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25-35 loads

94K views 184 replies 32 participants last post by  lefevre.cj 
#1 · (Edited)
Got my brand new 94win in 25-35 and wondered if anybody still loaded this baby. I bought 117gr. Hornady RN and the 25-20 bullet that is 86gr. put out by Rem. Anybody have any favorite loads? I have nearly every powder in this speed catagory. Just wondered if there was a fav. load out there.

Amazingly, it was easy to find brass and bullets. Will have to try cast, although molds appropriate look to be high priced.
 
#2 ·
Have loaded 25-35 for a T/C pistol and spend a few years with a .25Rem. (different shape..same volume and pressure rating). Hard to beat 3031 as an all around powder in this case.

You did pick two of the better bullet choices...those 117gr. Hornady RN's are just about perfect for deer hunting with this caliber and the little 86gr. Remingtons are very expansive at these speeds....so you have big game and varmints covered.
 
#5 ·
After the Marlin rifle the next most needed item is a 100 grain Hornady JFN bullet. The Hornady bullets have a good wide meplat. A Speer Hot Core would be great too as the Speer bullet would have a better ballistic coefficient.

A few years ago Ken Waters called for this bullet in two of his Pet Loads articles in Handloder. Nothing happened as Waters was going into semi-retirement and at the time there was not a new .25-35 rifle available. All of that is changed now but we dont have the well known advocate for the cartridge and bullet.

I am beginnig to wonder if the Premier reloading internet board, Beartooth Bullets, should not make folders within the reloading forum to seperate calibers. Perhaps only the older threads would be dropped into the specific caliber folder. Or possibly a sort by caliber option to ease finding information that is .444 of .375 specific?
What other well moderated board has such specific, reliablereloading information on the .444, Shotgun slug, .375 Winchester, .30-30 etc?
 
#6 ·
DR A
I have this same rifle. I installed a williams peep, and have shot it about 60 times. This weekend I'll try to chronograph some loads.I tried IMR3031 and IMR4064. 4064 seems a little more accurate in my rifle (could be me). 25.5 grns gave me 2150 fps out of my 1950 vintage 25-35. This load also shoots good in my new rifle. I have heard people say 2300 fps is reachable but if my rifle is any indication, it won't be easy. I'll try some of the other powders that the guys listed. Slim is right about more bullets, we need some. I don't know who could champion our cause now that Ken Waters is kinda retired. Dave scovill maybe? It will help if winchester keeps the rifle around for awhile. Good luck with your new gun and let us know of any good loads you come up with.
 
#7 ·
William, I will e-mail the gunshop guy immediately. I know it was not Davidsons. The gun is not as pretty as my 356 and 9422, Stock has a dark stain (which I like), and the action seems very broken in. The trigger pull is again horrendous, but that seemed to lessen with use in my 356 by quite a bit. I find it hard to look at the action and to think about mounting a scope on these guns. I have mounted one on the 356 for load development, and found it obviously helps on longish shots. The 25-35 will be fun to dink around with. I don't need another whitetail gun, so if this one shoots smaller bullets, it will be a coyote gun. OAL is somewhat troublesome, and although it fed well, I can't get over how far that bullet is from the lands. You guys are right. A flat point in 100gr. is very much needed. The iron sights seemed somewhat more useful to me. The front bead is smaller than the Marlin, and the rear sight not quite as occlusive. Unfortunately, I don't shoot real well with any irons (or at least up to my shooting standards), so I scope virtually everything except my 357 carbine. I have used 3031, H4895, and BL-C(2). Cases were readily available from Graf's. I wish that Marlin made one, but of course they never did???. I wish they made the 25-36! Meanwhile, I impatiently await a real varmint gun in 218. Hopefully offered next year.
 
#8 ·
In my 24” barrel 2300 fps is just possible. I figure about 100 fps less with the 20” barrel.
In my 24” barrel with the 117 grain Hornady JRN 27.0 grains of IMR 4329, 28.0 grains of Winchester 748 and 27.5 grains of Hodgdon 335 all break 2300 fps.

My hero Francis Sell liked 30.0 grains of IMR 4064. I have shot this load but never chronographed it.

Fortunately 2200 fps is enough with this good bullet.

I think Scovill is our champion. No other gunwriter honestly uses the cartridge today. Beartooth Forum Member Greg Mushial is working with the cartridge now but he is not far enough along to report on it.

All of my efforts at finding one of these new Winchesters have come up dry. Good thing I have the TC to help cool the fire!

Dr. A, I would appreciate knowing where they are!
Francis Sell said that the smaller the bead the smaller the group. We have been testing this theory (through the fall and last winter) by fitting different sights to the Winchester M-94AE that i have pictured with the cut magazine. I have poor eyesight and with the smaller beads I need the sun at my back to shoot small groups. With the bigger beads I do well in most light. the round beads that come on factory rifles are difficult to shoot. Forum member chris Cash has posted on this some. He filed the bead on his .356 flat and improved his shooting.

I have a Marlin .218 Bee and it is aquite a varmint rifle for those critters under about 40 pounds. Over that the .25-35 has it beat soundly. The 75 Sierra JHP is the bullet for me. It is both accurate and efficient.
See if your library can get you Francis Sells American Deer Hunter, Advanced Deer Hunitng and small Game Hunting. the .218 Bee and the .25-35 are stars in these three books, along with the .348 WCF.

If you run a trajectory chart with the .218 Bee and the modern .356 you will see that they have pretty close to the same trajectory out to 200 yars. Sell called the Bee his understudy rifle. Still works today.
 
#12 ·
Dr. A said:
What crimp do you use. .

I have both Lee and RCBS dies. they both put on a nice roll crimp. I have found a crimp helps even in my single shot.

somebody has to be first on the Factory crimp die.
When my Dad ordered his .260 factory crimp die somone else had sent a cartridge in and lee asked a few questions and just made another to those dimensions.
 
#13 ·
Dr. A said:
William (or anybody). What crimp do you use. Found out I have to send in a case seated bullet to fit for the 25-35 Lee crimp die. Wonder if I could grind down a 250 Savage? Those crimps really spoil me for consistancy.
Don't think you'd have to do anything to the .250savage dies at all....just seat them farther up in the press and they will work as neck size dies.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Dr. A

I saw your post on the other board about cast bullets. This is not the best picture but it shows a factory Winchester 117 grain load, a Hornady 117 grain JRN, My NEI 110 grain cast bullet, the Remington 86 grain JFN .25-20 bullet and the 100 grain Nosler Partition.

These are load to 2.530" if I remeber correctly. You can see the NEI cast bullet has a good crimp groove. Loaded to the crimp groove this one feeds well in the Winchesters. Itis a pretty good bullet below 1800 fps. 1850 fps is pushing it pretty fast in the 8 and 9" twist barrels..
 

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#15 ·
Here are some loads Parley found and posted awhile back.

Parley Baer SASS #24785
Member
Member # 9813 posteddocument.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2003,8,9,17,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); 09-09-2003 05:59 PM <HR align=center width="100%" color=black noShade SIZE=1>
OK I found the December 1999 issue for you. Here are the cast bullet loads. All with Remington 9 1/2 primers. 25-35 Winchester brass. Parley

First group with 88 grain Lyman 257231 flatnose plainbase bullet.
1. 9.0 grains IMR 4227 Velocity 1325
2. 10.5 grains IMR 4227 Velocity 1550
3. 8.5 grains SR-4759 Velocity 1396
4. 10.0 grains SR-4759 Velocity 1510
Next group uses the 110 Lyman 257325 Roundnose gas check bullet.
1. 10.0 grains IMR 4227 Velocity 1450
2. 12.0 grains IMR 4227 Velocity 1600
3. 14.0 grains IMR 4198 Velocity 1668 Good Load
4. 16.0 grains IMR 4198 Veloctiy 1845
5. 18.0 grains IMR 3031 Veloctiy 1640
6. 20.0 grains IMR 3031 Veloctiy 1805 Accurate
7. 21.0 grains IMR 3031 Velocity 1890
 
#16 ·
Was able to obtain 2220fps out of H4895. Was not at max, but close. Doubt it will go all the way to 2300. No worry, that was very accurate. I had problems with the rebounding hammer. Could be me, but I have taught myself to hold it so that the lever does not go down. Checked my primers last right, and all seemed OK. Entirely too many misfires. Out of 20 loaded, I had 3 misfires. I only had one out of 50 on Friday. Winchester says to send it in. I will hold off till after next weekend. perhaps my hurried late Saturday night technique had something to do with that.

On another note, the Hornady 117 expands VIOLENTLY! I called turkeys in and made my 2 kills. Soon after a coyote comes loping along. My call area is right behind my garage (good cover), and scurried around to the truck and got out the gun. Shot him in the chest and really tore him up. Wondering if this expands too well for deer? I got the gun for coyotes, so I am satisfied. Wish Marlin made their 25-36 again...
 
#17 ·
Dr. A.

I have necver heard anyone complain about the performance on our "dog size deer". The 117 Hornadys exit on most shots and do not have reputation for leaving their jackets.

Were you using the new gold colored Winchester primers? i have had a problem with these new Winchester primers miss-firing in several levercation rifles, both Marlin and Winchester. The silver Winchester primers and CCI, Federal and Remington do not miss-fire in the same rifles.

It is always a possibility that there is a burr on the hammer spring or on one of the struts. If you do not have the link on slicking a Winchester rebound hammer and trigger assy. let me know and I will attach it.
For bench work if I am switching from Marlins to Winchesters I sometimes need to think about squeesing the lever for the first shot or two.
 
#19 · (Edited)
On one of these threads someone asked about the .25-35AI. I dont have an Ackley Improved in my collection but I do have a .25-30-30 Improved. Not certain who thought this one up. The case is 2.00" long. The reduction in length is due to blowing the case out. The shoulder is further forward than Ackleys Improved version. The shoulder on this one is a little smaller in diameter than Ackleys. They are close enough to compare for looks with the standard .25-35.
On the left is the Improved. A few factory .25-35's. On the right is a .25 Remington and then a .25-36 Marlin.

Lying on their side is a comparison of the protected primer.
 

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#21 ·
Slim,
Interesting pictures - I never saw the 25-30-30 imp. before. That may have been me asking about the 25-35AI. I was wondering if anyone had one and if they could get them to fireform from 25-35 without splitting the cases. I am currently waiting for my EABCO M97D 25-35AI falling block single shot rifle to be completed. I'll let you know how I make out with case forming and what ballistics I get from the 23" barrel it will have.
 
#22 ·
SMK,
I'll bet it is hard to wait! I like those EAB rifles.
I also like the articles on their web sire.

This one is a little different from Ackleys cartridge in that it has a shorter neck and the shoulder is pushed forward a little further. .25-35 cases were not commonly available and these are made from .30-30 brass.
When making your cases I suggest a .219 zipper No. 1 form die from Redding. I use that as my 1st step, then full length size in the standard .25-35 die. The cases grow and need to be trimmed. There is also a doughnut ring at the inside bottom of the neck that I ream out with a Forster case trimmer and ream. My TC barrel has a nice chamber but the reformed brass fits just a little better than the standard .25-35 brass.

My Winchester is due in on the 28th. As I compare it to the TC barrel I will then ream the TC barrel to Francis Sell's Tomcat. If I like it I will then ream the Winchester.

Your results will be good reading!
 
#23 ·
DR. A

I finally got out to shoot the new Winchester M94AE in .25-35. My Weaver V-3 has not arrived yet so we shot with open sights. At thirty five yards the rifle shows remarkable accuracy. Time will tell but this rifle looks like fun.

117 grain Winchester factory loads chronographed 2125fps from the 20" barrel.. Measuring the pressure rings the unfired cases measured .4126" and the fired cases measure .4128"

Using new .25-35 Winchester cases with 27.0 grains of IMR 3031 behind the 86 grain Remington (.25-20) bullet loaded to 2.55" these loads chronographed 2612 fps and the cases measure .4120" before firing and .4123"after firing. A very good load.

Using the 117 grain Hornady JRN bullet ahead of 24.0 grains of IMR 3031 I got 2216 fps with the .25-35 cases measuring .4122" after firing.

The NEI #23 110 grain bullet shot under 2" with my poor eyes and left a nice round group. In the .25-35 cases with 19.0 grains of IMR 3031 these gave us 1898 fps. I never do get very low extreme spreads with IMR 3031 and this load is no different. The E for five shots was 41 fps. These loads wore a light crimp. The pressure ring measures .4121". These loads are just not snapping these new cases out into the chamber.

Switching to reformed .30-30 cases I started off with the 86 grain Remington bullet ahead of 22.0 grains of Hodgdon 4198. This is a good load in my TC barrel. These loads were about 2.700" long and they were a tight fit in the Winchesters chamber. These gave us 2258 fps with easy extraction. The R-P .30-30 cases measured .4150" before and .4151" after firing. These cases have been shot a lot in the TC barrel and were full length resized prior to loading.

Using reformed R-P .30-30 brass full length resized loaded with 27.0 grains of IMR 4320 behind the 86 grain Remington bullet. This load gave us 2283 fps. The cases measures .4148 before and .4156" after firing. I believe this to be a rather mild load despite the .0008" pressure ring expansion. The extreme spread was 22 fps.

I can hardly wait for the scope.
 
#24 ·
Gents -

As William Iorg has alluded to - yes we're in the process of taking 25-35 (slow twist) data... but given a broken strongside collarbone it's been going more slowly then we hoped... but we have gotten some data. As per what we've been doing over on MarlinOwners w/re the 450Alaskan data, if there's interest I'll do the same for the 25-35.

These will the the links - (the links will not change over time, but the data on the pointed to pages will be updated as we shoot it).

PWV graph (powder weight vs velocity) :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spPWV.jpg

GSV graph (groupsize as a function of velocity - 10 rounds from bench at 50yrds varmint style [ie, front rest only]) :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spGSV.jpg

and the data :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86sp.htm

Of note: Unlike a "real" 25-35 which will tend to have a 1:8 or 1:10 twist barrel - we're taking data with a "slow twist" barrel (or more specifically, a 25-20 1:16 barrel which has been reamed to 25-35). The net results are twofold: 1) with only 22" of barrel we're seeing 24-26" 1:8 barrel velocities - with a 1:8 or :10 one should not expect to see these numbers; and 2) since in a 1:16 only half the energy is being put into spinning the bullet (vs 1:8), it is easier for the bullet to make its way down the bore, ie, we're going to see less peak pressure than than 1:8 barrel (keep that in mind if one chooses to use the data). Our intent given the body taper of the unimproved 25-35 is to keep the loads on the light side of hot - when we take the 25-35 Improved data, then we'll see just how fast we can make the bullets fly... but not until.

We offer this data on the basis of: this is what we shot, this is what we saw... and we got away with it, ie, this data may be entirely inappropriate for any other firearm than the data was taken with.

We're trying to get to the range tomorrow - if we do we'll add another 6 powders to the 25-35 collection. If such does happen I'll update the above linked pages with the extra data.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

ps. we're looking at the 25-35st as a varmint round vs a deer cartridge, as such, over time our data will be limited to 60-90gr bullets (heavier than that won't stabilize). After we're done with the jacketed data, then we'll return and take the lead data [we actually started with the lead data, but it seems that the barrel we're using is one of the roughest Marlin has ever produced and as such are now using the jacketed data to "firelap" the barrel to make it lead safe - then we'll return to the jacket-free loads.]
 
#25 ·
yes we're in the process of taking 25-35 (slow
twist) data, … if there's interest I'll do the same for the 25-35.
I am very interested.

PWV graph (powder weight vs velocity) :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spPWV.jpg

GSV graph (groupsize as a function of velocity - 10 rounds from bench at 50yrds
varmint style [ie, front rest only]) :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spGSV.jpg

and the data :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86sp.htm

I turned these into hyperlinks. For those who have not seen your graphs they are very interesting. The graphs show several different powders and raise the powder charge and resulting velocity up the graph line. You are able to compare powders for maximum velocity, rate of increase in velocity for each grain of powder etc. Very useful when trying to determine which powder is bulkier for cowboy or reduced velocity loads. Or which powder will give the highest velocity. The companion graph which compares accuracy to powder charge is the most interesting. 10 shot groups remove a lot of the luck factor. As long as there are not too many powders on the graph they are very useful.

Of note: Unlike a "real" 25-35 which will tend to have a 1:8 or 1:10 twist
barrel - we're taking data with a "slow twist" barrel (or more specifically, a
25-20 1:16 barrel which has been reamed to 25-35). The net results are twofold:
1) with only 22" of barrel we're seeing 24-26" 1:8 barrel velocities - with a
1:8 or :10 one should not expect to see these numbers; and 2) since in a 1:16
only half the energy is being put into spinning the bullet (vs 1:8), it is
easier for the bullet to make its way down the bore, ie, we're going to see less
peak pressure than than 1:8 barrel (keep that in mind if one chooses to use the
data). Our intent given the body taper of the unimproved 25-35 is to keep the
loads on the light side of hot -
This is very interesting. Dr. F. W. Mann and Townsend Whelen both experimented with slow twist barrels. Whelen had a Winchester Lo-wall in .25-35 with a slow twist barrel. This rifle was throated for varmint bullets and was very accurate. Estey wrote about this rifle in “The Woodchuck Hunter” and Whelen/Angier described it in “Mr. Rifleman”. My TC barrel is fast twist and throated for 117 grain bullets. It would sure be fun to have David White make up a slow twist TC barrel to compare the two.
SMK, do you know what twist you are getting in your EAB rifle? Your data will be interesting to compare with Gregs. There is no modern, reliable data with todays powders available for the .25-35AI that I am aware of. The two of you will share a first.

www.gmdr.com


ps. we're looking at the 25-35st as a varmint round vs a deer cartridge, as
such, over time our data will be limited to 60-90gr bullets (heavier than that
won't stabilize).
As I have said one of the most accurate bullets I have shot in my current .25-35 is the Sierra
75 grain JHP. I cannot wait to try this bullet in my new Winchester to see if it will come close to my TC in accuracy. If anyone is shooting the .25 Bullberry it would be interesting to hear from them also.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Got to the range this morning, and did add 6 powders to the 25-35 collection (vvn140, aa2015, h322, i4320, vvn130 and rl7). The graphs and html which the above links point to have been updated.

Some comments on the data (but all relative to our firearm):

- most of the top loads are max loads.
- the vvn130, 133, 135 and 140 appear to have room to go another grain; the 135 and 140, maybe 2 gr.
- the vvn120 data is the lower branch of its data, the 16-20gr branch is in process.
- the lilgun 16gr load is hot!

- for target shooting, the bullet/cartridge/firearm seems to have a sweetspot at or just under 2k fps - suspect given careful loads and shooting, one could go under 1 moa for 5 shots (not bad for a bulk seriously-long-in-the-tooth bullets).

- nicely, for hunting, one can load them hot (28-2900fps) and still really not give too much away in terms of accuracy - it's always nice when one can get away with such (which is not normally the case for leverguns). When we get to the 75gr sierra hp's, where the top loads should be over 3000fps, we'll almost be talking about a serious flat shoot'n levergun :) .


Other than that: time for me to get a shower (and quit smelling like burned vvn140)... and get the brass into the tumblers and get ready for the next range trip... and another 6 new powders for the 25-35 - We'll post them when we've got 'em (probably next monday or tuesday - weather speculators are calling for showers tonight thru sunday, ie, good time to reload and be ready when it clears).

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

ps. the 300 pieces of brass we're using to take the data will be on their 7th reloading... and at least as of the 6th reloading, no case stretch has been seen (at least at the .002" level), ie, although we're calling the loads max, the brass isn't being beat up.

pps. if we do the interior ballistics correctly, it appears that we're giving back about 4000 CUP in terms of pressure by going with the 1:16 barrel vs a 1:8, ie, the longtime industry standard 30gr i3031 max load, appears hot, but only moderately so (but not nearly the cratered primers one remembers from a 1:8 winchester shooting the same load of yesteryear).

ppps. the PWV graph is Velocity (fps) as a function of PowderWeight (grains); the GSV graph is GroupSize (inches, 10 shots, at 50 yrds, varmint style, from bench) vs Velocity (fps).
 
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