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  #1  
Old 10-23-2005, 08:42 AM
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New to me 33WCF


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Well, looked for a long time and finally picked up a Marlin 1895 in 33 WCF circa 1905-06. I was wondering if anyone had any pet loads - light for practice and a little heavier for hunting. (It came with the 45-70 to 33WCF case forming dies and full length die set as well as three boxes of brass already cut down and two boxes of bullets). I would like recommendations on moulds for this round as well if anyone has a preference their rifle likes. Thanks for any recommendations.
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2005, 01:28 AM
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I've been tempted to make a gun in .33 WCF for some time, but I've never done so and can't give you any tested formulas -- sorry.

Hornday has stopped selling jacketed bullets for the .33 WCF, and I think Hawk may now be the only supplier. For the velocities in question, a two pour "partition" style cast bullet should do wonders.

I've always wondered why it was never offered with 250 gn bullets. Both QuickLOAD and the Powley Computer suggest 2000 fps should be possible. This would make it a kind of super .303 Savage, a cartridge which had a fine reputation in it's day, which were the same days as your .33 WCF. There are several makers of 250 gn RN bullets, and a few strokes with a file would turn these into 240 gn FN bullets suitable for tubular magazines.

Just some ramblings...

Karl
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2005, 01:59 PM
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Thanks for the input. I have some book loads that were shared with me and was hoping to reduce the amount of work in testing the wide variety. Guess these are a little more rare than I thought. Well I guess I will just have to do more shooting. I have found some loads for 220grn but nothing heavier than that. Next quest will be to locate some moulds to pour my own for it. Thanks for the input.
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  #4  
Old 10-28-2005, 03:12 AM
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Sure Shot,

I have an older Speer (read 1950's vintage) book as well as some other sources of possible loading data that I can try to get for you...all at the house...as soon as I get home tonigt I will try to get those out to you, okay?

D
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  #5  
Old 10-28-2005, 07:07 AM
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I'd suggest going to cast bullets as well, there is no need for jacketed bullets at .33 WCF velocities.

There might be some data in Pet Loads, but I'll have to dig around. Good luck with your project....
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  #6  
Old 10-28-2005, 01:54 PM
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Thanks guys, got to admit load developement is fun anyway, just not during hunting season.
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  #7  
Old 10-28-2005, 04:26 PM
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Okay...finding stuff on this number was kinda hard...so here goes.

Starting load with a 200 gr. jacketed bullet.

IMR4198 34gr and a published velocity of 2091
IMR4064 45gr and a published velocity of 2216
IMR4320 43gr and a published velocity of 2303


Note these are all starting loads as published by Wilf Pyle in Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges. He was using a Winchester '86 and 200 gr. Jacketed FN bullets.

If it were me, I would check out some of BTB's 338 dia bullets...he has a 235 GC'd FN that he states as working well in 33 WCF. I would drop a grain off of the above data when going with a lead bullet...even GC'd. I have some of his goods and I can find no better bullet out there. This isn't shameless advertising, just simple truth. He does a good job.

Hope this helps out.
D
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  #8  
Old 10-29-2005, 04:21 PM
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Be careful with some of that older load book data. They generally used case head expansion to gauge pressures, a method which is rather unreliable.

Sharpe's old reloading book had pressure tested data, but those powders are no longer available.

The .33 WCF is not a high intensity cartridge. Back in 1918, Whelen wrote pressures ran 33 - 35,000 CUP. Running the numbers through a Powley Computer gets an estimate of 35,000 CUP for 200 gn at 2200 fps from a 24 inch barrel. I certainly wouldn't want to go over that in an old 1895 Marlin.
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  #9  
Old 10-29-2005, 06:46 PM
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I'll go out on a limb here and recommend a formula I've never tried...

Were I in your shoes, I'd use Rem. 9.5 LR primers and Hawk 200 gn FP bullets, and I'd start with 40 gn of Varget and work up the charge until the chronograph reads 2180 fps (assuming you have a 24 inch barrel). My second powder choice would be 748, but Varget is supposed to be fairly temperature insensitive.

Where did I get these numbers? Well, that's a long story, but here it goes.

I'm basing these numbers on .300 Savage data from Lyman's 48th Reloading Handbook. The .300 Sav and the .33 WCF are what I call "analogous cartridges."

Both use bullets of similar SD. Equally important, both have nearly the same net case volume relative to the bore cross section. This number is similar to bullet SD. Divide the case volume under the seated bullet by the cross sectional area of the bore and you get a number like SD. I'll call it C/B for "case/bore".

Ideally, if C/B and SD are the same, the same powder produces the same performance (pressure and fps) when you scale the charge weight to bore area. All of the internal ballistics programs, such as QuickLOAD and the Powley Computer display this. You can also find it by playing with numbers from published loads. However, just as the software is not a perfectly reliable source of load data, neither will be this method I'm discussing.

Lyman's data, developed with Rem 9.5 primers, shows that for bullet SD's bracketing that of the 200 gn .33's, Varget gives the lowest pressures in the .300 Savage. With SD .271 bullets, they got better than 2200 fps at 33,000 CUP in a 26" .300 Sav barrel. The SD of your .33 WCF is only .250. With SD .226 bullets, Varget was still the top performer at the lower starting pressures.

The 40 gn charge I suggested is scaled from the .300 Sav starting loads, less about 10% for good measure.

One could scale up as well. The .35 Whelen is analogous, but the pressures are higher than wanted. Still, in the 40,000 CUP range, Varget and 748 were top performers in the Whelen with SD .279 bullets.

As for the 2180 fps, that was the performance of the last SAAMI reference loads. This value is shown in Sharpe's old reloading book. I know 2200 fps is the nominal factory load, but the factory numbers tended to be "optimistic" back in those days.

OK, enough blather from me. Remember -- free advice is worth what you pay for it!

Karl

Last edited by Tailwind; 10-29-2005 at 07:18 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-29-2005, 07:49 PM
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Not trying to start anything here...but there is one thing your forgeting about the 300 Savage case when comparing it to a 33 WCF.

The 300 Savage is, as I look at the case in front of me, dang near straight walled and the shoulder is blown out as far as you can really go and still have the prerequisite neck length for that caliber.

Now...as I look right next to it...at the 33 WCF cartridge...I see more than apples and oranges...the cartridge has a massive taper and a massive base, or "flange" for those who prefer the UK designation.

Base diameter is one of the main factors in coming up with case thrust...which is what this is really about...base and the taper on the case.

the 300 savage was designed to give 30-06 performance in a smaller package...in essence its a hot-rod. So this is a rather poor comparison...

A better comparison...is that of the 348 Winchester and the 33 WCF...both VERY similar cases and case volume. However it was used in the Winchester 71 and became a wildcatters dream when necked up to 458 and 500 diameter...you know them better as the 450 and 500 Alaskan...which brings me to my question...do you use reloading data from a 348? I wouldn't...not even CB data...

Now...as I stated before...this data was for a Winchester Model 86...and ORIGINAL model 86...which is alot more fragile than a well manufactured 1895 I feel.

The only other thing I can offer is this....

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/php...t=3657&start=0

perhaps this will give more confidence in the old rifle.

D
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  #11  
Old 10-29-2005, 08:58 PM
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c.m.: Pressure is the figure of merit. Case shape and design goals don't move bullets. Pressure does. It takes nearly as much pressure today to move a 200 gn bullet in a .33 WCF to 2200 fps as it did in 1902 -- little has changed, except that today the powders are more versatile making the goal easier to attain.

Pressure is largely determined by bullet SD and relative case size. The internal ballistics calculators are reasonably accurate, and their results support this assertion.

The .348 is a better example than I'd have guessed, and I'm glad you brought it up. I ran the numbers and it does "scale" somewhat close to the .33 WCF, but it is a bigger case relative to the bore area. Lyman has no data for it, but Hodgdon does. What do you know? They found Varget was a good performer! BUT, it appears H4350 is viable as well (again, the .348 case is bigger), and H4895 is not unreasonable either. Hodgdon's .348 data hints that traditional .33 WCF performance can be had at about 30,000 CUP with their powders, but I'm skeptical.

Varget seems promising using data from both Lyman and Hodgdon, so I think I'd still go with it, but H4350 would be a sound alternative. It would be reasonable to start (at about 44 gn) with it, and if the case filled before the 2180 fps was reached, then go back and work up with Varget.

Karl

Last edited by Tailwind; 10-30-2005 at 01:30 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-29-2005, 09:23 PM
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Thanks guys. I appreciate the formation. Tailwind I will use a chrony to develope loads. I have time on my hands when hunting season ends in December. I have collected a long time and have a lot of choices so will start low and work up.
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  #13  
Old 10-30-2005, 12:17 AM
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One last thought, H4350 and Varget both seem to be reasonable choices. Working up to 2180 fps with both would be sound, and then use whichever gave the more consistent velocities. Big velocity swing usually go with signficant pressure swings. And if your barrel is shorter than 24", knock some fps off your goal, of course.
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  #14  
Old 10-30-2005, 07:25 AM
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From the 1972 edition of 'Cartridges of the World":

Bullet Powder/grs MV ME
200 4895 47 2420 2608 Max load
200 3031 41 2220 2198 Appox. fact. ballistics
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