I have a couple quick question for you more expirienced reloaders.
First is the Redding Imperial sizing die wax the same as the regular old Imperial sizing die wax? I bought some of the redding stuff today assuming it was the same stuff many of the guys on here recommend. I was resizing some 300 win mag brass and it seemed I actually got more scoring on the sides of the cases than when I use the Lee stuff. However, it didn't take much effort to size the cases and the scoring didn't seem to get worse as I went. Am I doing something wrong? The scoring is purely cosmetic but it bugs me a little.

For the second question I will give a little background on myself. I have worked for the last 11 years as a journeyman toolmaker at a company that specializes in deep drawn stampings. The knowledge I have gained from this proffesion has probably given me a little different outlook on reloading than most of you. I look at alot of things through a toolmakers eyes and find the tooling aspect of reloading quite interesting. I am also a hunter which is the main reason Igot into reloading. I did not realize there was so much involved in reloading and this has got me even more interested.
My second question is on die quality. I don't want to bore everyone here with a rant on tool steels and carbides and such so I'll try not to be so toolmaker-ish here. From what I can tell the Lee dies are made from a lower grade steel, meening not a high quality tool steel, then they are case hardened as a soft die would not be worth a poo. So the case hardening is adequate as it gives the working surface enough harness to resist galling from the forming operation. I also know that better tool steels resist galling and loading even better. I'm wondering if some of the other die brands are better as far as cases getting scored during sizing. It would be the same principle as the carbide dies which need no lube while sizing. We use tool steels at work that can approach the wear resistance of some carbide but the cost of this steel alone would cost more than an exspensive set of reloading dies.
I'm not trying to slam Lee here, my overall opinion of there stuff so far is its made well enough to do the job and thats whats important to many people. That being said, none of the dies I have looked at from ANY brands are "works of art". The finishes and worksmanship of them would not make it in my line of work, but that is a way different and way more demanding enviroment that our tools function in.
However, in my opinion the tools we can buy for reloading are great, all brands. When you consider they are mass produced, and sold at the prices they are, they are a great buy, even the more exspensive ones are not that exspensive. If you question that then take one of your dies to a local machine shop and have them quote you a price on making you one. After that any die set you buy for under 100$ will seem like a bargain.
I hope I have not offended anyone as thats not my purpose with this thread, please remember that I'm looking at reloading equiptment from a different view than alot of you and I realize most of the things I do and use at work is gross overkill for reloading.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this.
BradB

Brad, how do you come to the conclusion that Lee dies are a case hardened softer grade of steel? Or, as far as that goes, what would tell us that the other die makers don't use the same process?

Considering the nature of dies, I would think they are all made on screw machines or CNC machines, and that would usually make the use of free machining steels necessary, especially when you take in the fact of mass production and low prices. Acceptable prices are probably the main consideration when it comes to dictating production methods.

None of the die sets I have appear to be hardened tool steels. I believe I could cut any one of them I have into scrap, (Redding, RCBS, and Lee) with plain HSS tools on my lathe. I'm not going to try it, though. That would get expensive.

I don't know for sure, but from my machining experience I would think you could make plain steel dies of good quality even out of something like 12L14.
I think the notion of "soft steel" is moot when it comes to sizing something as soft as brass, as long as a proper lube is used.

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Dean,
from Idaho

Brad,

Basically all manufacturers use the same method of producing reloading dies. For standard dies that means they all use what has frequently been referred to as high-speed screw stock, or , in other words, low carbon steel. The raw material is machined in formerly hand operated turret lathes and most likely now CNC lathes. The fully machined die is then hardened by nitriding as the base metal is not heat treatable. After hardening the finished die is polished. For a while, in another life, I worked for RCBS while fred was still alive and running the company himself. I worked in production. FWIW, shell holders are made exactly the same way as the dies. Back in the period I worked for them the shell holders weren't case hardened after machining as they are now. No one uses any form of tool steel to make dies.

The real difference between manufacturers is degree of adherance to tolerances, surface finish, and other cosmetic differences, such as knurling and chamfering, de-burring after stamping, etc.

Another difference between manufacturers is their philosophy of design. This is the really important difference and why I personally do not like Lee DIES. For the record, it is only the seater dies for bottle-neck cartridges which I don't like the design of, the size and expand dies are fine. They make several products which no other company has an equivalent product and which themselves are excellent! In some areas, such as shell holders, they deliberately use somewhat broader dimensional specifications (note I did not say tolerances) so as to make the item somewhat more universal in application.

The real reason Lee dies are less expensive is what they do not do, which are really all cosmetic, and everyone else does do to varying degrees.

You are absolutely correct in saying that reloading dies cannot hold a candle to most tool work, but in reality they are absolutely sufficient for the job they perform, most such as Redding and RCBS far better than necessary. They could be made far prettier, and held to closer tolerances, but it would serve no practical purpose and what is now a $35 die set would probably be more like $250. Just like the difference between a Timex and Rolex, both keep time to a far higher standard than needed, but one is a lot prettier and costs typically several hundred times what the other does. It's all aesthetics.

The reason I was thinking case hardened is that if you hit it with a file it seems hard ,50+ rc anyway, but if you do a rockwell test it shows only about 18 rc which is easily cut with a file. This shows that the surface is hard but the base is not(The indentor is going past the hard surface). Also a soft steel die is slightly more useful than a plastic one but thats not good even when forming soft metals, though it may be fine for reloading. The other gentleman mentioned nitriding which I did not think of, but makes sense also.

I am not familiar with the nitriding process. Can you treat only the working surface or does the entire die get treated? Is it similar to carburizing?
Back to the Lee die. I installed a lock nut on one of my dies similar to the nuts on rcbs dies with the brass set screw because Iwanted something more secure than the O ring it came with. The BRASS set screw boogered the threads! I thought holy cows! What are these turds made of? That incident got me curious about the material being used for the dies. I guess I assumed that they would be made of at least a low end stone age tool steel such as A2, S7, or even O1. Of course I knew they were not a CPM10V or anything like that , but my thinking was dies are made from tool steel. I see the error in my thought process now.
Back to my question, have you guys seen any brand of dies that you see less problems with scoring? Maybe its just the surface finish of one brand is better than others, although a smoother finish is not always better when the use of coolants or lubricants is involed. We sometimes etch the surface of draw dies and punches with a very fine blasting media the creat a surface that will hold the coolant rather than having a real smooth surface that the coolant is easily wiped from.
I wish I had some other brand dies, I would run the profilometer on all of them just to check surface finish. I'm sure I'm putting way too much thought into this but I find it interesting.
Thanks to all who reply.

I saw a post on here where a gentleman said he simply wipes his fingers in the imperial sizing wax then using those fingers transfers the case to the die for sizing. A little goes a long way. I had to make sure the entire o.d. of the case had at least a film of wax on it or it would require alot more pressure to size. Different steels and surface conditions can have a big affect on this. So I guess my question should have been, do other die brands resist scoring and require less pressure to size brass than the lee dies do? I was hoping not to turn this into any kind of an equipment bashing thread, that was the reason for my way to roundabout question in my original post. Thanks guys for all your knowledge and help!

Welcome to the Forum, Brad.

Wow, you really found the doo-doo to step into quickly here! Reloaders are more loyal to their favorite mfrs than NASCAR fans are to their favorite car companies. You hinted that Lee might be a bit on the low-quality end, which brought out all the Lee fans. Notice that the Redding, Hornady, etc. fans remained quiet? I've owned Lee, and have sold it all off on Ebay.

Yes, the redding is the Imperial size die wax now. I'm surprised you had trouble. I use it and find it to be the best of any case lube. Another candidate that's good, but messier, is straight STP. I don't like any of the water-based lubes.

Scoring in size dies is usually trouble only when using nickel plated cases. The best fix is to stop using the die immediately, and to disassemble it and clean it the same way you would clean a barrel - with a brush, patches, and bore cleaning solvent. If that doesn't work, then polishing may be needed. You can run a search to find loads of discussion on that topic.

As far as the brass screw damaging the thread - I haven't had that trouble on RCBS dies. I always thought those dies were made of something like 4140 steel, and heat treated to be hard all the way thru. There are a couple of options - take out the set screw, and drop a piece of lead shot into the hole. Then, use the set screw to compress the soft shot into the threads, to keep the brass from touching them.

My favorite is to use Hornady Sure-Loc Die Locking Rings on all my dies. These grab onto the dies using a cross-screw. http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=391359
There's another company that makes a similar nut, but it's round and lacks wrench flats, so is tough to tighten.

.

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CB Hunter, thanks for your comments. I'm pretty enthusiastic metal head, and I found your remarks informative.

Brad, I'm glad you started this thread. It's an interesting subject, (to me, at least).
I wondered if you had done some kind of testing. Thanks for posting the results. My own question/comment from my first post, about dies of any make being of similar material come from an experience some time back. I had picked up a couple of used die sets, and on both sizers someone must have used a gripping tool of some sort on the threads. I didn't have a chaser or cutting die in 7/8" x 14, so I took the dies to a machinist friend of mine who had one. He ran a HSS thread die over each one and cleaned them up. I figured if he could do that, the sizing dies couldn't have been made of anything too terribly hard.



RCBS dies are the same way, Brad. This shot is from a new RCBS sizer. You can see the brass smear where the set screw pushed on the threads, You can also see the flat mark in two of the threads where the (brass) set screw has crushed them. It's not just Lee, and I don't think you have anything to worry about with their dies.



This is as close as I can get:



I don't know on that one. I haven't had any problems with scoring on any brand that I use, Lee, Redding or RCBS. When I'm using steel dies, I just make sure my cases are clean. The only lubes I've ever used are RCBS and the Lee "toothpaste" type.

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Dean,
from Idaho

He only had two people respond to his post, and neither of us are jumping up and down about Lee.

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Dean,
from Idaho

The first cases I did I used the Lee stuff and didn't really see scoring. I bought the imperial wax to try because it seemed like most guys liked it. I'm not giving up yet on it, I'll give the die a good cleaning and try some more. We'll git er figured out! Thanks guys

He's probably just funnin around. I hope we can keep this all civil. I have all Lee stuff so far but I'm not brand loyal to anything yet. Alot of it is personal preference and opinions but there are facts too. If one die is made from one steel and another from something else, well, thats fact. It may not be here nor there but its still a fact. As I said before its amazing that all these suppliers can sell tools that work as well as they do for the money they charge. I can show you a 2400$ piece of carbide that will fit in your shirt pocket.

One difference in the Lee manufacturing process is they are honed to final dimension rather than just machined and polished. That assures roundness.

As to the scoring problem, it is usually due to dirt or grit scoring the die. Cleaning the brass carefully ahead of time avoids much of it, though I know of no steel die that doesn't wind up marking the surface more than carbide does. A little crocus cloth may be needed if you have no other way to clear it.

If one lube allows more marking than the other it is likely just that the one allowing more scratches is making a thinner film that doesn't float the brass over the scratching burrs as well as the other does. The downside of that floating is a tougher lube film that offers more opportunity to be thick enough to dent the case.

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Nick

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"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

In my 40 years of reloading and using dies made by RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Texan and Redding, I have only scratched the finish on one die, a RCBS. (I think it was my buddy who also used my shop who did it). All of the makes have served me well and have done what I needed. I have always made an effort to have all my brass extremely clean prior to sizing. Only after joining this forum was I made aware of the Sterling Sizing Wax. I will not use anything else on full length sizing anymore. I am not particularly brand loyal, but dollar loyal. I have bought a lot of Lee lately due to the fact that not only do you get a set of dies, but a shell holder and a Lee Factory Crimp Die too for the same price. All the different opinions and ideas is what makes this forum such a good place to visit.

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This kinda dates me, but RCBS lock rings used to come with the lead shot and allen head screws. Once locked in, it was miserable breaking them free. I prefer the new lock rings with the brass screws, even if they do "booger" the die threads a bit. At least when you loosen the brass screw, the lock ring turns easily.

As to the Hornady Sure-Loc Die locking rings, I'm with you all the way there!

I never use the set screws. Since I have several presses with different thickness die bosses, using a set screw is impractical.

I'm just a hobbyist toolmaker, welder, plumber, electrician, and a professional cartographer, I really notice the fine detail in things that I do. All of my reloading equipment is RCBS, and I've never had a scoring issue with any. I'm not saying they can't score a case, but mine haven't.
I also use the Imperial wax, its the best stuff ever.

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Everyone has brought up good points here and I appreciate the responses. I gave the die a good scrubbing and a light polish with some worn out 600 grit emery, I did some more cases and things look much better. I believe I just had some crap in there floating around. Thanks again guys.
P.S If I do get another brand of die sometime I will check the surface finish and report back if anyone is interested.

BradB

Not that I've been reloading long enough, but before RCBS dies came with steel set screws and lead shot buffers, they came with aluminum cross bolt lock rings similar to Forster, except the RCBS ones had socket head cap screws for cross bolts, whereas Forster uses a phillips head cross bolt/screw. I still find the old RCBS cross bolt lock rings at gun shows in junk boxes, and buy them up whenever I find them, usually for just a dollar or so. I also like Hornady lock rings (socket head cross bolt design, made of steel, with wrench flats). Finally Lyman sells a cross-bolt lock ring, but for some reason does not include it with their dies, instead providing set screw type lock rings with their dies. I have not used them, but have no reason to believe they would not be excellent quality too. In general the cross-bolt design locks more securely, and releases more easily, than any set screw design, and will not bugger up the threads on the die.

Andy

I have some of the old RCBS dies that I bought new in the 70's. They have the split ring cross bolt collars too. They do work well, but I have to tighten the cross bolt very snug to keep them from coming loose.

As far as the new type RCBS collars with the brass set screws go, even though they make a flat spot on the die threads, they don't interfere with collar adjustment on my dies. I don't know what thread class they use, but they have enough tolerance to let the collar rotate easily over the flat spots.

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Dean,
from Idaho

I use RCBS, Lee, and Lyman dies all with good success. Since I'm not a machinist, nor do I play one on TV, I really don't give a hoot about the manufacturing process. Just give me a set of dies that work.

If I get one that fails, or has problems, then I might consider changing, but for now they all do a great job!

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Seems like somewhere I came across a hex nut with the cross screw, but now I can only find the Hornady with just the 2 wrench flats. Anyone know a source for split hex nuts with the cross-screw?

.

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Do not confuse liberal with liberty, especially when the Right to Keep arms is concerned.
Liberals are like Slinkies - Not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the staris.