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  #1  
Old 11-26-2007, 01:54 PM
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belted magnum collet sizing die


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Anyone have any experience with these? They're sold by www.larrywillis.com I have a Forster co-ax (and a RCBS rockchucker) and don't know if it would work on a co-ax anyway. Wondering if same effect can be obtained with a redding body die? Here's what Mr Willis cliams about them...

Belted magnum cartridges have been around for over 50 years, and most shooters that reload them are familiar with the case expansion problems that occur "just above" the belt. This usually happens after just 2 or 3 firings - wasting perfectly good cases. Many shooters have discovered this problem when they find their handloads begin to stick in their chamber, or when they no longer chamber at all.

In order to resize a fired case, your resizing die needs to firmly contact the case, and then forcibly squeeze downward almost .100" beyond that point. This is required just to reduce .001" from the case diameter. The belt on a belted magnum case prevents any conventional resizing die from traveling far enough down the case. Then as the case is withdrawn, the brass also "springs back" slightly.

Our unique Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die solves this problem and has several other great features. The top of this die is a case width gauge that shows when a little "extra" case resizing is required. This resizing die is used to eliminate the case bulge at the expansion ring, after using your full length (or) neck sizing die. Our collet die insures that your belted magnum ammo will always chamber properly and your cases are now able to last for up to 20 firings, even when using hot loads. Our resizing die uses a collet that fits over the cartridge case, until it bottoms against the belt. The case is then pressed into the sizing die. The collet allows your case to go farther into the die where it only reduces the area "just above" the belt.
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2007, 04:11 PM
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Iowaloha neighbor to the north. Nice to meet ya.

I don't own or reload for any belted cartridges at this time. If I did, I would treat them as I do the non-belted ones. I would ignore the belt and let them headspace from the shoulder after the first firing.
I don't know of Larry Willis or his dies either! I do like the concept of them. I can't speak of quality.

My "limited experience" is; the less you mess with a case (after good prep), the better it will shoot(lasts longer too)!

Remember that a little guy in Iowa told you that.

Cheezywan
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2007, 09:24 PM
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I don't know about these except that their really expensive. I've been shooting belted magnums since about 1965 and have never had a problem with them with standard reloading dies. I use both RCBS and Lee dies and they seem to size them just fine and they cycle thru the rifle with no problems.

Looks like something just to sell, and sell at a good price. I don't see a problem sizing cases be they a belted magnum case or a rimmed case or a standard non belted case with existing sizing dies that are on the market now.

I'm shooting and reloading for the 7mm Rem mag, 7mm STW, 300 Win mag and the 8mm Rem mag and some of these have 15 firings on the original cases without any problems.

My old hunting partner had a 7mm Rem case separate upon firing, but I don't know how many reloads he had put thru this case.

I do set up my sizing dies so the belted mag cases headspace on the shoulder rather than on the belt. This also makes for better accuracy as well as case life.
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2007, 08:47 AM
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thanks guys - here's what Redding Tech Services wrote to me this morning on the die in question...

"There's a reason that die is out of production, it's not necessary. It is not desirable to return the fired case completely back to its unfired dimensions. It shortens case life and may adversely affect accuracy. Our body and full length sizing dies reduce the base dimension of fired cases approximately .003" smaller than the SAAMI minimum chamber spec. This ensures the sized cases will fit in any factory spec chamber."
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  #5  
Old 12-01-2007, 09:52 AM
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Amen to Redding's comments. The false premise in the collet die's advertisement is that business of a sizing die having to overshoot by a tenth of an inch to reduce a case by 0.001". That presumes a radius in the mouth of the die of a tenth of an inch, as you may find on some dies for non-belted, rimless cases. That generous radius is just there for extra easy alignment and entry into the die mouth. It is the part of the die that will surround the solid part of the casehead in sizing a non-belted rimless case. That part doesn't need resizing. A die made for belted magnums won't be so constructed above the belt, so it won't need to overshoot past the belt to resize immediately above it. That whole discussion is complete nonsense.
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  #6  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:33 AM
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It's one of the very few products I've ever seen panned in a gun magazine.... that ought to tell you a lot!!!
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2008, 12:50 PM
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faucettb ........

You're right about always headspacing handloads on the shoulder - not on the belt.

Cheezywan ........

You're opinion is perfectly understandable (after you admitted limited experience with reloading belted calibers.)

Prattusa ........

Redding isn't exactly an un-biased opinion about our products. They're obviously a competitor, and you may not be accustomed to their N.Y. attitude. 90% of all the dies I own are Redding, and I recommend their products very strongly on my website. Good stuff . . . . too bad they're not a very friendly crowd.

My cost is $20,000. for each production run, could you afford it? I have backorders for 120 dies already (not sure how many of those poeople still have jobs.) I went to place an order yesterday with MidwayUSA and guess what? I was looking for 5 items - not one was in stock. What does that mean? The current economy is VERY big reason why I don't run out and make more dies.

I'm semi-retired and single handedly competing with large corporations. When I get these dies in stock they sell very quickly. When one of the large die manufacturers offered to buy my patent I turned them down. When one of the leading die manufacturers tried to make our dies, they failed miserably.

unclenick ........

The top of our Collet Die is also a case width gauge that shows you which cases have expanded more than the others. Why would you NOT want to resize them like those cases that don't fit? If you own a set of calipers, you can clearly measure the area on belted cases that bulges. For every shooter that hasen't experienced the case bulge on belted cases, there are 1,000 who have. I take their phone calls and emails every day.


MikeG .........

What's does panned mean?? Our dies were sold by MidwayUSA (and our dies got their 5 star rating). Cabela's sold our dies for 2 years. Lock Stock & Barrel and R.W. Hart sold them too. Why did they stop selling them? $1,000,000 product liability insurance required for selling ANY reloading products! LAWYERS BEHIND EVERY BLADE OF GRASS IN THE U.S. That's why I now sell direct.

__________________________________

If anyone has more experience than the first 2 testimonials on my website please speak up . . . . I'll gladly take your advice. Until then, please consider the personal investment and hard work that some of the smaller companies in this industry go through to provide shooting related products. Why would you want to discourage them? There are a lot of fantastic products that will never see the light of day because they're just not profitable to manufacture. I've sold over 2,500 Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Dies after RCBS said it would cost too much for the R&D to design a die that can remove the bulge on belted magnum cases. Check out our website, and you'll see over 100 pages of tech tips on reloading. That represents serious sacrifice and hard work - for free. I support shooters!

Check it out WWW.LARRYWILLIS.COM

Good Shooting,
Innovative

{Moderator's note: We do not allow self-promotion on this board, but I will leave this up since it is in response to negative comments about your product, which you should be allowed to make, IMHO.}

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  #8  
Old 12-14-2008, 02:25 PM
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My son bought one, as all of his brothers and I have belted magnums. It IS worth the cost, and squeezes the case down so it will fit any rifle and it DOES remove that "bulge" just above the belt. I've tried it on cases that had difficulty chambering after regular full length sizing, and they chambered like factory new cases.. I did all of my 7mm Rem mag cases with it and haven't a complaint....

Oh, I use Redding dies on my 7mm Rem Mag
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2008, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
If anyone has more experience than the first 2 testimonials on my website please speak up . . . . I'll gladly take your advice.
I wouldn't want to discourage any small business in this country, but after nearly 50 years successfully reloading belted mag cases I simply don't see the need for your product. It just seems something created to sell rather than to address a real need. I've never had a problem with any belted cased cartridge as far as chambering and loading.

I've used a variety of different dies for belted mags with never a problem.

Nothing wrong with free enterprise, but creating a product for a non existent need doesn't make any sense to me and I have enough loading experience, gunsmith experience and shooting experience to have some idea of what's going on.
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2008, 06:20 PM
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faucettb ........

It is possible that you have not run into this particular problem, but let me share some notes from shooters that have. I take calls and emails from shooters every day that HAVE run into this problem. Consider these ......

-------------------------------

I always use the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die when handloading the 7mm Remington Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum, 300 H&H, 8mm Remington Magnum and .350 Remington Magnum. This die solves the case bulge problem that is inherent with handloading belted magnum calibers. It's a great feature for this one die to work on all of the popular belted magnum calibers. This extra reloading step avoids getting to the range (or experiencing horrors in the field!) and discovering that your handloads wonít chamber.
This unique resizing die extends case life and ensures proper chambering. Many of us (me included) want our brass to last for as many firings as possible. I also like the exceptionally clear and concise directions that came with the die.

- Craig Boddington
(Writer for Guns & Ammo Magazine) Paso Robles, California


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I tried your belted magnum collet resizing die on several different belted calibers. I also tested it with a 7mm Rem. Magnum using the same (2) cases. After resizing them in an ordinary full length resizing die, they measured (.513"-.514") just above the belt. After using your collet resizing die, the case diameter measured approx. .510" above the belt. I shot and resized them 5 times each. There was certainly no question that your collet die reduces the case forward of the belt. It is a well made product in attractive packaging.



- David Tubb
(11 time National High Power Champion) Texas


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My Son and I have many belted magnums in our collection and we have been handloading for 4 generations. Your new belted magnum collet resizing die is the slickest gadget that we have in our tool box. We use a Redding full length resizing die first, then we use your collet resizing die to remove the bulge just above the belt. If the collet sticks on the case, I just invert the case, stand it on the shell holder and push it back into the body of the die "gently" and the collet pops right off.

- Richard Hummer
Phillipsburg, NJ


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I have a new Ruger #1 rifle in 300 Win. Mag. that has outstanding accuracy. I planned to neck size the cases, but I found that after 2 or 3 firings the cases wouldn't rechamber, even after using a well known full length resizing die. I just had to discard the cases. I assumed that the chamber might be out of round, but I didn't want to return the rifle to Ruger and risk loosing such great accuracy. Then I read about your new collet resizing die and realized what my problem actually was. Now I use my 300 Win. brass many, many times and they all drop in the chamber like new. My 7mm Rem Mag has improved also.

- Neal Davis
(Advertising Exec) Stanbury Park, Utah


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I had troubles with a .416 Rem Mag and a chamber that was a on the large side. I could only use my cases one or two times, and then they were too big above the belt to fit back in the chamber. Now I use this die to put my brass back into specification after every firing and it works great.

- C. Sardeson
Blanchardville, WI


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Your Belted magnum Collet Resizing Die is the best thing since magnum ammunition. I just assumed from various articles that the brass would only last a few times and you had to toss them. Not so anymore. I can shoot my rifle as much as my shoulder lets me, not my wallet. While doing some web surfing, I came across many hits that mentioned your die, and I immediately ordered one. It is built like a Swiss watch and sizes the brass exactly every time.

- Win Burrington
Rochester Hills, MI


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Your Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die works great on my .257 Weatherby brass. This die makes fired brass chamber better than new factory brass. Super die.

- David Lund
Danvers, MN


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With over 40 years of reloading under my belt, I have to say that this is the slickest piece of reloading equipment I have! The Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die was made by a reloader shooter for reloaders! Great piece of work!

- Steve Klante
Wausau, WI


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I run my .375 H&H brass through this die, after neck sizing. They now chamber smooth as silk. Very easy to use, and beautifully machined.

- David Schnell
Walnut creek, CA


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Your Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die works great. If you come up with any more innovative products, be sure to let me know.

- Herbert J. Stumpf
(Machinist) Sacramento, California


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A friend of mine recommended your belted magnum collet resizing die, so I got one for my .358 Alaskan (this brass is not cheap). There is no question that this die does the job. No more case bulge problems like I had in the past. Your die is easy to setup and use and it will save me money in the long run. Thanks for an EXCELLENT product.

- Bill Yendrzeski
Essex Jct., Vermont


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I've been reloading for 25 years and I am very pleased with your belted magnum collet resizing die. Your die has saved me a lot of money. If you come up with another invention please let me know.

- Timothy Dunn
Forestell, Missouri


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After using your die for a short period of time, I have recovered the cost of my die. My cases now last 10 times longer because the case bulge no longer renders the brass useless. The improved feeding and extraction will now give me a reliable rifle for hunting. Thanks for a great product!

- Art Bosley
(Technology Director) essex Junction, Vermont


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I have resized all of my .300 Win. Mag., 7mm Rem. Mag., and .338 Win. Mag. cases. I noticed that all of my cases were beginning to bulge above the belt after a few reloadings. I have great confidence that your belted magnum collet resizing die has done it's job. I think that you have a winner and wish you the best of luck in the sale of your product. I told a friend of mine in Portland, Oregon about this new die and now he owns one.

- Larry G. Olson
(Retired) Pleasant Hill, Oregon


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I had troubles with a .416 Rem. Mag. that seemed to have a large chamber. I could only reload my cases one or two times before they would become bulged above the belt and would not fit back in the chamber. Now I use your collet resizing die to put my brass back into specifications and it works great.

- C. Sardeson
Blanchardville, WI


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I am real pleased with the die. I read your article in Precision Shooting and figured I'd give it a try. I've been using it on two different .300 Win Mags and one .375 H & H. The first time I resized a case I was dreading getting the collet off but was pleasantly surprised! All in all, it's a very nifty product that I intend to continue using.

- Michael B. Bundy
Katy, TX


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Thanks for such an excellent product. I recently purchased one of your collet resizing dies to use on a customers .350 Rem. Magnum. He was only getting 2 reloadings per case because full length resizing his cases would at best bring them down to .515" at the web, which was too tight to fit in his chamber.
This is where your excellent product comes in. Your collet resizing die reduced the case diameter to .510" and this has increased case life dramatically. I have been reloading for over 20 years and have never used a tool that amazes me as much as your Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die.

- Jason Perryman
(Production Manager) Sooner Reloading Supply
Brunswick, Georgia


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Due to sticky chambering & extraction problems, I needed a solution to avoid pitching cases after only a couple reloadings. I used your Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die and Viola; problem solved. These symptoms have been totally eliminated on two of my .338 Win. Magnum rifles and my .416 Rem. Magnum. I now have a year's worth of experience with your die and I can honestly and fully recommend it to everyone out there that reloads belted magnums. Thanks for making a quality product that addresses such a widespread problem. You have a first class product in this die and its design. In fact, I was so impressed, I bought a "spare"!

- Paul R. Hart
Shelley, Idaho


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"Your Belted Magnum Collet resizing Die is an excellent product, and I think everyone who sells reloading equipment should sell this die. It's simple to operate, it puts cases back to original size, and it saves people time and money. Many reloaders don't realize what causes their cases to not chamber. Every time I use this die, I realize what RCBS, Dillon, etc have missed. It's the best reloading invention in a long time!"

- Bern Ilenstine
Yakima, WA


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UPS delivered my die today that was ordered from Midway. Ran right out to my gun room, put it in my Rockchucker, slathered on some Imperial Sizing Die Wax and pulled the handle down. It works as advertised and is beautifully made to boot. Love working with tools like these. Thanks for your efforts in developing this great tool. The go no-go gauge in the top of the die is a great idea!

- Roy Jackson
Reno, Nevada


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I must say I am completely delighted with your Belted Magnum Collet resizing Die. It does exactly as stated on your website. It brings my .308 Norma Magnum brass back to SAAMI specs above the belt. I was able to save over 2 boxes of brass that had expanded to the point where they would not chamber in my rifle. There is so much disinformation about reloading on the Internet that a newbe like me has to filter all of the true from the false. I can assure all the folks who reload belted magnum ammunation, that this is one tool they must have. Again, I thank you for this great little gadget.

- Glenn Koch
B.C. Canada


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I have thrown a lot of cases away after 3 or 4 firings as they would not chamber or were hard to chamber. I used the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die to size the some handloads that were hard to chamber. WOW, After sizing all the cases they chambered like new ammo. That is amazing. I was reluctant at first to spend that much for the die, but now I see that it is worth every penny. A very good product.

- Rick Marquis
Salem, OR


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I received your die via UPS yesterday ... it is Most impressive!! I cleaned it with solvent, mounted it in an old Rockchucker, lubed everything well with Imperial Sizing Die Wax and gave it a good ringing out. I went thru all my belted cases and managed to salvage several boxes of different calibers that were designated for the scrap bucket. My compliments on your design, and fabrication ..... both are FIRST CLASS!! Thanks for a wonderful product!!!

- John Porter
Austin, TX



- Innovative
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  #11  
Old 12-15-2008, 08:16 AM
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Not saying that this die is not needed by most reloaders but. . . . . . .

There's enough varience in rifle chambers that if you pick up brass at the range, (like I've been known to do) even if you full length resize the brass, chances are it still won't fit your rifle. Been there done that. I've been thinking of the die we are speaking of here as well as one of those close base dies or whatever they are that sizes brass to under SAMMI specs. Just for the fact that there are more people that leave their brass lay than reload it.

A trip to the range, then, would be worth the $78 a year membership. Especially if you can pick up brass that others choose to throw out and put it to good use.

RJ
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  #12  
Old 12-15-2008, 08:33 AM
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recoil junky,

You're referring to "small base dies". They don't work very well for most calibers, and they REALLY don't work for belted magnum cases.

Here's why:

The dies are too tight compared to most fireformed cases. They squeeze the case inward while pushing the brass towards the case head. It's like a bulldozer pushing dirt against a wall. You can look (closely) at any belted case that's been resized in a small base die, and you'll see the brass is piled up "just above the base". It reduces the case body diameter. However, the case diameter just above the belt is actually increased. In most cases you don't even need to measure it - you can see it.

Be sure to ALWAYS headspace your belted handloads on the shoulder, and never push the shoulder back more then .002".

- Innovative
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Old 12-16-2008, 11:21 AM
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I wasn't refering to using the "small base" dies on belted cases even though it may have "sounded" that way. You would think that Lee or somebody qwould come up with a collet die to full length resies non-belted cases. (hint hint hint)


RJ
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Old 12-16-2008, 11:40 AM
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Recoil junkie,

The major die manufactuers aren't the only companies that come up with good ideas. I've already had one company offer to buy my patent. Too low. I had to turned it down. When I tried to pay a major die manufacturer to make these dies for me - they failed. This is a very difficult product to manufacture and sell at any profit. RCBS told me that even they couldn't afford the project. I've found that no company can survive making reloading dies alone. By the way . . . . for the most part, most of those companies are great to deal with.

- Innovative
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Old 12-18-2008, 11:24 AM
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Like most things about reloading, everything has exceptions we can't predict. I find that MOST magnum sizers do fine for MOST rifles but there are the exceptions. For them, Innovative has the tool. And, as he admits, it's a comparitively expensive die to buy but such things are indeed expensive to make! Brass is expensive too. So....

We makes our choice and pays for it; save the money and toss the brass or buy the die and save the brass.
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Old 12-18-2008, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ranger335v View Post
Like most things about reloading, everything has exceptions we can't predict. I find that MOST magnum sizers do fine for MOST rifles but there are the exceptions. For them, Innovative has the tool. And, as he admits, it's a comparitively expensive die to buy but such things are indeed expensive to make! Brass is expensive too. So....

We makes our choice and pays for it; save the money and toss the brass or buy the die and save the brass.
Yup, totally agree. If you don't need it you don't need it. Haven't seen issues myself with the belted mags I have loaded for. Doesn't mean others haven't.

If you need it then it's just a cost amoritization - how much will the die cost, and how much will you save in not having to toss your brass.

I would hazard a guess that the most enthusiastic market for these things would be commercial reloaders, or long range rifle competitors. Personally I could make do for a LONG time with the brass I have one hand for rifles with belts on the cases.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:20 PM
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I know of the product and came close to order one to try... but since I play whit guns I reloaded and fire trough the years several towsend magnum cartridges in a variety of caliber ( 7mm Mag. - .300 Win. Mag. - .300 H.&H. - 8mmx338 Win. Mag. - .338 Win.Mag. and 375 H.&H. ) and never, never, encounter any difficulty in chambering a single reload round. That's why to date I never bought one. (Note: in several instances the brass was reloded in excess of 20 time before it got discarted. )
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:32 AM
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I've heard from several shooters that have never found the need for our collet die. (most all of them seem to have 50 to 90 years of loading experience). Good for them!

However, if you know who's who in shooting ..... you'll see that there are some of the worlds best shooters & hunters (above) endorsing out Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die. The reason I don't keep these dies in stock forever is the $20,000. price tag for each production run. Some of the more clever among us have noticed the uncertain economic problem in the world.

Hint Hint

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Old 01-05-2009, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Innovative View Post
I've heard from several shooters that have never found the need for our collet die. (most all of them seem to have 50 to 90 years of loading experience). Good for them!

However, if you know who's who in shooting ..... you'll see that there are some of the worlds best shooters & hunters (above) endorsing out Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die. The reason I don't keep these dies in stock forever is the $20,000. price tag for each production run. Some of the more clever among us have noticed the uncertain economic problem in the world.

Hint Hint

- Innovative
If you are planning on advertising your products here, you need to get permission from the site owner, Marshall Stanton.

Consider yourself officially notified of board policy.
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