGC or LFNGC, you don't need expansion. It is going to blow a hole clean through any deer from darned near any angle. The .454 has the option in most .454 revolvers (Ruger and Taurrus say it OK to do, FA says NO, don't know about BFR) to shoot .45 Colt loads in them. With the .45-70, you must shoot that. Of course, in the BFR, you have the option of geting another cylinder in .450 Marlin, why you would want to I do not know since you can load the .45-70 just as hot as the Marlin round, but you can if you want. Another point, you can find .45-70 ammo darned near anywhere. It may not be hot loaded ammo like you want, but any gun shop worth its salt will carry some .45-70 if you should need it. Same for .45 Colt ammo, and any more, I really don't think there any gun shop worth a hoot would not have .454 ammo either, so that point is a toss-up also.
From a purely practical point of view, the .454 will do anything the .45-70 will do in a handgun and do it with less powder. However, with the .45-70 you have the option of getting a rifle in the same caliber and able to shoot the same ammo. There are not that many .454 rifles out yet, and from what I understand, you do not gain much in the rifle over the pistol, maybe 200 fps. In the rifle, like a Ruger No. 1 or a Marlin 1895, you can really make the .45-70 sing, 2000 fps with 400 gr. bullets is not difficult at all. If I were making the choice, based on what I have said, you might think I would pick the .454 because in all honesty, it makes more since. But I wouldn't. I love the .45-70 and would go for it. I have five already, so what is another. By the way, I know where there is a BFR .45-70 for less than $600. It is used, but is absolutlely in like new condition for $579.95. They also have new ones for $649.95. These prices are firm and you likely will not find better prices anywhere. If interested, contact Perry at Kiesler's Police Supply, Jeffersonville, IN. 812-288-5740, ext. 4. They have one used revolver and two or three new ones that are on close out.
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Last edited by Big Bore; 01-30-2004 at 07:19 AM.
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2004, 02:11 PM
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I went with the 454 two years ago and have never been sorry. The 454 beats the 45-70 (in a handgun) in just about every measure:

-0- Larger selection of revolver makers (3 vs 1)
-1- You MUST handload to get the best performance out of the 45-70. There are a number of excellent sources for 454 factory ammunition if you choose not to reload.
-2- With equal barrel lengths, the 454 revelover will always be lighter and more compact.
-3- With loads of equal performance, the 454 will always use less powder, giving it the advantage over the 45-70 in terms of recoil and cost.
-4- I have seen lots of 454's at 200m silhoutte matches, but have never seen or even heard of a 45-70.
-5- Some states won't let you use a 45-70 handgun to hunt because it's considered to be a "rifle cartrige".

I could go on and on but you get the idea. Don't worry about high pressures, the guns made for the 454 are built to take it.
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Old 01-31-2004, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer
Hello all,

Was hoping you guys could give me a hand. I'm contemplating a BFR in either 45-70 or 454 casull or maybe 450 marlin. What would the pros and cons of each be? I do reload so I wouldn't be limited to factory loads. Thanks in advance for you input!

Jer

If you get either the 45-70 or the 450 marlin, you can get a cylinder to convert the gun between the two. I saw it on their website just yesterday.

Walter30-06
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Old 02-02-2004, 10:37 AM
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Thanks again guys,

I'm really leaning toward the 45-70 that way I can get a marlin 1895GS to go with it. I told my wife I can a get a revolver and a rifle to shoot the same ammo and she said that sounded reasonable . The only problem is now I see marlin is offering thier 1895 in .475 Linebaugh/.480 Ruger. Oh well, I guess it just means adding more items to the already extensive wish list. Once again thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts and ideas. I really enjoy the opportunity to hear what others think on a subject because I am pretty new to all this, and it seems all too often things are not really as they seem.

Jer
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Old 02-02-2004, 12:49 PM
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Jer;
That is exactly why I have been whining for about three years now trying to get Marlin to bring out the 1895 in .50 Alaskan. I need a rifle to go along with my hunting handgun in case I ever hunt out of state! For once, I would have a reasonable sounding reason for getting another firearm. Not that the "boss" is buying my "stories" any more anyway. But it sounds good, doesn't it?
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:09 PM
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Hello all, new member here. I want to piggyback on Jer's question. From what Big Bore and cvicisso are saying, OTC .45/70 is a weaker load than a .454 or handloaded .45/70. I want a BFR in 45/70 also, but only for the range or fun and to scare away undesireables from my home, not hunting or to make a super handload. For the range or fun, those weaker OTC loads would have less recoil? What would you compare it to? Thank you very much.

Cvicisso: Best bet with beer is to get away from the big 3... Try some of those crafts or imports...
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:46 PM
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The 500 S&W with Full House Factory loads does not come anywhere close to hurting my shooting arm as much as a 400 grain hardcast bullet in loads such as Buffalo Bore loads, or as much as my 45/70 rifle loads which sometimes sneak into my handgun. But if I was to purchase another one it would be in 460 S&W because I could shoot the 454 and the 45 Colt in it too.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:14 AM
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I have the BFR in 45-70 with a 10" barrel. It will out shoot my 45-70 rifles to 500 meters all day and at a measly 500 yards my best group was 2-1/2".
I will never part with the gun for any reason because of accuracy, many 1" and 1/2" groups at 100 yards.
I do not push the gun and mostly use a 320 gr boolit that I made a mold for.
Powder choice is critical with a short barrel and I found SR 4759 best. My most accurate with the above boolit is 31 gr of 4759 with a Fed 155 LP mag primer for 1631 fps. I have gone to 420 gr boolits and it shoots all super.
Don't think you can fill the case with slow powder and get it all to burn.
Fast powders like 2400 and Unique were a very poor showing.
Recoil is very pleasant and really is less then a .44 with proper loads. It is a joy to shoot. I can give all the best loads for all the boolit weights I have shot if interested.
It is a BIG gun for sure.
I do not like the .454 at all in any gun.
If you want a smaller BFR, get the .475 or .500 JRH. Both have supreme accuracy. Do NOT cut down a 45-70 barrel or powder problems will drive you nuts.
I put 5 shots through the top of this can at 100 yards, had to walk down and stand it up after every shot. The other holes are from a friends .45 ACP rifle.
Then a line of boolits I shoot from my 45-70 with 50 and 100 yard groups. One group is 10 shots.
Attached Thumbnails
BFR 45-70 vs. BFR 454 Casull-bfrcan.jpg   BFR 45-70 vs. BFR 454 Casull-th_various45-70boolits.jpg  

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Old 04-27-2013, 09:57 AM
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I have seen lots of 454's at 200m silhoutte matches, but have never seen or even heard of a 45-70.
The gun does not meet weight, too heavy.
Let's talk about the big BFR's a little. The .475 has more wrist twist and torque from a rest then the .500 JRH yet I have shot many 5 shot groups at 50 yards 5/8" and under with the .475. I kept 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yards, first shot was a sighter. Shot from Creedmore.
The JRH has made a one hole group at 50 yards.
I hunt mostly and use a sling from the butt to hang at my hand when walking. It keeps the gun safe if I snooze in a tree stand. BIG guns but so much better then a rifle. I use Ultra Dots and shoulder holsters.
Then look at twist rates of the BFR's, they are correct. Bores and throats have been perfect on all I have measured. The 45-70 is .4592" throat and .458" groove (.459" boolit.), the .475 is .4765" throat and .475 groove, (.476" boolit.) the JRH uses a .501" boolit, I did not even measure the gun. All shot cast from shot one and I shoot several years without cleaning the bores.
Clean the cylinder pin and hole, lube with STP, put a tad on the ratchet. Make sure some is on the front bushing. Really, you do not have to clean bores a lot.
Plain old STP is the best, it cushions cylinder recoil. It is perfect on a cap and ball too.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:00 PM
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Not to throw another kink in this, but what about the .460 XVR? You can shoot 460, 454, and 45colt rounds in it as well. 45/70 out of a revolver seems to me a little bit of a waste. You are dealing with lower pressures, true, but also incomplete powder burn. 460 will outperform the 45/70, 454. and do it with moderate recoil. Pressure is way up there though. Equal with some magnum rifle calibers. I have a scoped Smith X frame and with the light Hornady rounds its really pleasant to shoot other than the concussive blast it gives out for bystanders. Ammo is cheaper than most 45/70 rounds as well.
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