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  #1  
Old 11-20-2012, 03:03 AM
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Redding Dies?


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Is .007" bullet runout common for Redding Dies? Checking the concentricity of the 223's loaded with these dies are as good as I'm getting. I'm getting .003 right on the neck of the case, and these are neck turned cases that measure a perfect .011" all the way around when measuring wall thickness. I've got RCBS, Hornady, Lyman, and Lee, and I've never had a set that gave this much runout. I rand all the brass through the Redding Neck Sizer and this is what I got. I've tried a few back through the FL die but didn't really change anything. I tried running a reamer through several cases but that didn't help either.

My 223 barreled action will be delivered by UPS in the morning and I'm preping brass and loading some light loads to start breaking in the barrel. Since these are the first 223's I've loaded, even though they really mean nothing, I was going through and checking everything about them, making sure everything was right. With this much runout, these bullets may go down the barrel sideways.

I thought Redding was suppose to be a good set of Dies, they cost enough. This is only other set of Redding dies I've owned, is a set of 260 dies I've never really used them because I didn't like the neck sizer and ordered the Lee die set with the Collet neck sizing die and I just used the Lee Seating die that came with it. Not sure why I didn't get the same Lee set in 223, but I didn't. The 260 was my first set Lee and have no complaints with it. Looks like I will be ordering a set of the Lee 223 dies also.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:13 AM
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New brass??? Or once fired, if once fired was it in your rifle????
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:14 AM
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Redding dies are usually first rate quality.
Just for giggles, measure the run out on some cases that you've neck turned, before you size them. Uniform neck thickness is good, but it doesn't necessarily mean all the brass taken off was taken off evenly around the neck. If it isn't, you may be inducing run out in the neck turning step.
I would also measure the run out on some fired, unsized cases. That will tell you how concentric the chamber is to the bore. If the chamber isn't concentric to the bore, that's a very difficult problem to overcome.
By the way, a run out measurement of .003 on a sized case isn't uncommon. I'd be more concerned about the .007 measurement of loaded rounds. You can often reduce run out during the bullet seating step by seating the bullet only half way, then turning the case/bullet combo 180 degrees, and finish seating the bullet.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jaguarxk120 View Post
New brass??? Or once fired, if once fired was it in your rifle????
Obviously not fired in his rifle since the barrel action hasn't arrived yet.

Have two sets of Redding Competition bushing dies. Neither the 22-250 or the .223 set deliver more than .0015 for an average TIR with trued necks.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:13 AM
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Then chances are the brass is range pickings or fired mil. brass.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jaguarxk120 View Post
Then chances are the brass is range pickings or fired mil. brass.
I don't think so. Ben mentioned in another thread he bought like 300 rounds of new .223 Winchester? brass. If you haven't been following the posts on this site he usually gets outstanding results from his efforts.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:03 AM
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Here is something on the Redding dies

The Rifleman's Journal: Reloading: Seating Die Runout
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2012, 11:44 AM
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0.007" is bad (my opinion). OK, break it down into steps.

First, resize in the full-length die with the expander button removed. Removing the expander button is critical, you need to know if the die is straight. What is the runout? It should be perfect or no more than 0.001" in my opinion. There is a fly in the ointment that the necks have been turned so they may not be contacting the die. Try it with both your neck-turned cases and then with cases that have not been turned. Post the results of each.

Next - if you got good results with the FL die and no expander, then you can put the expander back in and see what happens. If the cases are straight with no expander in the die, then are crooked with an expander, then the expander is your problem. Pretty common in my experience. If it's the expander then you need to expand the necks in a second step - I use the Lyman "M" die.

Once the cases are resized (and straight) and expanded (and straight), then you can figure out if the bullet seater die is making things worse.

Again - you MUST break it down into separate steps, you MUST measure carefully between each step, and I'd recommend doing 10 cases or so at a time to ensure it isn't just one or two problem cases causing the issue(s).

Let us know if you make any progress and find out what step the issue happens in.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:17 PM
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Mike, I"ve already been through the steps, but I think my brass has already been, or was from the start, out of whack.
The bad part, as mentioned I bought 300 pieces of WW brass and while bored and doing nothing I went ahead and preped all 300. All were neck sized in the Redding Neck die and then all were turned to the same thickness, but only took enough off the make them round and uniform. When I loaded that first 20 and they all had the identical amount of run out, I ran several more pieces of brass thru the FL sizer and tried a few of them but got the same exact .007" and .003 without a bullet seated. The was with or without the expander in it. I will have to pick up a bag of Remington from BPS, (that's about the only local source) and see how they do. It's very possible I got a bad batch of WW brass, I'll just have to start going through the process of elimination with different brass.

This was just their three die set with their standard Neck sizing die, not their competition die set. Everything I've read gave Redding very good reviews so after I get some fresh, untouch brass, I will start trouble shooting.

Right now, I have plenty of time. I've just finished doing the barrel channel in the stock, still have the bedding a lots of work to do there, and for breakin loads, I'm not shooting for accuracy anyway. This just fits in with just about everything I do. No ever seems to go as simple as should, for me it always seem to be just the opposite, even the most simple jobs turn out to be a royal PITA.

Last edited by BKeith; 11-20-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:43 PM
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Mike gave excellent advice, break it down into steps and examine/correct after each step.

When you neck turn the brass do you have it chucked up in a drill? If yes, you will visually see .007" runout as it will be wobbly in the chuck with the most wobble being at the end of the case neck. You may be surprised how little runout you can see with the brass spinning at drill speeds.

If you have a piece of brass that has zero runout use it as a guide prior to locking your die in place in the press. This will help reform any problem cases. Check that piece of brass (alignment master) to be sure the flash hole is centered so it will properly align the expander to the case as well.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:50 PM
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BKeith, I don't know if this is worth a shot but I'll offer it anyway. On your full length sizer back off the seating stem until top of the expander button is is just below the neck section in the die. As you pull the case from the die the OD of the neck will support the case as the expander button goes to work. I generally leave the lock nut loose so the expander can find it's own center.

Did you get the carbide expander with your die set?
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  #12  
Old 11-20-2012, 05:37 PM
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Well if you have a full-length sizing die, try that and see if it puts the cases back where they should be. My only experience with neck sizing dies convinced me that they can do more harm than good as far as concentricity goes.

If a case isn't concentric, then no neck sizing die in the world will make it so. However, in a full length die that is manufactured correctly, even a non-concentric case should be improved if not perfect when it comes out.

My experience.
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  #13  
Old 11-20-2012, 07:22 PM
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Lot of time new case won't fully size in FL die and after case is fired before sizing check run out then compare to FL one.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:45 PM
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I had already tried them with the expander in and with it out

I 've tried several of them in the Full Length die but if they were already out or the neck sizing die was off, I'm not sure the FL die would change anything because I think with it only being a couple thousandths out on the brass, it would just spring back to where it's off as soon as you pulled it out of the die.

I'm going to do like Old Roper said and see how they do after they have been fire formed. I've been working on it most of the day getting the rifle together good enough so I can shoot it tomorrow.

I've got the barrel channel in the stock opened for the bigger barrel. I've got the magazine modified for the longer 223 bullets instead of the 222's. I've got the scope base bedded and the rings lapped so the scope is ready to go on. I will mount and level it tomorrow on my scope setup system I have outside. I still need to make the pillar post and do the bedding, but not sure I'm going to put the V-Block in it. I've pretty well decided I'm going to convert it removable 10 round clips. Plus I've still got all the trigger work to do. You know, there is a ton of work to get a rifle properly set up.

I do think I'm gonna like this Ceracoat, just for how hard it was to lap those scope rings with that stuff on them, showed me the stuff is pretty dang tuff.

Last edited by BKeith; 11-20-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:50 AM
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With all the work you are doing to the rifle you could probably put the bullet in backwards and have good results.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:54 PM
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Anybody want a whole bunch of 223 reloading stuff. I'm about ready to drop all this in a trash can. I went to BPS today to get some more new brass, they didn't have any Remington and the tag said they wouldn't have any til next Oct. I got another bag of WW, since it would at least be new and unaltered.

Coming straight out of the bag, the neck pretty much measure .003 - .004" runout. I can neck size it and that goes to.009", no matter what I do, expander in/out, rotate the brass, try a different press, that's what I get.

Now, if I full size it, it can be anywhere between .007 and .0005" depending on how the brass is in the die. I can put a black mark on the shell and rotate it 90 degrees each time and in one position it will have less than 1/2 thousandths run out, while resized in another position it can have as much as .007" runout.

My next test was with some of the once fired brass. It's checking approx .001 - .0015 as it came out of the chamber. Full length resize it and that goes to .007"

I was using a little Lee challenger press because I already had it out load some pistol bullets. I set up the RockChucker and everything the same as it was with the Lee.

I've gone back and measured bullets for the 22-250 and the 6mm, since those are the last ones I recently loaded and you couldn't ask for them to be any better. So far, not of the others have ever given a problem but this pile of 223 junk I've get here is about the get my last nerve.

Just had another idea. I took several pieces of brass that come out of the Redding FL Die .007 out. I then ran them in my 40 year old Lyman 222 die as far as they would go (lacked about 1/4" naturaly) so it would resize and hopefully center the neck and top part of the brass. I measured the runout and they were between .001 and .0015". I then ran that same brass back through the Redding FL die and they came out measuring .007" runout.

I'm starting the think, there's a skunk in Redding town. I've been reloading a long time and have numbers of dies and I've never run into the problems I've having right now. I have spent most of the day chasing this rabbit and the funs about gone.

Last edited by BKeith; 11-22-2012 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:01 PM
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I think the die is bad.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:12 PM
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BKeith, I use bushing dies mainly Wilson and body die for sizing. One of the big improvement has been the Redding dies and options they offer.

I don't always agree how they market dies but they do make good ones. they make a carbide sizing button that self center case neck.

Redding Carbide Size Button Kit 22 Cal
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:43 PM
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Yea, I've done pitched in the towel and threw up the white flag. I sent Redding an email explaining my problems and see what they have to say.

Everybody says their competition dies are about the best one going, but I didn't really want to pay the price for a set of competition dies just to load a few bullets for a hunting rifle. Granted I want them accurate, but I've been able to get much better loads out of a $30 set of Lee dies, than I'm getting out of what suppose to be a high quality die.

Now, I'm gonna get out their set of 260 dies I bought and have never used to see what they do. Maybe they use the quality and reputation of their competition dies to sell their others. I've had such good results with the Lee Collet 260 die set I almost bought another set of those for the 223 but bought the Redding. Kinda wish I had got the Lee. I know I spend a whole lot of money each month on my shooting, but dang, I hate just throwing $65 in the trash. I bought the Die's several months ago when I first sent the rifle off to be built, so I'm sure it's too late to send these dies back.

Just for the heck of it, I just reloaded five bullets using the Lyman 222 FL sizing die and the Lyman 222 seating die. All five only had .001" runout or less. Same brass, bullets, press as used before, only difference, different dies.

Last edited by BKeith; 11-22-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:22 AM
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Yea, I've done pitched in the towel and threw up the white flag. I sent Redding an email explaining my problems and see what they have to say.

Everybody says their competition dies are about the best one going, but I didn't really want to pay the price for a set of competition dies just to load a few bullets for a hunting rifle. Granted I want them accurate, but I've been able to get much better loads out of a $30 set of Lee dies, than I'm getting out of what suppose to be a high quality die.

Now, I'm gonna get out their set of 260 dies I bought and have never used to see what they do. Maybe they use the quality and reputation of their competition dies to sell their others. I've had such good results with the Lee Collet 260 die set I almost bought another set of those for the 223 but bought the Redding. Kinda wish I had got the Lee. I know I spend a whole lot of money each month on my shooting, but dang, I hate just throwing $65 in the trash. I bought the Die's several months ago when I first sent the rifle off to be built, so I'm sure it's too late to send these dies back.

Just for the heck of it, I just reloaded five bullets using the Lyman 222 FL sizing die and the Lyman 222 seating die. All five only had .001" runout or less. Same brass, bullets, press as used before, only difference, different dies.
Only dies I use of Redding is their Type S FL/Neck and body die and I've had them make me some few years back not sure their doing that anymore so can't comment on other type they make.

hope all works out for you
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